johnred Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Is it better to have 2 c4 amps or a c4 amp and audio matrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 With 13 zones of audio you will need 2 C4 amps and the C4 audio matrix. Depending on how many sources you have you could get by with just the 2 amps and split each audio source to each amp. The recommended desigh for 9 to 16 zones is 2 amps and 1 audio matrix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebster Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Given you'll definitely need 2 amps which will give you up to 16 stereo outputs, if you have 8 or fewer sources of audio, then you could use an audio splitter cable to split each source to both amps. If you didn't like the results (which I have tried and seems to work fine) you could always add the matrix switch later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AS2 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Get a matrix switch for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebster Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Andrew and/or Alan, Would you mind explaining to me why you recommend the matrix switch in this situation? Maybe I'm missing something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Andrew and/or Alan, Would you mind explaining to me why you recommend the matrix switch in this situation? Maybe I'm missing something...You need the matrix switch to split each source into each of the two C4 amps. E.G. The output from a Cd player would need to be hooked to both of the C4 amps so you can play that source in all 13 zones. Without the matrix switch the only other way to get the Cd player to both amps is to Y the output of the CD player, which C4 does not recommend. Some people have had luck splitting the source so give it a try as was mentioned. You can always add the matrix later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Andrew and/or Alan' date=' Would you mind explaining to me why you recommend the matrix switch in this situation? Maybe I'm missing something...[/quote']You need the matrix switch to split each source into each of the two C4 amps. E.G. The output from a Cd player would need to be hooked to both of the C4 amps so you can play that source in all 13 zones. Without the matrix switch the only other way to get the Cd player to both amps is to Y the output of the CD player, which C4 does not recommend. Some people have had luck splitting the source so give it a try as was mentioned. You can always add the matrix later.The white paper on design and implementation of large systems specifically shows using a y-cable in this very instance.Who doesn't recommend it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Andrew and/or Alan' date=' Would you mind explaining to me why you recommend the matrix switch in this situation? Maybe I'm missing something...[/quote']You need the matrix switch to split each source into each of the two C4 amps. E.G. The output from a Cd player would need to be hooked to both of the C4 amps so you can play that source in all 13 zones. Without the matrix switch the only other way to get the Cd player to both amps is to Y the output of the CD player, which C4 does not recommend. Some people have had luck splitting the source so give it a try as was mentioned. You can always add the matrix later.The white paper on design and implementation of large systems specifically shows using a y-cable in this very instance.Who doesn't recommend it?I am looking at the March 24 2009 dated document and it shows no such thing. It does show the use of a Y cable or a distribution amp under some designs but not for the design the OP has requested, which is 2 amps for 9 to 16 zones.Now, I agree that there should be no difference in using a Y cable in a 9 to 16 zone design as opposed to a design for 17 to 32 zones but the fact is that C4 does not recommend using a Y cable for a 9 to 16 zone system. As a matter of fact the "Best Practices for System Design & Initial System Installation" on page dated 06-11-07 states the followingUse an Audio Matrix Switcher when using two amps with common sources. This practice allows for aneasier, cleaner installation and ease of programming.o Do NOT use “Y” cables to connect the digital audio outputs of Controllers or SpeakerPoints tomultiple amplifiers, as it does not path properly and the customer will experience problems inattempting multiple streams.o The output of analog sources, such as CD players and tuners, CAN be connected with a “Y”cable to the input of multiple amplifiers. NOTE: This will affect the impedance of the signal.The best practice is to use an Audio Matrix Switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebster Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I have successfully split it to 2 amps using a Y cable. Not for very long so far, just a few weeks, but seems to work just fine.I suspect I lose about 3db of signal by doing so, but can easily make that up by upping the gain on the amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsmolo Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I have successfully split it to 2 16x16 c4 switches using Y cable, system has 23 audio zones. It was before c4 supported more than 1 matrix, before large system design paper and training.Works great, never had problems.check the prices but here is what I usually use, 16x16 matrix and cheaper amps. In that large system I used Niles 12ch amps, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4CPA Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Are these "system design papers" only available to dealers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Are these "system design papers" only available to dealers?Yes, they're in the knowledgebase at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jberger Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I believe the recommendation for using a matrix with 2 amps is based on the way the system switches audio through the shortest path. I seem to recall that during one of the large systems design webcasts, it was mentioned that adding the matrix ensured that the audio paths were always kept correctly via the matrix. If the audio is Y'd out then it becomes much more difficult for the system to track audio paths. It's like the recommendation of one controller per TV, you don't have to do it, but it is the recommended best practice and best supported configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnred Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 So for that many zones I would need 2 amps and 1 matrix, or 2 amps and y-splitter, or 1 amp and 1 matrix? I do not think I am going to have more than 8 audio sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 So for that many zones I would need 2 amps and 1 matrix, or 2 amps and y-splitter, or 1 amp and 1 matrix? I do not think I am going to have more than 8 audio sources.For 13 zones you will need 2 amps (8 zones per amp). If you can Y split your sources you will not need the matrix switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnred Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 Thanks everyone, my dealer is telling me one amp and one matrix. Sounds like he needs to belong to this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsmolo Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 so is it 13 independent zones or 13 rooms but some will be playing together. Lets say kitchen with dining/breakfast, master bedroom with master bath (master suite). Maybe that's what he's planning and you are thinking something else. See if you are on the same page with the lay out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Thanks everyone, my dealer is telling me one amp and one matrix. Sounds like he needs to belong to this forum.It is possible that your dealer is not using the C4 amp but some other 3rd party amp with 13 zones. In this setup the C4 matrix switch might be needed for volume control and input switching.Be aware that the C4 matrix switch does not have the same level of volume control as the C4 amp. You will find that the volume adjustment of the C4 matrix switch is not as fine grained as the C4 amp.It is also possible that the amp your dealer is using can do volume control and the matrix switch is just for switching inputs. In this case be aware that the non-C4 amp might not provide volume level feedback as well as the C4 amp.None of us know what design or products your dealer is using so it is difficult and a bit unfair to your dealer for us to be armchair designers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnred Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 13 rooms generally would be playing the same music, but not always. I doubt that all 13 would come into play. He is quoting me a c4 amp and c4 matrix switch. This his second install and while I do support him I am trying make sure I do not go too far in trusting someone so new to c4. It is quite a huge commitment on my end and I want to get it right from the beginning. Thanks for all the input it really helps give me confidence going forward with c4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebster Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 It could be that there are 8 music zones, and 13 rooms. That means that some of the rooms would be wired together. The C4 amp supports 4 ohm outputs, which is what happens when you wire two 8 ohm speakers together. 5 rooms would have to be wired to play always at the same time as 5 other rooms -- that uses 5 of the 8 amp outputs. That leaves 3 rooms that can be wired alone, for a total of 5+3=8 zones (amp outputs), and 5+5+3=13 rooms.But still don't see the need for the matrix switch in that case, since the C4 amp can switch 8 inputs to its 8 output zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 It also could be that some of those room's zone speakers are being powered from a receiver, or something along those lines, in which case, a matrix switch may be required.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff at Zektor Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 If you're looking for a professional audio switch with some great and very cool features, then please consider taking a look at our product. We now offer an audio only version of our Clarity Elite 8X8 A/V matrix switch. We have a lot of great features including volume, bass, treble & 5 band EQ per zone. Additionally, if you are distributing your audio through an amp as stated, our product has gain control for leveling all of your sources. Here's a quick overview of our features*8 in 8 out stereo L/R analog, Optical or S/PDIF digital audio *Volume, bass, treble & 5 band EQ per zone*Analog to digital,, digital to analog auto conversion*Input/Output gain control *IR, RS232 & TCP/IP control*Universal zone mute*Universal volume adjust*Timed volume fading*Designed, manufactured and supported in the USA*5 year advanced warranty replacementHere's an example of what's possible; you can program our switch to move the audio from one zone to another where you can choose to fade out the volume to mute in a zone you are exiting and fade into the new zone. Fades out in one area and ramps up in the new zone. This can all be done in a single command. Good luck with your project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingerbrown Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I actually have this same situation, 13 zones but I'd like to avoid buying that expensive matrix switch.What if your audio source is simply a hard drive with mp3 files, that connects to the HC-300 via USB? I was under the impression that all of the zones could play this type of source all at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff at Zektor Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Is $1799 MSRP expensive? I think the features and pricing of the new switch blows the doors of just about any competitor in the market when comparing pricing and features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I actually have this same situation, 13 zones but I'd like to avoid buying that expensive matrix switch.What if your audio source is simply a hard drive with mp3 files, that connects to the HC-300 via USB? I was under the impression that all of the zones could play this type of source all at once.In this case you could use 2 C4 amps and take one of the to analog outputs from you controller to each amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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