Advice on HDMI Switching

[ILoveC4]

Well, as we're lumbering closer and closer to moving in to our new house, I'm being forced to make a decision on the video distribution/switching product. I need an 8:8.

I have been eagerly waiting for the new SnapA/V piece (http://www.snapav.com/p-1074-b-300-hdmatrix-8x8.aspx).

Now the Hydraconnect solutions looks great. Combine that switch with some HDBaseT extenders, and it sounds like it would be a real viable option.

The issue is price versus value. I am not someone to skimp and buy cheap stuff, but I also am not one to pay more than I need to in order to get the job done.

I WILL NOT benefit from the built in stereo switching that the Hydraconnect offers. I have conduit ran all over, so I can fish any additional wires I need so while the HDBaseT is cool, I have the capability to run the wires I need to so that may not be a huge benefit.

I haven't measured all of my runs, but I can't imagine any being longer than 150 feet...200 feet max. It looks like the Snap A/V unit has a 60 foot range for 1080p60 36 bit, and 130 foot range for 1080p60 24 bit. Am I going to notice that difference on a 50" Pioneer Elite TV?

I am SO out of touch with HDMI and EDID, HDCP, etc...because I've never needed to figure it out yet. What I don't want is long delays when switching and issues with certain displays being dropped when another display is added. It is not uncommon for us to have 2 or 3 TV's viewing a single source, or for us to turn displays on/off without disrupting the source either...an example would be watching TV in the living room, turning the bedroom on, then the living room off once we're in the bedroom.

What would you guys recommend? I really appreciate all your input. This is an area that I'm not super familiar with so I'm hoping my friends at C4Forums.com can come through with some solid advice.

[diamonddesign]

I'm putting a snap 300 in my home and have 2 presold from guys on here and we are just waiting on the day they release (they told me early April) so by mid april there should be some good feedback on here from at least the 3 of us.

[chesterwilson]

Dan,

Are you going to be using 8 displays right away?

Are any of your outputs going to use 5.1 or greater audio?

[ILoveC4]

Dan,

Are you going to be using 8 displays right away?

Are any of your outputs going to use 5.1 or greater audio?

Right away I will be using 5, with it growing to 8 later this year.

I will only have one zone that will use an AVR, and that will be one of the 3 additional zones that gets added later.

[ILoveC4]

I'm putting a snap 300 in my home and have 2 presold from guys on here and we are just waiting on the day they release (they told me early April) so by mid april there should be some good feedback on here from at least the 3 of us.

I'm looking forward to hearing your feedback. I am 90% certain that's the way to go based on price and convenience, I just want to make sure that there I'm not going to have issues with interruption as displays are added/removed, etc...

EDID, HDCP, etc...it's mostly over my head at this point. I need to start doing some research and figure out what really matters.

[chesterwilson]

I think your on the right track in terms of a 8x8 matrix and HDbaset extenders.

Obviously you will want the extenders to have bidirectional IR (RS232 nad 100Baset really depends on your needs).

The matrix is really the complicated part, I'm sure you will get many suggestions. Keep in mind that the source can only send one type of audio and video signal (i.e. 1080i, 1080p, 720p and stereo vs 5.1). A lot of TV's these days can convert a 5.1 signal into stereo but if they can't than you might be stuck without audio if your EDID is setup this way. It's quite complicated to say the least and I'm sure you will get some wise suggestions in terms of this depending on your setup.

Good Luck

[well_armed]

I have a Snap AV 300 in my house right now.

Thing works great, besides the driver. Coming off standby, the unit doesnt wake up fast enough to hear the command for which channels to set. If its already warmed up and going, it works fine.

I tried calling Snap AV myself, and they said the driver is fine and have been testing it for months. I told them its not fine, and that I have been testing it for weeks. Its a small issue, but otherwise the unit works great. I figure the driver will get updated once enough people get them installed from a dealer, as they wont believe one end user that is for sure.

[ILoveC4]

I have a Snap AV 300 in my house right now.

Thing works great, besides the driver. Coming off standby, the unit doesnt wake up fast enough to hear the command for which channels to set. If its already warmed up and going, it works fine.

I tried calling Snap AV myself, and they said the driver is fine and have been testing it for months. I told them its not fine, and that I have been testing it for weeks. Its a small issue, but otherwise the unit works great. I figure the driver will get updated once enough people get them installed from a dealer, as they wont believe one end user that is for sure.

well_armed, can you go in to more details about what sources and displays you have? Do they all run the same resolution? What resolution? What is switching time like? Do you ever get any hiccups when you add sources?

I also don't know if I understand what you're saying about coming off standby and which channels to set. You mean which input to connect to which output? Is that what you're referring to?

Thanks in advance.

[1949live]

Answers to a couple of your questions:

"Am I going to notice that difference on a 50" Pioneer Elite TV?" With analog extenders of the type used in the SnapAV product, you most likely will. Sparkles and degraded color is usually the symptoms. You really can't push 1080p over analog extenders much over 60-80 feet.

As relates to your resolution question, that is really a function of the EDID generation. With the exception of the HydraConnect product (disclaimer - I work there), all of the other switches mentioned require some manual working to try and get the EDID correct and ensure proper video and audio resolution. The video resolution is not too complex - you need to ensure that all your TVs support 1080p. Any TV made in the last 2-3 years will do so, even if their display capabiltiy is less, like 720p - nearly all down convert themselves. Audio is where it gets messy as there are so many different encoding schemes. If you are going to do it manually, the only real way to do it is to make a big spreadsheet with the capabilities of each audio device and create a common denominator.

HDCP is an issue that effects both the time it takes for video to come up when switching sources, as well as what happens to those sources when adding displays. In the former case, if HDCP has to be done every time a connection is made, it can be as short as 2-4 seconds or as much as 10+ seconds - depends on the gear. In the later case, if HDCP is not done through a pre-authentication process (or illegally ignored), then when you add a display to an existing connection both displays will blank until HDCP is re-done.

Final issue is HDCP key management. This needs to be done in the switch. If not, certain devices, most notably Motorola cable boxes, will not allow you to connect more than one display.

Hope this helps.

[me23]

Dan, what about the atlona 8x8?

[chesterwilson]

Answers to a couple of your questions:

"Am I going to notice that difference on a 50" Pioneer Elite TV?" With analog extenders of the type used in the SnapAV product, you most likely will. Sparkles and degraded color is usually the symptoms. You really can't push 1080p over analog extenders much over 60-80 feet.

As relates to your resolution question, that is really a function of the EDID generation. With the exception of the HydraConnect product (disclaimer - I work there), all of the other switches mentioned require some manual working to try and get the EDID correct and ensure proper video and audio resolution. The video resolution is not too complex - you need to ensure that all your TVs support 1080p. Any TV made in the last 2-3 years will do so, even if their display capabiltiy is less, like 720p - nearly all down convert themselves. Audio is where it gets messy as there are so many different encoding schemes. If you are going to do it manually, the only real way to do it is to make a big spreadsheet with the capabilities of each audio device and create a common denominator.

HDCP is an issue that effects both the time it takes for video to come up when switching sources, as well as what happens to those sources when adding displays. In the former case, if HDCP has to be done every time a connection is made, it can be as short as 2-4 seconds or as much as 10+ seconds - depends on the gear. In the later case, if HDCP is not done through a pre-authentication process (or illegally ignored), then when you add a display to an existing connection both displays will blank until HDCP is re-done.

Final issue is HDCP key management. This needs to be done in the switch. If not, certain devices, most notably Motorola cable boxes, will not allow you to connect more than one display.

Hope this helps.

1949,

How does your device do HDCP and EDID?

[chesterwilson]

I found this video on the HydraConnect matrix, it really is an amazing piece of machinery. If you have the money I would definitely buy this.

[chesterwilson]

http://www.cepro.com/article/print/review_awesome_new_hdmi_audio_switcher_for_control4/

Here is a nice review of the matrix.

Dan, maybe Joe will sell you one,

[1949live]

"1949,

How does your device do HDCP and EDID?"

The HSS-1 does HDCP through a process called pre-authentication. We pre-authenticate the whole system as part of the automatic, 3-button installation setup through the HSS-1's web interface - takes about 10-15 minutes. From then on we have a proprietary process that works instantly to ensure the system stays legal with no delays in video, no loss of video when adding or removing displays, and no limitations on HDCP keys.

EDID management is accomplished automatically by the system as well. When all the devices in a system are turned on as part of the pre-authentication process, the system goes out and reads the EDID from every device, being smart enough to know that some devices are skipped, such as TVs with no AVRs. It then generates a proper subset of all available EDIDs so you get maximum audio performance. I have attached a sample EDID from my home system that has 2 Sony AVRs, a Pioneer, and an Integra so you can see how complex a development this is.

[ILoveC4]

Dan, what about the atlona 8x8?

That is definitely something i would consider as well. They have one that is actually LESS expensive than the Hydraconnect and has HDBaseT outputs directly from the switch! That seems incredibly convenient. I would love to get some input on that.

1949live, do you plan on releasing a version of your product that does not have the built in stereo switch as well? I personally do not need that. Just curious if that is in the works.

[chesterwilson]

Dan' date=' what about the atlona 8x8?[/quote']

That is definitely something i would consider as well. They have one that is actually LESS expensive than the Hydraconnect and has HDBaseT outputs directly from the switch! That seems incredibly convenient. I would love to get some input on that.

1949live, do you plan on releasing a version of your product that does not have the built in stereo switch as well? I personally do not need that. Just curious if that is in the works.

You still need a receiver with the hdbaset matrix by atlona, and to the best of my knowledge that's not included.

[chesterwilson]

Dan' date=' what about the atlona 8x8?[/quote']

That is definitely something i would consider as well. They have one that is actually LESS expensive than the Hydraconnect and has HDBaseT outputs directly from the switch! That seems incredibly convenient. I would love to get some input on that.

1949live, do you plan on releasing a version of your product that does not have the built in stereo switch as well? I personally do not need that. Just curious if that is in the works.

Yeah a lite version of this would be ideal, though I don't know how much that will impact a $9k bottom line, ouch.

[xc420]

Is video loss really a problem when switching to a source that's already in use? I'm not so sure that very may switchers are effected by this. Even cheap switchers don't seem to have this issue. Is this marketing rhetoric or a real concern?

[chesterwilson]

Is video loss really a problem when switching to a source that's already in use? I'm not so sure that very may switchers are effected by this. Even cheap switchers don't seem to have this issue. Is this marketing rhetoric or a real concern?

If all your displays are equal resolution wise it really shouldn't, audio is entirely a different story.

[1949live]

The Atlona product does not include the receivers. The decision as to whether or not to include CAT transmitters inside a switch is based on where you believe your target market is. If the market is systems that do not have AVRs in the rack, inclusion of the transmitters makes sense. If your market target will usually include AVRs in the rack, then the inclusion of transmitters is a problem as you need a receiver 2' away to convert the CAT to HDMI to run into your AVR. Dan will have to do this on the channel that feeds his AVR. Hence the HSS-1 does not have CAT transmitters, and the Atlona product does as they target different installations. Where we gain back the cost of the discrete transmitters is that we do not need all the C4 gear to drive IR blasters (since we use CEC) and all the wiring to support that.

In answer to the question about eliminating the stereo matrix from our product, no we have no plans to do so.

[chesterwilson]

1949,

Lets say I have one source outputting simultaneously to a tv (stereo that cannot convert 5.1 to stereo) and an AVR (5.1), from my understanding the only 2 options are to output audio in stereo or have a seperate set of coax audio cables to the AVR with any other matrix. Is that correct and is it also hold true for your matrix?

[1949live]

Is video loss really a problem when switching to a source that's already in use? I'm not so sure that very may switchers are effected by this. Even cheap switchers don't seem to have this issue. Is this marketing rhetoric or a real concern?

It is not marketing hype. The reason you may not always see it is that it is an HDCP issue, not an HDMI issue. Unless you are watching a protected source, like a BluRay disk or a PPV channel, you will not see this problem. But the way HDCP works is as follows. When a source and a display sync up with HDCP (for protected content), they are required to stop the data stream (video and audio), perform the encryption handshake, and when the source is satisfied that it has a good encryption handshake, it will start the data stream. When a new display is added to the connection, the source will detect this. It will then stop the data stream, perform the HDCP handshake with each of the two displays, and once it is again satisfied that encryption is good, will resume the data stream. A switch that sits between the source and the displays can either do nothing (the most frequent case) in which the video will function as I described, do something illegal (which some do) and ignore HDCP, or do the magic that very few switches like the HSS-1 do and keep HDCP running but ensure that there is no loss of data stream.

[1949live]

1949,

Lets say I have one source outputting simultaneously to a tv (stereo that cannot convert 5.1 to stereo) and an AVR (5.1), from my understanding the only 2 options are to output audio in stereo or have a seperate set of coax audio cables to the AVR with any other matrix. Is that correct and is it also hold true for your matrix?

Not quite. You are correct in your basic premise. The source can only output on the HDMI stream one audio encoding. Hence if you want to connect both a TV (using stereo from its HDMI connection) and an AVR (wanting 5.1 encoding) from a common data stream, you will only get stereo at the receiver. When building these kinds of systems there are really two rules you have to follow:

1. You cannot use the TVs speakers, which are usually lousy anyhow. Reason is as stated above - you cannot dumb down the HDMI data stream to stereo.

2. You have to use speakers in any room where you want stereo, even if there is a TV there. That is how you can "cheat" the audio source. You pick up multichannel audio from the HDMI data stream, and stereo from the R-L jacks on the source. That is why we include a stereo matrix in out product - it handles the stereo and the HDMI matrix handles the video and multichannel audio.

Hence the right way to do it is to let the AVR get its audio from the HDMI data stream, not from a TOSlink type connection, and use a separate stereo audio channel. Reason for this is if you do eventually want some of the newer and more complex audio encodings, like 7.1, you cannot get those from anything but the HDMI data stream.

[chesterwilson]

1949' date='

Lets say I have one source outputting simultaneously to a tv (stereo that cannot convert 5.1 to stereo) and an AVR (5.1), from my understanding the only 2 options are to output audio in stereo or have a seperate set of coax audio cables to the AVR with any other matrix. Is that correct and is it also hold true for your matrix?[/quote']

Not quite. You are correct in your basic premise. The source can only output on the HDMI stream one audio encoding. Hence if you want to connect both a TV (using stereo from its HDMI connection) and an AVR (wanting 5.1 encoding) from a common data stream, you will only get stereo at the receiver. When building these kinds of systems there are really two rules you have to follow:

1. You cannot use the TVs speakers, which are usually lousy anyhow. Reason is as stated above - you cannot dumb down the HDMI data stream to stereo.

2. You have to use speakers in any room where you want stereo, even if there is a TV there. That is how you can "cheat" the audio source. You pick up multichannel audio from the HDMI data stream, and stereo from the R-L jacks on the source. That is why we include a stereo matrix in out product - it handles the stereo and the HDMI matrix handles the video and multichannel audio.

Hence the right way to do it is to let the AVR get its audio from the HDMI data stream, not from a TOSlink type connection, and use a separate stereo audio channel. Reason for this is if you do eventually want some of the newer and more complex audio encodings, like 7.1, you cannot get those from anything but the HDMI data stream.

So if I have a room without speakers and want to use the TV speakers it better be able to convert the 5.1 or 7.1 to stereo right?

If so is there any easy way to know if your display will do this?

[1949live]

Just check the manual. The spec section will always tell you what audio formats it will support. But there are some really nice sound bars out there today that are really a good substitute for in-ceiling speakers if that is an issue. And they are pretty attractive and match up with the TV. TV speakers are really poor, and getting even worse as TVs get flatter. Speakers need depth to have a cone that can move properly to produce quality sound. Can't really get that in flat screen 1" thick TVs.