Cyknight Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yeah one cat 5 is fine - no need to twist them, single strand is enough. Need 3 per relay, so 6 total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 So here's what you do - the two wires going to the VALVE go to a COM port on a relay.Wether you use a poewrsupply or battery makes no difference - Feed the negative to one relay's NC, positive to NO.Now jump a wire from the first relay NC to second relay NC and the same for NO. This is the wiring portion. If you want you CAN still leave the log connected this way - just keep in mind that it would mess with the current state display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Programming wise you'll need 3 relays, One fireplace (virtually connected to ANOTHER 'free' relay, say on the 300 you have). This will give you your nice fireplace display. Leave this on toggle.The two generic relays, connected to the appropriate 800 relays, named ON and OFF. These must be PULSE relays Now, in programming you'd do:WHEN fireplace changes state:delay 100msIF fireplace is on-toggle relay ONIF fireplace is off-toggle relay OFF That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LaBelle Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 O.k.. here goes my attempt at drawing up your instructions. By the way, thanks so much for this. My wife will be so happy if I can fix this. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 You have both red and black from the valve going to ONE COM port, they need to go to one each. Take the black from the valve, go to the COM port on relay 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LaBelle Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Got it. Fished the Cat5e up to the fireplace from the rack in the theater and got everything hooked up on the fireplace side. Just realized that the dealer who installed my HC-800 originally, never left me with any terminal blocks. Argh! Well, I got all the wires run and the programming done. Now to get some terminal blocks. Anyone know where I can get them? My old dealer is a TOOL and I'm not calling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LaBelle Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Well after three months and many, many troubleshooting sessions - CyKnight - the "Master Builder", as my kid's would say, has solved the Fireplace issue and we now have complete, consistent, accurate and safe control of my fireplace! Just a quick shoutout to the time CyKnight spent on this and the creativity that was used. Truly a blessing! I hope this thread helps anyone that might have a latch valve type fireplace, because it was a pain in the arse! Thanks CyKnight! My wife is now quite happy and I bet I'm saving about $100 a month because the kids can't leave the fireplace on anymore. :-) Final Solution for Posterity: 4 conductor thermostat wire run from the fireplace valve to the HC-800 Relays and then wired according to the diagram above, but with the Black wire from the fireplace valve going to the COM on Relay 2. Other than that... an elegant solution, to what I thought was an impossible integration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 YW Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 You just threw me for a loop for a bit with that busted wire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LaBelle Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 yeah, very strange. Quite frankly I hate working with CAT5 for something like that - too fragile. The tstat wire was perfect - worked first time after a long pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfw0823 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I was just browsing through this post and I think I have the exact same gas log kit with that switch. I didn't have the ability to pull wire into my fireplace so I needed a completely battery powered solution. I had the CA relay and installed a 24 VDC battery behind the firelog and protected it with fire brick. I wired the CA relay contacts in parallel across the switch. I do have to periodically charge the battery to keep the CA powered up but it works perfectly. The switch is my backup in case something goes down, but it works perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcovach Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 On 12/9/2014 at 1:57 AM, Cyknight said: So here's what you do - the two wires going to the VALVE go to a COM port on a relay. Wether you use a poewrsupply or battery makes no difference - Feed the negative to one relay's NC, positive to NO. Now jump a wire from the first relay NC to second relay NC and the same for NO. This is the wiring portion. If you want you CAN still leave the log connected this way - just keep in mind that it would mess with the current state display. On 12/9/2014 at 2:03 AM, Cyknight said: Programming wise you'll need 3 relays, One fireplace (virtually connected to ANOTHER 'free' relay, say on the 300 you have). This will give you your nice fireplace display. Leave this on toggle. The two generic relays, connected to the appropriate 800 relays, named ON and OFF. These must be PULSE relays Now, in programming you'd do: WHEN fireplace changes state: delay 100ms IF fireplace is on -toggle relay ON IF fireplace is off -toggle relay OFF That's it. Sorry to bring this up but I haven't been able to find the best post to help me integrate my gas fireplace, however, I was impressed by this thread. My gas fireplace has a millivolt valve to be connected to either a physical ON/OFF switch or a thermostat. My remote thermostat has a physical ON, OFF, and THERMOSTAT setting so I'd like to use it. Its not too late to run a LV wire from the fireplace to a controller with relays but my question is how do I include the thermostat in the wiring, relays, and programming. eg. If I physically switch the thermostat to ON, or to THERMOSTAT setting, how will that state be in sync with C4? Or if the thermostat is physically turned OFF, will the toggle or ON switch never actually show "ON" in C4 even when attempting to turn on by touch screen? Simply... in the drawing above, do I replace the battery with a thermostat and copy the same programming and wiring in this post for each of the 2 physical relays I'm using? Thanks for you help.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 No, what you're looking for is quite different. The question is what do you TRULY want to have happen here. For example you may primarily want to use the T-STAT for temp controlled fireplace on/off - not to 'just' turn the fireplace on and off. Then Have C4 'control' whether or not the t-stat is active in turning the fire place on and off. That's likely possible to do. Going full tilt, and have the ability to turn on/off from C4, and on/off AND tstat from the tstat AND have it all in synch.....probably not feasible (rarely impossible, but it may be more feasible to replace the whole fireplace, use a C4 tstat and relays and so on....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcovach Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 30 minutes ago, Cyknight said: No, what you're looking for is quite different. The question is what do you TRULY want to have happen here. For example you may primarily want to use the T-STAT for temp controlled fireplace on/off - not to 'just' turn the fireplace on and off. Then Have C4 'control' whether or not the t-stat is active in turning the fire place on and off. That's likely possible to do. Going full tilt, and have the ability to turn on/off from C4, and on/off AND tstat from the tstat AND have it all in synch.....probably not feasible (rarely impossible, but it may be more feasible to replace the whole fireplace, use a C4 tstat and relays and so on....) Thanks for confirming this for me.... My mind was spinning on how it was going to work before even trying it. I know a C4 thermostat is the best way to go but I don't want to take the easy way out yet. I just want something safe with accurate status on the C4 system (as does anyone else). I want to be able to assign a button press somewhere in a convenient location in the house (physical, virtual, or through a scene toggle) to turn on/off the fireplace based on whether the temp of the room is below the minimum set on the non C4 thermostat. Maybe this is more achievable.... but not sure how. So then... can you spell it out for me. You know the scenario. Since its wise to have a physical ON/OFF switch, I plan to use the fireplace thermostat for the physical ON/OFF feature. I may or may not care for the thermostat feature (there is a C4 thermostat in another room 20 feet way so I could use that for temp control anyways so I could program off of that). How would I wire the fireplace valve to the thermostat to a c4 relay and back to the valve. Maybe I just answered my question but is this achieved by running the LV wire in series to just one relay? I would leave the fireplace thermostat to the ON position so that the fireplace status is ready to go and in sync when I do a fireplace button press somewhere in the system. I understand that it will be out of sync if I manually turn OFF the fireplace and try to fire the fireplace with a c4 button press. Correct? Is there such a thing as a relay or a contact sensor that can detect whether the fireplace thermostat circuit is open or closed (ON or OFF)? EG, I manually flip the switch from OFF to ON and there is some sort of voltage reading that is detected by a relay or sensor.... I'm not familliar how control 4 monitors relays. If I'm looking for a complex work around to save a few bucks instead of going with the sure winner (another C4 thermostat) just say so..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 8 hours ago, dcovach said: to turn on/off the fireplace based on whether the temp of the room is below the minimum set on the non C4 thermostat. Maybe this is more achievable.... but not sure how. Yes you can. The trick is simply to have the relay in line with the T-Stat's trigger wire - and have the Tstat then set to 'temperature' mode at all times. This then creates a situation where 'C4' turns on and off the ability for the thermostat to trigger the fireplace to be on. Yes that means no more 'direct' on control for C4. As for monitoring if the Tstat is on or off - the relays have no sensing in them, however, based on the voltage a parallel wire could be installed to a C4 contact input or a 3rd party sensor for feedback. That said, you're not only going into some out-of-the-box wiring, but also programming in order to properly show the state. Easier (less hard) is to have C4 set the fireplace on automatically if you set the tstat to 'om' with all the above. Note that going with a C4 tstat may not even be an 'easy' option. It all depends on the voltage that's coming out of the fireplace trigger. Honestly - if you were to ask me I couldn't care less for a fireplace on a t-stat at all. I have that thing on because I like the fireplace - not to use it to heat the house. I would (and do) jsut have an override under my 'normal' tstats that is the temperature gets to high it gets shut off as an extra safety feature..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcovach Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Cyknight said: The trick is simply to have the relay in line with the T-Stat's trigger wire - and have the Tstat then set to 'temperature' mode at all times. This seems pretty straight forward and will probably do it this way but.... 3 hours ago, Cyknight said: As for monitoring if the Tstat is on or off - the relays have no sensing in them, however, based on the voltage a parallel wire could be installed to a C4 contact input or a 3rd party sensor for feedback. That said, you're not only going into some out-of-the-box wiring, but also programming in order to properly show the state. Easier (less hard) is to have C4 set the fireplace on automatically if you set the tstat to 'om' with all the above. If I wired the tstat in parallel to a contact input on a c4 controller, how would I program this to reflect if the thermostat is 'ON'? I looked at the programming for the contact input and there is an IF statement for 'State is Verified'. I've never used that before. Is this what would detect voltage across the tstat when the contact input is closed? Or would I see the true state of the tstat circuit by verifying the status using the SMTP agent? I'm curious about this setup because it will help me tie in a manual on/off while maintaining a synced status of the fireplace being on or off. Mind going over the wiring part of this too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 You'd simply program that if that sensor was 'closed' to turn on the fireplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 As for wiring, you first need to know the voltage coming out of the tstat, if 12v it's simple enough, you'd wire to SIG and done. If 10-14v you could try the same. If more than that it might get a lot more complex and you'd have to use an additional relay (non C4, just a basic standalone relay) to create a circuit for your contact to sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcovach Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 On 10/28/2016 at 9:41 AM, Cyknight said: You'd simply program that if that sensor was 'closed' to turn on the fireplace. On 10/28/2016 at 9:43 AM, Cyknight said: As for wiring, you first need to know the voltage coming out of the tstat, if 12v it's simple enough, you'd wire to SIG and done. If 10-14v you could try the same. If more than that it might get a lot more complex and you'd have to use an additional relay (non C4, just a basic standalone relay) to create a circuit for your contact to sense. This is good. To review.... I get the option to manually shut off the fireplace (for safety during off season or when on vacation) but turn on with c4 control when in the Tstat is enabled or in the ON position AND when the contact sensor detects a signal? The programming seems easy enough for me. The thermostat runs on 4 AA batteries so the contact sensor would detect approx 6 volts? Maybe its lower once it passes through the circuit board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 3 hours ago, dcovach said: I get the option to manually shut off the fireplace (for safety during off season or when on vacation) but turn on with c4 control when in the Tstat is enabled Correct to here, with the wiring as suggested setting the tstat to OFF will prevent the fireplace from being turned on via C4 Quote or in the ON position AND when the contact sensor detects a signal? Not quite - to be clear, with a sensor in place, setting it to ON will turn the fireplace on. I should say that there is one big caveat here - and that is the tstat itself. It will HAVE to have separate poles for 'tstat' and on - or ANYtime it's on ON OR TSTAT and temp is below tstat setting, the fireplace would turn on. In essence defeating the shole C4 integration to begin with. 3 hours ago, dcovach said: The thermostat runs on 4 AA batteries so the contact sensor would detect approx 6 volts? Maybe its lower once it passes through the circuit board I could drop, it's also very possible (even likely) that the tstat doesn't supply the power at all, but that the wire going to it is (or is the neautral cut for the contact zensor on the fireplace itself. Only way to really know is either find it in the docs for your fireplace, or use a voltage meter. One more thing - to make your life a lot easier, and retain a manual on/off switch, it's probably better to just run a switch or manual toggle in parallel to the tstat, and leave it either underneath the fireplace or somewhere out of site in a closet. I'd also check, because it's likely the fireplace itself already has an override switch in parallel built in. This vs a sensor and programming. In general, I'm all for back-up options. But sometimes the amount of requests on here for that sort of thing surprises me - these are BACKUP options - in case of a system down, which -frankly- should be a very rare occurrence (and in my experience on a few hundred systems really IS rare). Can't help but wonder about the quality of install etc - or if things like frequent power outs and such are the cause, fix the cause, not the symptom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koxkp Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Would this be on advantage of getting the ecobee driver I've been holding out on? I want to be able to turn off the fireplace when the room gets to the desired temp. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcovach Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 18 hours ago, Cyknight said: 22 hours ago, dcovach said: The thermostat runs on 4 AA batteries so the contact sensor would detect approx 6 volts? Maybe its lower once it passes through the circuit board I could drop, it's also very possible (even likely) that the tstat doesn't supply the power at all, but that the wire going to it is (or is the neautral cut for the contact zensor on the fireplace itself. Only way to really know is either find it in the docs for your fireplace, or use a voltage meter. I appreciate the help you're providing, especially at this depth. This is where I think the voltage comes from at the fireplace side...... The millivolt of the fireplace has a generator that provides voltage for itself WHEN THE PILOT IS LIT. The small amount of heat from that flame is converted to the voltage needed to 'close' the circuit of the minivolt system. However, there has to be an ON/OFF switch of some sort in between. With a tstat connected in series, that becomes my ON/OFF switch. Depends if I select OFF, ON or a temp setting that hasn't been reached yet. Most people leave the pilot flame burning all year round (burns only pennies worth of gas per year... so they say) so there is ON/OFF control at any time with a switch (tstat) connected in series. Usually that is mounted in a convenient or smart location that doesn't interfere with the tstat connected to the main source of heat (furnace). If the pilot flame is OFF, there is no way to turn the fireplace ON UNLESS there is an electronic igniter. Mine does not have the electronic igniter so I would keep the pilot flame burning during the cold seasons and off in the warmer. I don't know if I'm saving any money. I would relight it manually in the fall by turning the gas knob to pilot, press the bbq style clicker (mounted at the fireplace) and turning the gas knob to ON once the flame is burning steady. There is an off for the gas too. This type of millivolt system is great for when there is a power failure because it only needs the heat of the pilot/fireplace flame to keep the circuit to be closed. It does not need power from the main panel. As long as the tstat batteries are fresh and set to ON or set to a temp that hasn't been reached yet, the fire will keep burning. The blower fan won't run because it needs 110v but the flame will keep burning. A basic on/off switch or tstat brings the flame back to a pilot size when turning to the off position. If the tstat batteries die, the flame drops down to a pilot size. Nothing turns OFF the pilot flame until the manual knob is rotated to OFF or if you didn't pay your gas bill lately. I'm hoping that the relay of a C4 controller automatically reverts to the OPEN position during a power or controller failure? If so, then I'd feel safer using the just relay of the c4 controller to turn on the fireplace. Regardless, I still like your idea of using a contact sensor (connected to the tstat and sig of the controller) and then to a c4 relay in series. I'd program the relay to turn on the fireplace based on whether there is a signal at the contact sensor. If there isn't a signal at the contact sensor, I would have a message display at a touch screen or have an audible voice or lights flash to indicate that the tstat is either off, or temp is not set right, or the pilot flame at the fireplace needs to be lit. Basically a reminder message so my wife doesn't have to call me because she can't figure out why the fireplace isn't starting. Or..... for me too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcovach Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 9 hours ago, koxkp said: Would this be on advantage of getting the ecobee driver I've been holding out on? I want to be able to turn off the fireplace when the room gets to the desired temp. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I like thermostats for temp control, even for gas or electric appliances. Its like an off switch too. It also depends how well you know your fireplace and how it works. Are you planning to wire the fireplace to a c4 relay and use the ecobee as a thermostat? or wire the fireplace directly to the thermostat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koxkp Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 I like thermostats for temp control, even for gas or electric appliances. Its like an off switch too. It also depends how well you know your fireplace and how it works. Are you planning to wire the fireplace to a c4 relay and use the ecobee as a thermostat? or wire the fireplace directly to the thermostat? Not even sure yet. Still not sure what is more useful/easier. I was thinking wire to a relay and use the just use the thermostat to check temps. The couple times I've used the fireplace so far I heats thinks up pretty quickly so I thought it could be nice to have an auto-off of some kind. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcovach Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 3 hours ago, koxkp said: Not even sure yet. Still not sure what is more useful/easier. I was thinking wire to a relay and use the just use the thermostat to check temps. The couple times I've used the fireplace so far I heats thinks up pretty quickly so I thought it could be nice to have an auto-off of some kind. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk You could program a timer to start when the fireplace turns on, and turn the fireplace off when the timer expires. You have HE so you could do that on your own. Add the timer agent and create a timer there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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