TV Picture Blinks Related to Room Lights???

[FLA]

So I have been plagued with our Master bedroom TV blinking on and off. My dealer said he was going to change the Balun.

 

Tonight I found a correlation that when our LED Nora Diamond II can lights were fully on was when the TV was blinking. When I turned the lights off the TV stopped blinking. When I dimmed the lights halfway up the TV still did not blink. It only blinked when the lights were fully on. After several minutes of the lights off and no blinking I turned the lights all the way up again and the TV did not blink. I could not leave the lights fully on for long because my wife was sleeping and if I were to wake her she would have kicked but. 

 

Does anybody have a clue to what could be going on and how my dealer can fix the problem. It seems intermittent even though I seem to have a handle on what is causing the problem. Oh and by the way when I turn on the bathroom panasonic exhaust fan the TV blinks off when I turn the fan switch off ??? More voodoo!

[Matt]

Sounds like you may be having a grounding issue/loop. Which switch/baluns are you using? 

Matt
 

[Cyknight]

Or TV/balun on the same circuit as the dimmer. Seen that cause issues on occasion too

[FLA]

Sounds like you may be having a grounding issue/loop. Which switch/baluns are you using? 

Matt

 

 

 

Or TV/balun on the same circuit as the dimmer. Seen that cause issues on occasion too

So what happens if the electrician and C4 dealer blew it and they can't put the TV on a seperate/different circuit? Is there any kind of Balun that has a special filter or a filter for the electrical outlet???

[Cyknight]

It's usually the balun, and a balun is powered low-voltage. In that scenario, if you have a pair of extra strands at the location, it's possible to re-run the power over it to the rack, power it from there.

[FLA]

It's usually the balun, and a balun is powered low-voltage. In that scenario, if you have a pair of extra strands at the location, it's possible to re-run the power over it to the rack, power it from there.

Dealer says it is already connected to the rack. He thinks it"s an EMS problem. Of course I'm not sure what an EMS problem is other than electrical interference. He thinks a dimmer might not be fully grounded. Sorry but I forgot to mention one other symtom. When I turn on the bathroom exhaust fan there is no effect on the TV, but when I turn the switch off for the fan the TV Blinks off.?????

[Cyknight]

I have no clue what EMS is at all regarding this situation, most common use for EMS is Emergency Medical Services that I'm aware of...doubt that is you problem though.

But I assume he means EMF? That's rather unlikely actually - especially if it is indeed an HDBaseT balun.

 

The fan issue is little different - my bet is still on the balun (possibly the TV) being on the same circuit. I've seen it plenty of times - extra outlet needed for a TV in master, afterthought or forgotten and now a wire is pulled from the ensuite or a nearby lightswitch. For some a fan (also seen it with as stated dimmers, exercise equipment, respiratory systems [i was really upset on that one actually - that was supposed to be on a dedicated circuit!], electric controlled beds, electric blankets....you get the idea) does it on ON, some on OFF, some both, some while it's running. Theres a drop in voltage causeing the balun's powersupply to not have enough juice for a second.

 

Frankly though, it makes me wonder about the balun - few HDBaseT baluns are powered remotely by default (not that it doesn't exist) - lots of older type baluns were (or required power only at the transmitter, receiver being passive) - so what do you have?

[Brownbatsbreath]

I did the electric on a job where the AV installer had this same problem. In this case it was the signal over the balun blinking off and then back on when the broan bath fan was turned off. In this case the bath fan was on a circuit with the bathroom lights, and the tv was on a different circuit with just the master bath. He was using atlona baluns powered only on the rack end from the rack power. Another separate circuit. 

 

Of course after i proved all of this and 'blame sparky' wasnt an option anymore, i havent heard how or even if they've fixed it. I know, not so helpful, but i can at least say I've seen this happen when the power was coming from separate circuits. 

[Cyknight]

He was using atlona baluns powered only on the rack end

I suspect I know exactly what baluns those were - and they are NOT HDBaseT.

 

'blame sparky'

Very often, it's builders, or indeed poor info from the integrator, that is at the hart of things. In one scenario one could even blame the home-owner who didn't pass on the info needed. In another 'sparky' overloaded every circuit causing issues all over the house of a similar nature (how that ever passed inspection I don't know), and in yet another the issue was that the actual voltage to the circuits was way to low so almost anything, anywhere of some wattage kicking in would cause havoc quite like the thread mentions across the house - nothing to do with 'sparky' at all - but the provider - but blame 'anyone' is useless anyway, solutions are far more functional.

 

Finding the root cause is important though - and most often that I've seen it's because the wrong combination of devices are on a circuit  - no blame intended , but a likely point of failure and the one to start investigating first.

As I've mentioned before, a decent pre-wire should inclue some spare wire runs, use one to take the balun power away from the room and to the rack - a 'minor' hack but fairly simple to execute and that is reasonably likely to give result.

 

Of course if this is NOT "HD over IP" or HDBaseT, rip it out and start with that.

[FLA]

I have no clue what EMS is at all regarding this situation, most common use for EMS is Emergency Medical Services that I'm aware of...doubt that is you problem though.

But I assume he means EMF? That's rather unlikely actually - especially if it is indeed an HDBaseT balun.

 

Hahaha EMS how lame. Sorry he did say EMF and he said it was a HDBaseT balun powered by the rack

 

The fan issue is little different - my bet is still on the balun (possibly the TV) being on the same circuit. I've seen it plenty of times - extra outlet needed for a TV in master, afterthought or forgotten and now a wire is pulled from the ensuite or a nearby lightswitch. For some a fan (also seen it with as stated dimmers, exercise equipment, respiratory systems [i was really upset on that one actually - that was supposed to be on a dedicated circuit!], electric controlled beds, electric blankets....you get the idea) does it on ON, some on OFF, some both, some while it's running. Theres a drop in voltage causeing the balun's powersupply to not have enough juice for a second.

 

The bathroom fan is on the opposite side of the wall from the TV. The fan switch is on a two gang switch the other switch being shower lights which seem to have not effect on the TV

 

Frankly though, it makes me wonder about the balun - few HDBaseT baluns are powered remotely by default (not that it doesn't exist) - lots of older type baluns were (or required power only at the transmitter, receiver being passive) - so what do you have?

 

Dealer says it is a HDBaseT balun powered by the rack. I will confirm tomorrow.

 

 

I did the electric on a job where the AV installer had this same problem. In this case it was the signal over the balun blinking off and then back on when the broan bath fan was turned off. In this case the bath fan was on a circuit with the bathroom lights, and the tv was on a different circuit with just the master bath. He was using atlona baluns powered only on the rack end from the rack power. Another separate circuit. 

 

So you're saying that in this case it was EMF from the fan?

 

Of course after i proved all of this and 'blame sparky' wasnt an option anymore, i havent heard how or even if they've fixed it. I know, not so helpful, but i can at least say I've seen this happen when the power was coming from separate circuits. 

 

 

I suspect I know exactly what baluns those were - and they are NOT HDBaseT.

 

Very often, it's builders, or indeed poor info from the integrator, that is at the hart of things. In one scenario one could even blame the home-owner who didn't pass on the info needed. In another 'sparky' overloaded every circuit causing issues all over the house of a similar nature (how that ever passed inspection I don't know), and in yet another the issue was that the actual voltage to the circuits was way to low so almost anything, anywhere of some wattage kicking in would cause havoc quite like the thread mentions across the house - nothing to do with 'sparky' at all - but the provider - but blame 'anyone' is useless anyway, solutions are far more functional.

 

In my case Sparky and AV"s companies were related and my job was from studs up so they were supposed to confer but you're right blame doesn't matter at this point.

 

Finding the root cause is important though - and most often that I've seen it's because the wrong combination of devices are on a circuit  - no blame intended , but a likely point of failure and the one to start investigating first.

As I've mentioned before, a decent pre-wire should inclue some spare wire runs, use one to take the balun power away from the room and to the rack - a 'minor' hack but fairly simple to execute and that is reasonably likely to give result.

 

I would venture to say my pre-wire has some spares but my dealer says that the balun is already running to the rack.

 

Of course if this is NOT "HD over IP" or HDBaseT, rip it out and start with that.

 

He says it is HDBaseT but I will confirm tomorrow. What is "HD over IP" ? This is the first time I have heard about that.

Cy I want to thank you for your replies. I respect your knowledge and appreciate your help.

 

[Cyknight]

^ "HD over IP" is a generic term/made up term for some of the current 'other' solution from HDBaseT - such as JAP or VideoStorm's solution which use a network based distribution (as in using actual networks, network switches etc.

Both these and HDBaseT are proven, reliable and not all that affected by numerous forms of interference.

 

And no, the fan had nothing to do with EMF - pure power drop/spike on start/stop.

 

EMF - if using the above mentioned two mainstream solutions - is not very likely, because neither is prone to be affected by that at all. TVs aren't all that sensitive to it either, though I'm not ruling out the possibility that the issue is there.

[Brownbatsbreath]

Yeah, I was just suggesting that separating circuits may not solve it. In the vey similar case I saw it didn't make a difference. Only loads powered at the time were the fan, on one circuit, the TV on a second, and the rack equipment on a 3rd circuit. Cy's suggestion of a locally powered receiver balun sounds like a great suggestion.

[Godzilla]

ive had this problem a few times and an Atlona balun fixed it

[FLA]

^ "HD over IP" is a generic term/made up term for some of the current 'other' solution from HDBaseT - such as JAP or VideoStorm's solution which use a network based distribution (as in using actual networks, network switches etc.

Both these and HDBaseT are proven, reliable and not all that affected by numerous forms of interference.

 

And no, the fan had nothing to do with EMF - pure power drop/spike on start/stop.

 

EMF - if using the above mentioned two mainstream solutions - is not very likely, because neither is prone to be affected by that at all. TVs aren't all that sensitive to it either, though I'm not ruling out the possibility that the issue is there.

So my dealer said that it is a HDBaseT balun although he said it is not the latest model that came out several months ago. He said if he used that one he would have to change my Matrix to work with it. ?????? He also said that the current balun is powered at the room not powered at the rack as I thought he said yesterday. He said we have an extra Cat5 that he can run to the rack and get clean power. He also said there was some device that he can put in the wall. It sounded like some type of filter or something to that effect but I can't be sure at this time. His first choice is to have sparky see if he can fix the circuit problem. All of this does not cover the 6 led can lights on the Lutron Maestro dimmer that also has been causing the picture to blink. He did say that he wants sparky to check for a loose ground wire on the dimmer itself. The odd thing that I'm puzzled about is that the lights/dimmer are having no effect on the TV tonight. The fan still causes the TV to black out.

 

Yeah, I was just suggesting that separating circuits may not solve it. In the vey similar case I saw it didn't make a difference. Only loads powered at the time were the fan, on one circuit, the TV on a second, and the rack equipment on a 3rd circuit. Cy's suggestion of a locally powered receiver balun sounds like a great suggestion.

Unfortunately per my message above my dealer says it is currently locally powered. He might try to power it from the rack with an extra Cat 5 that he says is there.

 

ive had this problem a few times and an Atlona balun fixed it

I'll definitely mention the Atlona to the dealer

[FLA]

So the dealer tried to use the extra Cat 5 and run it directly to the rack. No luck TV still reacted with fan switch. Tomorrow Sparky is coming, we'll see what happens. Forgot to mention the Atlona. I will ask tomorrow

[thecodeman]

I have had this at my house due to some close runs with electrical that I couldn't avoid in the retro. Even HDBaseT baluns flicker. The only one that did not was switching them for Just Add Power TX and RX units and using it as a dummy balun setup - it isn't as prone to EMI. Your mileage may vary.

[FLA]

I have had this at my house due to some close runs with electrical that I couldn't avoid in the retro. Even HDBaseT baluns flicker. The only one that did not was switching them for Just Add Power TX and RX units and using it as a dummy balun setup - it isn't as prone to EMI. Your mileage may vary.

 

Sparky changed two circuit breakers at the panel and it did nothing. He did say that TV is on the same circuit as the lights and that nobody told him to put the TV's on their own circuit. The AV company is partners with the electricians company but their wasn't the right communication between them or my general contractor. You would think that since they are partners, sparky would know the separate circuit rule. My AV C4 dealer then came over with an electrician with some type of box that attached to the panel and the circuit breakers. It is currently attached and being tested but did not stop the TV going black for a couple of seconds when the bath fan is turned on and off. The TV hasn't flckered due to the room lights and or dimmer but that may not be due to the device that is now attached to the breakers at the panel because the flickering from the lights and or the dimmer switch was intermittent at best. Only one night was it unequivocally reacting directly with the lights and or dimmer switch. I would guess I could make a case and file a suit but I'm not litigious and I don't see anything positive coming from that. It looks like sparky took some short cuts especially since all of my lighting is LED so he did not have to run that many circuits in the house. I mentioned the Altona balun to him and he did not think that would make a difference and I'm not sure he was even familiar with Altona. I did not mention the Just Add Power and I have a suspicion that would be another fairly large expense. I can certainly live with the fan problem since it won't get turned off and on that often and it is on it's own on off switch so it doesn't get turned on with the lights. I'm just hoping the flickering stays the way it is now and doesn't get worse. If it starts I can just turn the dimmer down to approx.50 - 60% and that seemed to stop it. Dealer is coming by again tomorrow morning. 

[Brownbatsbreath]

That sucks. Sounds like he put a whole house surge protector on the panel maybe? Cool for you to have, won't fix anything relating to your problem. :/

You should have the dealer run whatever type category cable he used from the rack, on the floor, up the stairs, all the way to the TV. (Temporarily of course) Could rule out in wall interference in the current wiring.

Could also switch fan guts with a different bath fan in the house if you have one of the same model. Could be a noisy motor.

[FLA]

That sucks. Sounds like he put a whole house surge protector on the panel maybe? Cool for you to have, won't fix anything relating to your problem. :/

You should have the dealer run whatever type category cable he used from the rack, on the floor, up the stairs, all the way to the TV. (Temporarily of course) Could rule out in wall interference in the current wiring.

Could also switch fan guts with a different bath fan in the house if you have one of the same model. Could be a noisy motor.

Yea sucks. Yes I think that is what he did except nothing is for free. He'll charge me for it and no sense in paying if it doesn't help my cause. 

 

Wall interference is not the issue the C4 dealer and another sparky both agree that it is because they are on the same circuit. 

 

No motor also caused the flicker not only when turning on but actually more often (every time) when turning off.

 

How did you know that the master was upstairs??? 

[Brownbatsbreath]

Muhahaha! just figured it wasn't in the basement.

Then have them plug TV into an extension cord to a different circuit. Just to see if it makes a difference. They all have theories and what not, not hard for them to test with a cord for power or test piece of wire for the baluns.

[FLA]

Muhahaha! just figured it wasn't in the basement.

Then have them plug TV into an extension cord to a different circuit. Just to see if it makes a difference. They all have theories and what not, not hard for them to test with a cord for power or test piece of wire for the baluns

That's a great idea. He is supposed to be coming tomorrow and I will ask him to do that.

[FLA]

Muhahaha! just figured it wasn't in the basement.

Then have them plug TV into an extension cord to a different circuit. Just to see if it makes a difference. They all have theories and what not, not hard for them to test with a cord for power or test piece of wire for the baluns.

 

Waiting for dealer to pull the TV off of the wall so that I can hook up an extension cord.

[FLA]

So we did the plug into another circuit downstairs and low and behold -------- It still blinked from the  lights when they were dimmed and blinked when the bathroom fan was turned on and off. SOOO it was determined that the Balun had electrical interference. A special balun was installed an Viola no blinking. I hate to have something fixed with a patch but I'm thankful that it worked.

[c4Denver]

So we did the plug into another circuit downstairs and low and behold -------- It still blinked from the  lights when they were dimmed and blinked when the bathroom fan was turned on and off. SOOO it was determined that the Balun had electrical interference. A special balun was installed an Viola no blinking. I hate to have something fixed with a patch but I'm thankful that it worked.

A "special balun" - what do you mean?

[FLA]

He said it was a commercial balun. I will post what balun it was when I find out.