Crestron Adagio and Control4 Comparison

[Matt]

Another question, does Creston provide software to customers to allow additional programming?

[thecodeman]

Another question, does Creston provide software to customers to allow additional programming?

http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18371#p18371

No, sorry.

[GoGo Delicious]

With this certain “Creston hardware” and wiring to make the client happy, how much are we talking?

7 Zones total with approximately 6-7 panels and a few remotes?

I don’t believe the bid would be under $12,000.

The total for the following would be WELL under $10,000 actually it would be under $9,000.00. If some ones is serious we will give them a quote with the actual price. But I assure you the system I listed below is less than $9,000.00

Crestron Adagio ADS

7 APAD's

1 CEN-iDOC

1 TPMC-4XG

[hehateme]

This morning I shared the estimates of my Control4 project with you. It was around $12000.

This does not include any wiring. My house was wired for Crestron(Crestcat, Crestnet etc) so it can handle both Crestron and Control4 without any problem.

So if James is going to give us an estimate based on my requirements for Audio Distribution he can assume that wiring is already in place. It will be very nice to see a rough estimate to compare it with Control4 estimate.

If I had to make a guess I will say that If I stick with just APAD's then the cost will be less than $12000. However my control 4 systems has 2 7 Inch touch panels and 1 4 inch touch panel. If we chose equivalent panels in Crestron the price might exceed $12000. It will be good to know by how much.

The reason why I started this thread was because most people equate Crestron with being expensive. In most cases they are right. However for a 6-8 audio distribution system Crestron Adagio might be very comparable to Control4.

Thanks

[GoGo Delicious]

This morning I shared the estimates of my Control4 project with you. It was around $12000.

This does not include any wiring. My house was wired for Crestron(Crestcat, Crestnet etc) so it can handle both Crestron and Control4 without any problem.

So if James is going to give us an estimate based on my requirements for Audio Distribution he can assume that wiring is already in place. It will be very nice to see a rough estimate to compare it with Control4 estimate.

If I had to make a guess I will say that If I stick with just APAD's then the cost will be less than $12000. However my control 4 systems has 2 7 Inch touch panels and 1 4 inch touch panel. If we chose equivalent panels in Crestron the price might exceed $12000. It will be good to know by how much.

The reason why I started this thread was because most people equate Crestron with being expensive. In most cases they are right. However for a 6-8 audio distribution system Crestron Adagio might be very comparable to Control4.

Thanks

See Here!

[GoGo Delicious]

The updated total for the following would be WELL under $11,000. If you also eliminated the TPMC-4XG it would be under $10,000. If some ones is serious we will give them a quote with the actual price.

This system takes a way the APADS and add's 3 TPS series touch panels and leaves in the TMPC-4XG to make it more in line with the C4 quote. With the addition of the 3 touch panels programming will be needed so I added it in.

Crestron Adagio ADS

1 TPS-4L

2 TPS-6L Full motion video and 2 way intercom.

1 CEN-iDOC

1 TPMC-4XG

Programming 8 hours at the most to be safe. It depends on how detailed the client wants the system. Again this is for AUDIO only.

[hehateme]

James,

This price makes Adagio very attractive. I do need a few more details.

1. Can adagio show the music artist information on my TV?

2. I am assuming that answer is yes. Then how much additional programming will it require.

3. Control 4 comes with a remote (SR250) that can control all my equipment. Is there something equivalent in Adagio? How much additional programming will it require?

4. How much will it cost to add 10 lights/dimmers to this system. How much programming will be required?

I am trying hard to find a downside to going with Adagio and I am not finding it yet.

I have been trying to decide on a audio distribution system for a long time. 2 years ago I was convinced that it was going to be adagio. So when I built the house I wired for Crestron.

This month I was convinced that it will be Control4.

Now I am not sure what to do. In most of the cases having more information is better than having less information however in this case more information has added to the confusion.

[dogdvr]

James,

This price makes Adagio very attractive. I do need a few more details.

1. Can adagio show the music artist information on my TV?

2. I am assuming that answer is yes. Then how much additional programming will it require.

3. Control 4 comes with a remote (SR250) that can control all my equipment. Is there something equivalent in Adagio? How much additional programming will it require?

4. How much will it cost to add 10 lights/dimmers to this system. How much programming will be required?

I am trying hard to find a downside to going with Adagio and I am not finding it yet.

I have been trying to decide on a audio distribution system for a long time. 2 years ago I was convinced that it was going to be adagio. So when I built the house I wired for Crestron.

This month I was convinced that it will be Control4.

Now I am not sure what to do. In most of the cases having more information is better than having less information however in this case more information has added to the confusion.

Now your getting out of the range of 7 zones audio, and I think this is where the creston cost's will start pulling away from C4

But don't get me wrong, that 9k price for what he quoted seemed very nice for a Creston system

[GoGo Delicious]

James,

This price makes Adagio very attractive. I do need a few more details.

1. Can adagio show the music artist information on my TV?

Since we were only dealing with audio, the quote I gave you will not show the music artist information on your TV, But it will show up on all your TP's and the TPMC-4XG remote. To get cover art/song/artist info we would have to add to the quote. I would actually want to have more of a discussion because then this leads us to video and I would like to know in detail you future video plans and what your needs might be, etc.

2. I am assuming that answer is yes. Then how much additional programming will it require.

See #1 above

3. Control 4 comes with a remote (SR250) that can control all my equipment. Is there something equivalent in Adagio? How much additional programming will it require?

I added the TPMC-4XG, along with the TP's, which will control everything.

4. How much will it cost to add 10 lights/dimmers to this system. How much programming will be required?

Wired or Wireless

[tumult]

I am trying hard to find a downside to going with Adagio and I am not finding it yet.

keep looking;) j/k. I have c4 in my house so i guess i'm biased. however, i compared crestron, amx, and control4 for my entire house which was a bigger than average project. I went with c4 because we like to move every 3 years, we have young kids who like to break things, and of course cost. my amx and crestron proposals were twice as much as c4 and c4 seemed easier for the family to use. i'm sure crestron or amx would have been equally easy after we got used to it, but c4 just seemed easier. if i were in my 50's and not planning on moving, i would probably go with amx or crestron for reliability and the fact that you can do ANYTHING with the system.

good luck with your choice. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

tum

[acuervo]

I don't think the Crestron iPhone application is available yet. It is not on the software release from yesterday, and not on the beta stuff since most of what was in beta was released yesterday.

To clarify the "No programming" statement:

If you are only using Crestron equipment (i.e. AAS, CEN-IDOC, any of their tuners etc.) then it is, technically, out of the box and no programming is required. Once you add a non Crestron product or a separate room control (say a media room or master bedrm TV system remote) you will need to pull out your laptop and configure using System Builder or program using SIMPL Windows (depending on you programming skill level).

We do both Crestron and Control4 and each have there strengths and weakneses.

Crestron is a system that is completely customizable and can scale to any size but not everyone can afford the solutions they have. Yes you can get a Crestron Adagio system, but you have boundries with it even if you use your own custom logic (instead of System Builder). It is not a full 2 series processor (PRO2 = 257 MIPS vs Adagio AADS / AES = 66 MIPS).

Control4 has been a great way to broaden our market and do jobs that are In/Out/Done.

What is interesting is that C4 has not hurt out Crestron business or viceversa. It has hurt our Universal sales, but I think that was the original intent of getting C4 in the first place.

It is very simple to switch a customer from a $700 MX-850 + MRF-350 to a $799 HC-300 (with a free dimmer). Once you get them hooked, they come back for more.

So that client that was not considering Crestron at all, because all they thought they just wanted a basic remote to control the media room, now have capabilties to expand and we benefit from that. $$

The power of Crestron is not the equipment but in how it is implemented, programmed and, of course, how well you did when you interviewed your client.

You can have as much Crestron equipment as you think you need, but if you did not ask the right questions to your client or understand what they want and/or need, if you did not design the system correctly or get the right talent to program your system, you might as well sold them a Universal remote.

I think the above applies to Control4, AMX, Elan, or any of the other control products.

My 2 cents.

[GoGo Delicious]

. . . .that 9k price for what he quoted seemed very nice for a Creston system

And, the pricing I gave reflects MSRP pricing. I have not discounted anything.

[Mav-Jason]

First off *C4 biased here*

I'm an AV technician of a dealer, and I'll also be the first to admit that I am still somewhat new to C4 (about 12 or so systems worked on/ upgraded in some way or another, and one total design/ install).

The one client I did from start to finish loves the system and couldn't be happier with his project. The kicker is, it was a new home wired for Lutron. The wiring wasn't perfect for what he wanted to do, but I happen to be a Master Retrofitter <<< Point being, he went C4 at a MUCH better price for more functionality and couldn't be happier.

Now my NEXT client (job starts next week) bought a house with a Crestron system already installed. She (yes SHE) walked into our showroom waving her credit card over her head and, very nicely said, "get this sh*t out of my house". I have been there and seen what she has, which works fine (except for the security sys, which is fubar'd) but is rather basic. When she found out what it would take ($$$) to make it do what she wanted it to from a Crestron dealer, well... she walked into our store. There is much more to story, with particulars and such, but I will leave it at that.

Nuff said.

[Kevin L]

lol

its funny to see GoGo Delicous have an account here..

here are things he says about control4

"I was asked why I am so down on Control4 and here is the reason why. I honestly feel Control4 has a very poor product. I would highly recommend that a person who's considering a Control4 system to look at LifeWare (I am NOT a LifeWare dealer nor do I have any interest in LifeWare). I feel for the price LifeWare offers a better solution than Control4."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1005608

[Kevin L]

and James

i dont care what system you design. Control4 can do it cheaper and offer more features

get the hell off of this board and go spout your biased hatred for control4 and love for crestron elsewhere.. its pathetic and immature

[acuervo]

Wow!

Compare C4 to Lifeware? And you sell neither?

If you cannot sell a product based on its own merit, but instead feel the need to disparage other products (which you know very little about) just to make what you are selling more appealing, what do you think that says about your credibility?

You can make your point without disparaging product.

Consider instead that C4 is not a poor product, but instead it is the poor implementation.

I went through the C4 pre-Tech I, Tech I and Tech II and they emphasize the need for a robust network and a carefully designed system.

And you would probably assume, well they do that because of the limitation of the product.

Well now consider this: this year at Crestron’s Masters Class (and yes I am a Crestron Master Silver programmer too) they emphasized on: robust networks and carefully designed systems.

Wait, there is more, go to an AMX design and programming training (and yes I am also ACE) and guess what they talk about.

So you see, if implemented correctly, any of the products will work well. It is your job as a system designer and /or sales consultant to ask the right questions and get the information from the client to formulate the right product that fits their needs.

ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS...then formulate a solution.

It all comes down to that!

Another 2 cents

[Kevin L]

Wow!

Compare C4 to Lifeware? And you sell neither?

If you cannot sell a product based on its own merit, but instead feel the need to disparage other products (which you know very little about) just to make what you are selling more appealing, what do you think that says about your credibility?

You can make your point without disparaging product.

Consider instead that C4 is not a poor product, but instead it is the poor implementation.

I went through the C4 pre-Tech I, Tech I and Tech II and they emphasize the need for a robust network and a carefully designed system.

And you would probably assume, well they do that because of the limitation of the product.

Well now consider this: this year at Crestron’s Masters Class (and yes I am a Crestron Master Silver programmer too) they emphasized on: robust networks and carefully designed systems.

Wait, there is more, go to an AMX design and programming training (and yes I am also ACE) and guess what they talk about.

So you see, if implemented correctly, any of the products will work well. It is your job as a system designer and /or sales consultant to ask the right questions and get the information from the client to formulate the right product that fits their needs.

ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS...then formulate a solution.

It all comes down to that!

Another 2 cents

well said.. even Kaliedscape and escient all stress GOOD NETWORKS..

the installs i have done with control4 are amazing.. They have gone well above and beyond what control4 says you can do and they work FLAWLESSLY.. by definition flawlessly means EVERYTHING WORKS HOW IT SHOULD. I have neighborhoods.. yes neighborhoods FULL of control4.. 1 guy has an AMX system and i died laughing when he was at one of my control4 clients and their system did more than his..

people like James annoy me. I have had rep after rep and after look at some of my homes in person and they freak out.. A vudu rep said he didnt know control4 could be installed into systems the size i do and was amazed and how it performed..

[Mav-Jason]

lol

its funny to see GoGo Delicous have an account here..

here are things he says about control4

"I was asked why I am so down on Control4 and here is the reason why. I honestly feel Control4 has a very poor product. I would highly recommend that a person who's considering a Control4 system to look at LifeWare (I am NOT a LifeWare dealer nor do I have any interest in LifeWare). I feel for the price LifeWare offers a better solution than Control4."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1005608

Oh my... nice read.

[hehateme]

James,

I noticed that you mentioned Adagio ADS in your quote but you don't mention Adagio Audio Server.

Isn't this required to listen to music from the computer network. I want to remove CEN-IDOC and add AAS to the system you are recommending. Let me know what the price would be.

Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions.

[George P]

James,

I noticed that you mentioned Adagio ADS in your quote but you don't mention Adagio Audio Server.

Isn't this required to listen to music from the computer network. I want to remove CEN-IDOC and add AAS to the system you are recommending. Let me know what the price would be.

Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions.

Do yourself a favor. Get a reputable Crestron dealer involved and have them design a proper system to meet your requirements. Also have them demonstrate a similar solution. Get some references and check them. Same for the Control4 design. In either case, you are buying into the dealer as well as the product.

Crappy dealer = Crappy product (whatever the brand)

My advice is to stop trying to have GoGo design your system. He has left out some key items like Crestron power supplies. If you use the Crestron touch panels or APAD's, you need to power them properly. The Adagio provides 20 watts of power. Properly designing a Crestron system includes power calculations. Not just adding up watts. You must take into account wire run lengths and the resistance of the cable. It's not hard, but your dealer needs to do it to make sure your system operates properly. 20 watts is NOT enough for a system like you are after.

He also left out a way to get control ports into each of your surround sound rooms. The Adagio processors have ports but they will be in the room where all of your distributed audio wiring originates. Is that where your surround sound equipment is? You will also need a WAP or RF Gateway for handheld remotes. More power for those too...

I'm not trying to talk you out of Crestron. Our clients love their systems. Just get in with a reputable dealer and get a real quote.

GoGo has posted incorrect Crestron info on this board before. I'm not sure it is intentional or just lack of knowledge.

He also claims to be installing the Crestron iPhone app for his clients on the free iPod touch's he gives them. He is lying or living in the future. The app is not available yet from Crestron.

I'm going back to my lurking status and don't have time to debate him here but be careful.

Good luck. Your foresight in wiring for either allows you to go either way. Nice job.

Later,

George P.

[Kevin L]

this is why i dislike crestron.. i had a client spend over 250k on electronics with a crestron dealer.. this is what they got.. I called a crestron rep to get help.. the crestron rep said its not their problem and that was it.. they didnt give 2 craps.. guess what brand automation products their entire family uses now their 15,000 sq ft house in Deer Valley/Park City, UT is getting crestron ripped out.. All of the other homes they own are all Control4 and its funny.. they love the product. it works perfect every single time..

on to the pics of awesomeness

[jbs]

We speced our a Crestron system as well when we built our house and the cost for similar functionality was more than double C4's price. I've had my C4 system for almost 2 years now and I'm constantly thrilled with it. We have 16 zones of stereo audio, 2 surround sound media zones (a 5.1 and a 7.1) 7 video zones, ~ 70 dimmers, security, garage door, motion, cameras, not to mention more than 200 GB of distributed audio. And the system works like a champ. The worst that might happen is once every month or two it benefits from a reboot. Wish my PC worked that well.

One thing I like about C4 is they are not trying to "trick" you into an entry level system that can't grow with you. Even if you wanted to start out with a controller and a couple of zones of audio, the HC300 or 500 that you'd buy is the same equipment I used in a very large install (All of the above runs on an HTC and an HC300). Your investment would be the basis for whatever you want to do with your system in the future. And the real sweetener to me was that I knew I'd want to tweak and customize my system and I wanted to be able to do that myself.

I am far from a Crestron expert, but reading the details James has posted about others (and James, I know you'll feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) it sounds as though the Adagio platform is a very different solution than what you'd need if you decided to do video, lights, a bigger system. So while you might squeak in to a Crestron system for $12,000 (and it sounds like even that was leaving out a lot of necessary components) for my money I'd rather have a robust system that I can add to, not a stripped-down system on which I've already maxed out the capabilities.

But, as with everyone else on these boards, I certainly have my biases.

Good luck!

--Jason

[Kevin L]

We speced our a Crestron system as well when we built our house and the cost for similar functionality was more than double C4's price. I've had my C4 system for almost 2 years now and I'm constantly thrilled with it. We have 16 zones of stereo audio, 2 surround sound media zones (a 5.1 and a 7.1) 7 video zones, ~ 70 dimmers, security, garage door, motion, cameras, not to mention more than 200 GB of distributed audio. And the system works like a champ. The worst that might happen is once every month or two it benefits from a reboot. Wish my PC worked that well.

One thing I like about C4 is they are not trying to "trick" you into an entry level system that can't grow with you. Even if you wanted to start out with a controller and a couple of zones of audio, the HC300 or 500 that you'd buy is the same equipment I used in a very large install (All of the above runs on an HTC and an HC300). Your investment would be the basis for whatever you want to do with your system in the future. And the real sweetener to me was that I knew I'd want to tweak and customize my system and I wanted to be able to do that myself.

I am far from a Crestron expert, but reading the details James has posted about others (and James, I know you'll feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) it sounds as though the Adagio platform is a very different solution than what you'd need if you decided to do video, lights, a bigger system. So while you might squeak in to a Crestron system for $12,000 (and it sounds like even that was leaving out a lot of necessary components) for my money I'd rather have a robust system that I can add to, not a stripped-down system on which I've already maxed out the capabilities.

But, as with everyone else on these boards, I certainly have my biases.

Good luck!

--Jason

Jason.. there are a few things that should be checked.. NO REBOOTS SHOULD BE REQUIRED

what is your network setup and master controller?

[jbs]

We have Verizon Fios, so using their router into a DLink POE switch.

I got feedback on how the project is divided back in this thread (http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=2003) and RyanE and others thought that it made sense, so I think I'm fine there.

It's a rare occurrence and it's very easy to do ever since I installed this little piece of goodness:

I don't know whether it's caused by network glitches on the overall home network (i.e. DLink or router) or something Zigbee or C4-related, but walking down to the closet and flipping the row of switches for a fresh start is very easy.

Don't get me wrong, if there are common things which cause the system to slow down, I'd be happy to look at them, but overall I'm very happy with the performance.

I'll post below my longer description from the above-referenced thread.

--Jason

The gentleman who programmed our C4 system (and who was truly a genius with the stuff) has unfortunately retired (back to law school). The dealer has other integrators coming up to speed, but in the mean time I was hoping to get some outside opinions on the best way to load balance a project.

I have a Media Controller and an HC300, as well as 7 MTS, couple of amps, matrix switch and about 70 dimmers. The Zigbee performance has always been a bit on the sluggish side, I'm assuming b/c of the size of the project and the fact that the controllers are all in a basement closet. I need all the IR hookups so I don't have the option of just moving one or the other to another network jack more centrally located in the house.

I had him screenshot the current configuration, which currently looks like this:

Is this the "right" way to split things out? I'm not sure if it's indicated in the graphics above, but zserver shows as enabled on the HC300 and disabled on the media controller. If there's something else that would be more useful to screenshot, please let me know (he logs in remotely so it's no big deal to get another).

Is the project "running" on whichever machine has director enabled on it? Is that what we mean by "running the project"? Sorry for my high levels of ignorance here, but this is a facet of C4 that I've not learned much about so far . . .

Thanks for any advice!

--Jason

[Kevin L]

Jason -

zserver isnt a very big process. Are both controllers in the same place? how many zigbee devices?

Im not sure if Ryan E agrees but id rather run director and navigator on the HC300.. it has a faster processor. Yes the project is running on the media controller aka the box director is enabled on