somebody posted a great article about networks on c4forums.

[phuture2]

Hello,

A while ago somebody had taken the time to post a long but great,interesting post about networks and the diffenent types there were.It was explained in detail ,all the technical stuff.i printed it out but lost it .does anybody remember where it was or who wrote it ? I tried to do a search for it but no luck.any help would be great thanks.

[PatrickDolan]

I don't know if this is what you were referring to but it is a very helpful Powerpoint doc from C4. If you don't have Powerpoint I pasted the link here. Hope it helps.

http://www.control4.be/website/ppt/Basic_Networking_1.ppt

[Kevin L]

i think its very inappropriate that you guys are posting dealer only power points.. these are not for public sharing. they are copyright and for control4 dealers ONLY.. I highly advise you remove the links and stop sharing copyright information....

if you are a control4 dealer you should be asking on the control4 dealer forum NOT ON A PUBLIC FORUm

if you are a consumer you should hire a dealer if you dont know how to design and configure a network..

[CFUG]

And in addition to this, I think it would be more meaningful if dealers would stop posting how-tos (to non-dealers) using Composer Pro. Even if they are dealers asking the questions, some of easy things I've seen should not be questioned by so-called experts.

[PatrickDolan]

You know what is "Extremely Inappropriate" is the fact that almost every single post that you read on this forum is cluttered with some dealer complaining about something. Do you even think before you start ranting and raving or is it just an immediate reaction. If you would just do a little research first you would have found that you and every other person out there with an internet connection could find this doc by googling "advanced networking control4."

Now if you're problem is with the person that published this I will be a nice guy and help you out. I found it through Google on "control4.be" and here is their contact info... Control4 BeNeLux B.V.B.A. | Bedrijvenstraat 4501 | 3800 Sint-Truiden | T.: +32(0)11 887 952 | F.: +32(0)11 882 701 |thothan

You need to make your rediculous threats to them not to a brand new customer of Control 4 that was only trying to help out another new member. Although given the looks of their web page it is either C4 in another country or a dealer in another country so I think there might be a language barrier when you call them but good luck. Did you ever think that us "customers" don't know what your "Rules" are and we are just using a forum for what it is intended for which is to share information and help others. Why don't you take the time to post the thousands of rules that all of us "stupid" customers should be forced to read before joining so we don't get yelled at by dealers like you.

I am so taken back by the way that some dealers on this site treat C4 customers and cannot believe that any other corporation, no matter how big, would allow their dealers to threaten customers like you just did without terminating your agreement immediately. These are potential customers and current customers not your competition. I really wish that the same way that Control 4 keeps customers out of the dealer only section that they would keep some of the dealers out of this one. It would keep the constant complaining and the threats to the dealer section only, and the customers could actually post a topic without it being cluttered with this garbage.

I am not addressing all of the dealers some are very helpful but others are only on here to yell at people that are only helping out other members. Control 4 should take away your ability to access or post on this site because of the lack of respect and professionalism that you show to their customers. It's sad to say but if C4 was smart they would take down this entire forum because of the horrible impression that you are leaving with their potential customers.

In one post you are threatening customers but then in the next you are trying to get remote installation business from another. I'm not going to give you business advice because it appears that you obviously have it all figured out but I don't think I would makes threats on the same site I am trying to get business.

I would love to hear from other customers that wouldn't mine sharing their opinions on this matter because I guarantee that there are thousands that feel the exact same way that I do. I will also contact the apporpriate people at C4 corporate offices and see what their opinion of this is because honestly I don't think I have ever been treated like a criminal after just spending thousands of dollars with a business. Given the horrible economy right now I would think that C4, falling in the luxury or non essential category, would not want something like a dealers mindless threats affecting their business.

[Kevin L]

since everyone likes to double post

Patrick

since i am going to assume most of your comments are directed towards me let me be clear

I am one of the most helpful dealers on the entire internet. I receive emails from consumers AND dealers from this site and many others and guess what. I HELP THEM ALL. One of the consumers on this forum received advice from me and i also fixed a few things on his system and guess what. he never paid me. Did i make a big stink about consumers screwing dealers? no. Every single one of my clients loves their system and the installation i did. I am not rude or mean to consumers the fact of the matter is private information regardless of what it is is being shared on a public forum.

I understand you see it was hosted on a control4.be site. That was their mistake. Things get leaked out all the time but most of the time they then get deleted after the mistake has been found and everyone moves on.

Control4 is a dealer based product. That fact that some of the people on this board have composer and NEED TO ASK QUESTIONS CONSTANTLY proves the fact that it is a dealer only system. If you need a message board to learn about networks then fine but dont distribute copyright information from control4 that is NOT for public use. if you want to learn how to program product, do advanced systems and learn about good networks maybe its time you move professions. Start a low voltage business and learn. Really how much time are you spending dealing with the BS of no support and a lack of knowledge vs just finding a dealer and paying him a few 100 dollars?

[dgbrown]

I tend to agree with you Patrick. The issue here is with the tone of the response which seems to be a more common running theme. AA could have checked that link prior to posting and made a more educated and appropriate response. Quite honestly his second response even fails to acknowledge that fact as well.

It's not that the link, or the text of the document was posted or that you're hosting the document for public consumption. It seems more like a C4 dealer education/dealership issue based on the origin of the material.

Regarding the document, it's value is essentially very limited. It's very basic and just goes to show how very unprepared most dealers (across all HA vendors, not just C4) are at designing, installing, and maintaining networks.

Head over to cisco and use their search function, there are many, many great primers on both wired and wireless network design and troubleshooting if you want to put the time into getting a better understanding of my trade.

[PatrickDolan]

PatrickDolan

Member

Registered: Jan-13-2009

Posts: 20

E-mail Re: I honestly feel that everyone should have a chance to read this one!

Thanks to all of you for the positive feedback. I was honestly expecting a little bit of an apology or nice "I'm sorry should have Googl'd before jumping down your throat." Since I didn't get that in any way shape or form then I guess I will have to continue with my post from last night at 4am.

AA you say that it is my responsibility to know that the Control4.be site being affiliated with C4 just happen to make a mistake and leak this info when it is for dealers only. How may I ask am I as a "stupid customer" supposed to know what is dealer only and what is not. I am even going to stick up for the dealers now but first I want you to understand that I am a fellow business owner with 75 employees and am a distributor for the largest telecom carrier out there, guess who? We do all business to business outside sales for them and we are ranked the 4th largest volume producing firm in the entire Midwest.

My opinion on why dealers are so defensive is if C4 were to not charge you $60 for a dimmer that costs probably 60 cents in India to make then maybe you would not be so quick to snap at customers looking for info or to do a DIY. You also have to deal with other dealers out there that undercut the hell out of you just to make $10,000 a year which you are not in business to make and I agree. In my opinion as a business owner they are forcing you to only make money on the installation which is why you are so defensive about DIY and a customer having Composer Pro because that is how you stay in business. We can all respect a man working hard to support his family and make a living but it goes both ways and we would appreciate that same respect.

I am not saying this to be vain I am simply saying it so you understand that I am not just some "stupid customer" that is looking to save a couple pennies. Listen it is my house and I can do what I want with it. If I want to take a match and burn it to the ground I have the right to, there will be legal ramifications but that's not the point. If I want to install all of my own C4 components and do all of my wiring and have a dealer come out to do my programming only I am allowed to do that.

AA you stated that we should just pay someone to do it instead of asking so many questions, but have you ever changed your own oil, fixed your own router or network, plunged your own toilet, or mowed your own lawn. If you look at it like that you could say that you are taking business away from someone with every daily chore you do. But if we paid someone to do everything for us how boring and broke would we all be. And don't say that you don't ask questions for some tasks that you DIY I am sure they are not the ones listed above but I guarantee you have visited some forum out there as the customer not the dealer.

I have every right to install C4 in my house and you were wrong again when you stated over and over again in a prior post that C4 is a dealer only product and is not for DIY because C4 sold me everything based on the fact that I was doing it myself. My dealer also laughed at me when I first spoke to him and mentioned I would be doing a DIY. But after I answered a few unknowns about C4 that he personally had, he changed his tune and stated that I would have no problem installing this on my own. However to be fair the programmers that came out were extremely knowledgable and they were also impressed with my work.

I also want you to understand that I did not just install a controller and a dimmer and sat back to admire a job welll done. My project and install consisted of 4 different rooms that I am supplying 9 different HD video signals too with sony 8x8 switcher. Those rooms consist of...

1) projector for movie theater

2) 55' Plasma

3) 2- 42' Plasma's

All rooms can view 3-satellite receivers, Sony 777ES, C4 GUI, Apple TV, Wii, XBOX 360 and PS3 for Blu Ray and the kids can play the wii and PS3 in all 4 rooms because of the bluetooth repeater. My kids are very spoiled but that's for Dr. Phil's forum. 2 of the rooms also have surround sound for everything including the PS3 because I split the optical into 2 coax digital signals. All of the rooms have B&W in wall speakers and I have the other 8 zones getting audio from the 16 channel amp. I am able to control everything from 3 -C4 SR-250 remotes, 4 LCD keypads, 7.5 touchscreen, from my Iphone with the Control 4 UI app or remotely from 4 sight.

The components mostly purchased from C4 consist of...

1) sony 8x8 video switcher

2) 16 channel amp

3) 2- Denon receivers

4) Sony PS3

5) 30- B&W speakers for the inside and out

6) 2 Panasonic IP cameras for the pool

7) 50 dimmers and an assortment of 3,6 button keypads

8) 7.5 inch touchscreen

9) garage door automation kit from card access with relay and contact switch

10) thermostat that has Aprilaire tied in

11) sony 777es dvd changer

12) 4 LCD keypads

13) Apple TV

14) Honeywell Vista 20P security with ICM module

15) multiple motion sensors for energy saving and also security.

15) and only one HC-300 powering everything (yes I am doing all this with just one.)

I have every single composer agent mixed into the programming just for example without making this any longer than it already is: my lights come on when you enter a room and I have the timer agent start for 15 minutes, if it doesn't sense motion after it expires the lights shut off and if it does sense motion timer restarts. I also have my pool gate partioned on my alarm that can be armed or disarm from any remote or LCD Custom button. When the pool gate, kids windows or any door in the house's contact state changes I have a seperate announcement that comes over all speakers to inform you of exactly what zone was tripped. That is nice if you have kids and a pool, second floor rooms and an over protective wife like me.

Now I will admit that the first time around almost everyone will need and have to have help with the programming, bindings and editing drivers because as AA said you can really screw stuff up. But as far as the adding of a device you couldn't get any easier than click the device added and click the top button 4 times and for some of the devices that don't need editing and bindings it would be nice to have the ability to add a dimmer ourselves. And before you jump down my throat and threaten me because I must have a composer pro pirated version, I will tell you I don't I simply assisted the programmers and watched what they were doing when they were here. Let me know if that is against the rules too.

Because I read this forum like it is my morning newspaper I can almost guarantee, that if I ended this hear the next 10 posts would be about "how if you are so successful than why are you being so cheap." I'm not being cheap and not that it is anyone's business but I do have the money to spend. I wish the dealers that are so quick to judge would think that maybe by living in the Midwest during the winter we all hybernate and I like to find a hobby to make the winter months go by faster. Last year I completely refinished the basement at my new house with a movie theater room, billiard room, ktichenette and a poker room/home office. Yeh could I have had the builder do it when they built the house and it would have been a lot easier but I did it my way and a lot of times it is easier than dealing with a contractor or dealer.

I enjoy this industry and I also enjoy the opportunity to accomplish something on my own. It's very easy to pay someone to do it but where is the reward in that. I also enjoy golfing but I am not going to close up my business to become a professional golfer like AA stated I may want to do with the low voltage business. Just because you have a hobby doesn't mean you want to do that full time, it is simply a hobby, but it also doesn't mean you are an idiot and have no idea about this industry. So I think to sum it up all that everyone here is asking for is the same respect that you are shown by us. You don't have to belittle us to gain that respect you are the professional in this industry and you deserve that respect because you are the best in your field.

Online

[RyanE]

Just for the record, C4forums is NOT in ANY way directly related to, sponsored by, or affiliated with Control4, other than the fact that it is run by a Control4 *DEALER*.

Suggesting that Control4 take down the forums, or restrict who can participate on the forums doesn't make much sense, since the forums are not run by Control4.

Dealers have the right of free speech just like all of you do as well. Some of them have opinions... shocking, isn't it?

RyanE

[Paul_Quadriom]

Just for the record, C4forums is NOT in ANY way directly related to, sponsored by, or affiliated with Control4, other than the fact that it is run by a Control4 *DEALER*.

Suggesting that Control4 take down the forums, or restrict who can participate on the forums doesn't make much sense, since the forums are not run by Control4.

Dealers have the right of free speech just like all of you do as well. Some of them have opinions... shocking, isn't it?

RyanE

... and Control4 does not typically pre-announce new products and/or features.

Oh wait, wrong thread, sorry...

[neil12011]

and just to clarify, AA is probably one of the best dealers out there. Nothing but quality that I've seen and knowledgeable as well...He's good people, and has provided much help to us on the dealer forums. And I'll say this, dealers typically do not lose money on the DIY crowd, nor do we think that you are "stupid customers". The main problem comes from calls where customers have obtained gear off of ebay or whatever and it stops working or they have rendered it un-usable with composer pro. All of us who are in the biz post here for the betterment of the end users. We don't get paid any extra for it. I will say that in the end, I would rather setup a C4 system from start to finish and then show the customer programming, not neccesarily for the $, but it helps having someone teach you face to face. I like educating customers on what THEY can do, it's the whole point of HE, but I digress... I assure you that AA is one of those who will always lend a hand, not threaten you.

It's sad to say but if C4 was smart they would take down this entire forum because of the horrible impression that you are leaving with their potential customers.

Again, to echo what Ryan said, this forum is run by the guys from Cytexone, not Control4. To say that taking it down would be smart? I dont' think the other users who get alot out of the forums would agree. Not everyone will agree with what the other says, but that doesn't mean that you should throw the baby out with the bath water.

Peace.

[PatrickDolan]

I 110% agree with you and Ryan that taking the forum down would be a complete shame. What I stated was that, "It's sad to say but if C4 was smart they would take down this entire forum because of the horrible impression that you are leaving with their potential customers." This was only said because I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned that C4forums.com was not a C4 site and without clarification the majority of people would come to the conclusion that it is. And if it was ran by C4 I don't feel that it is great publicity for them considering the amount of posts that end up in arguments.

But I think we all agree that the positives of this site far out weight the negatives. In regards to Ryan's sarcastic statement about dealers having opinions and having every right to speak their mind I only disagree because this forum is not the place for a representative of C4 to vent about C4, Composer Pro pirated software assumptions or customers purchasing C4 equipment from Ebay. I think that given the URL and the general assumption by customers that this is hosted by C4 that I would pick another forum to snap at or accuse customers of breaking rules that you have but most of us don't even know about.

I bet there is not a forum out there for AT&T employees to go to and intermingle with customers and snap at them for not knowing what they're doing or for asking how to do a speed test on their DSL. And if they are on the forum they do not have a title of dealer or employee of AT&T below their name because they are representing something much larger than their opinion and would not want to hurt AT&T's reputation. Ultimately by doing this you are only hurting yourself. That is my point.

If you have an opinion than it is your right to voice it and that is the whole point of a forum but if it is a threat or scolding than in my opinion as a fellow distributor I would let C4 handle it. I don't see Microsoft employees yelling at and threatening customers with hacked or pirated versions of XP or Vista. In my opinion it falls under the saying of don't #*%T where you eat or don't cut off the hand that feeds you. But that's just my opinion.

In regards to the reputation or intentions or AA I don't know him at all so I would not even begin to say what type of person he is. From the way that I was snapped at I did however feel that if he is so quick to judge that he must not be the nicest or most helpful dealer on this site but that was my opinion at that time. Given the support that he has received I would have to say that my first impression was probably wrong but I think he understands why I came to the judgement that I did.

All and all I am not here to pick fights with anyone or to stay up till 4 am responding to a post because I am so offended by a dealer and for the most part I don't think any of the dealers are here for that either. I would however just ask to be treated with respect because I have done nothing wrong where I don't deserve it.

In the future AA and the other dealers if a customer or I posts something that we shouldn't be or we say something incorrect just PM us or give us a heads up in a professional fashion and I know I will do the same in return. I think that would make this forum not so hostile.

Again that is just my opinion. Take it as just that. Thanks for the PM though AA it was appreciated.

[Mav-Jason]

Just for the record' date=' C4forums is NOT in ANY way directly related to, sponsored by, or affiliated with Control4, other than the fact that it is run by a Control4 *DEALER*.

Suggesting that Control4 take down the forums, or restrict who can participate on the forums doesn't make much sense, since the forums are not run by Control4.

Dealers have the right of free speech just like all of you do as well. Some of them have opinions... shocking, isn't it?

RyanE[/quote']

... and Control4 does not typically pre-announce new products and/or features.

Oh wait, wrong thread, sorry...

Oh my... that was great

[panamagixxer]

Can't we all just get along?

[Mav-Jason]

After re-reading this thread? Doubt it.

But HEY! The 'Humor' tab is available in HE too, right? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. :lol:

[danlevine]

Just to chime in here, this forum is not going to be taken down. Especially not for stupid comments. Patrick I do happen to agree with you, it is a bit of a bummer that sometimes the threads go in this direction. There really are "two camps" in the C4 world, that is the dealers and the customers. We have always felt it to be important that information is readily available for all, which is what makes a better product. That is why we started this site.

Now there are some dealers that are protective of the Knowledge they have. Rightfully so as they have typically invested quite a bit of money to get into this industry and the ongoing costs of running a business is very expensive. In these economic times holding on to that information may help they generate more business. I can understand this mindset as I've seen many people have this.

We have a bit of a different mindset as CytexOne builds many different types of technology. Most of the information we utilize has been discovered on the internet by one of our team. So naturally we are all for the information being available. Also if someone is actively looking for the information out there, odds are they are not going to be hiring us to build a system for them. However they may build a system and have a friend who sees it and might end up buying a system, you never know.

Just to put on my dealer hat here, I know Kevin (Audio Atmosphere) personally. He is a great, very knowledgeable guy. He also has seen many people try poorly (dealers and DIY) included build C4 systems haphazardly. They have had many problems and in turn have done a bit of C4 bashing which him as well as many of the good dealers have had to deal with. We constantly are doing a bit of PR for Control4 as the problems people typically experience have nothing to do with Control4.

My vibe on this whole situation is hopefully everybody can move on and work towards a more uniformed approach. If someone is in search of information and they find it here, Great! It shouldn't be moderated or jumped on, because as Patrick said it does kind of give the Stereotypically C4 Dealer a bad rap. I obviously can't speak for everyone here, as well as all of the dealers out there.

Every good dealer shouldn't be threatened by a Non dealer trying to understand how to get "under the hood" of a C4 system.

[PatrickDolan]

Well Said. Thanks for the reply.

[K&J]

PatrickDolan

Member

Registered: Jan-13-2009

Posts: 20

E-mail Re: I honestly feel that everyone should have a chance to read this one!

Thanks to all of you for the positive feedback. I was honestly expecting a little bit of an apology or nice "I'm sorry should have Googl'd before jumping down your throat." Since I didn't get that in any way shape or form then I guess I will have to continue with my post from last night at 4am.

AA you say that it is my responsibility to know that the Control4.be site being affiliated with C4 just happen to make a mistake and leak this info when it is for dealers only. How may I ask am I as a "stupid customer" supposed to know what is dealer only and what is not. I am even going to stick up for the dealers now but first I want you to understand that I am a fellow business owner with 75 employees and am a distributor for the largest telecom carrier out there, guess who? We do all business to business outside sales for them and we are ranked the 4th largest volume producing firm in the entire Midwest.

My opinion on why dealers are so defensive is if C4 were to not charge you $60 for a dimmer that costs probably 60 cents in India to make then maybe you would not be so quick to snap at customers looking for info or to do a DIY. You also have to deal with other dealers out there that undercut the hell out of you just to make $10,000 a year which you are not in business to make and I agree. In my opinion as a business owner they are forcing you to only make money on the installation which is why you are so defensive about DIY and a customer having Composer Pro because that is how you stay in business. We can all respect a man working hard to support his family and make a living but it goes both ways and we would appreciate that same respect.

I am not saying this to be vain I am simply saying it so you understand that I am not just some "stupid customer" that is looking to save a couple pennies. Listen it is my house and I can do what I want with it. If I want to take a match and burn it to the ground I have the right to, there will be legal ramifications but that's not the point. If I want to install all of my own C4 components and do all of my wiring and have a dealer come out to do my programming only I am allowed to do that.

AA you stated that we should just pay someone to do it instead of asking so many questions, but have you ever changed your own oil, fixed your own router or network, plunged your own toilet, or mowed your own lawn. If you look at it like that you could say that you are taking business away from someone with every daily chore you do. But if we paid someone to do everything for us how boring and broke would we all be. And don't say that you don't ask questions for some tasks that you DIY I am sure they are not the ones listed above but I guarantee you have visited some forum out there as the customer not the dealer.

I have every right to install C4 in my house and you were wrong again when you stated over and over again in a prior post that C4 is a dealer only product and is not for DIY because C4 sold me everything based on the fact that I was doing it myself. My dealer also laughed at me when I first spoke to him and mentioned I would be doing a DIY. But after I answered a few unknowns about C4 that he personally had, he changed his tune and stated that I would have no problem installing this on my own. However to be fair the programmers that came out were extremely knowledgable and they were also impressed with my work.

I also want you to understand that I did not just install a controller and a dimmer and sat back to admire a job welll done. My project and install consisted of 4 different rooms that I am supplying 9 different HD video signals too with sony 8x8 switcher. Those rooms consist of...

1) projector for movie theater

2) 55' Plasma

3) 2- 42' Plasma's

All rooms can view 3-satellite receivers, Sony 777ES, C4 GUI, Apple TV, Wii, XBOX 360 and PS3 for Blu Ray and the kids can play the wii and PS3 in all 4 rooms because of the bluetooth repeater. My kids are very spoiled but that's for Dr. Phil's forum. 2 of the rooms also have surround sound for everything including the PS3 because I split the optical into 2 coax digital signals. All of the rooms have B&W in wall speakers and I have the other 8 zones getting audio from the 16 channel amp. I am able to control everything from 3 -C4 SR-250 remotes, 4 LCD keypads, 7.5 touchscreen, from my Iphone with the Control 4 UI app or remotely from 4 sight.

The components mostly purchased from C4 consist of...

1) sony 8x8 video switcher

2) 16 channel amp

3) 2- Denon receivers

4) Sony PS3

5) 30- B&W speakers for the inside and out

6) 2 Panasonic IP cameras for the pool

7) 50 dimmers and an assortment of 3,6 button keypads

8) 7.5 inch touchscreen

9) garage door automation kit from card access with relay and contact switch

10) thermostat that has Aprilaire tied in

11) sony 777es dvd changer

12) 4 LCD keypads

13) Apple TV

14) Honeywell Vista 20P security with ICM module

15) multiple motion sensors for energy saving and also security.

15) and only one HC-300 powering everything (yes I am doing all this with just one.)

I have every single composer agent mixed into the programming just for example without making this any longer than it already is: my lights come on when you enter a room and I have the timer agent start for 15 minutes, if it doesn't sense motion after it expires the lights shut off and if it does sense motion timer restarts. I also have my pool gate partioned on my alarm that can be armed or disarm from any remote or LCD Custom button. When the pool gate, kids windows or any door in the house's contact state changes I have a seperate announcement that comes over all speakers to inform you of exactly what zone was tripped. That is nice if you have kids and a pool, second floor rooms and an over protective wife like me.

Now I will admit that the first time around almost everyone will need and have to have help with the programming, bindings and editing drivers because as AA said you can really screw stuff up. But as far as the adding of a device you couldn't get any easier than click the device added and click the top button 4 times and for some of the devices that don't need editing and bindings it would be nice to have the ability to add a dimmer ourselves. And before you jump down my throat and threaten me because I must have a composer pro pirated version, I will tell you I don't I simply assisted the programmers and watched what they were doing when they were here. Let me know if that is against the rules too.

Because I read this forum like it is my morning newspaper I can almost guarantee, that if I ended this hear the next 10 posts would be about "how if you are so successful than why are you being so cheap." I'm not being cheap and not that it is anyone's business but I do have the money to spend. I wish the dealers that are so quick to judge would think that maybe by living in the Midwest during the winter we all hybernate and I like to find a hobby to make the winter months go by faster. Last year I completely refinished the basement at my new house with a movie theater room, billiard room, ktichenette and a poker room/home office. Yeh could I have had the builder do it when they built the house and it would have been a lot easier but I did it my way and a lot of times it is easier than dealing with a contractor or dealer.

I enjoy this industry and I also enjoy the opportunity to accomplish something on my own. It's very easy to pay someone to do it but where is the reward in that. I also enjoy golfing but I am not going to close up my business to become a professional golfer like AA stated I may want to do with the low voltage business. Just because you have a hobby doesn't mean you want to do that full time, it is simply a hobby, but it also doesn't mean you are an idiot and have no idea about this industry. So I think to sum it up all that everyone here is asking for is the same respect that you are shown by us. You don't have to belittle us to gain that respect you are the professional in this industry and you deserve that respect because you are the best in your field.

Online

You know, as much as I've admonished someone having a pirated copy of Pro.

I will compliment you on your knowledge and your integrity for writing this letter.

Thanks