Building new house, want to use Control 4- how much does it cost?

[srthomas21]

Hi everyone,

I went into my local control 4 dealer today check out what they have to offer and to try and price everything out and the guy in the store said that just the dimmers alone could cost up to 25K?

I really couldn't believe this when he said it???

My house will be around 7000 sq ft but the basement probably won't be finished so 5000 sq ft finished space.

I want to do the following

Lighting

Video Distribution

Temp control

Security system

Audio Dist- 6 - 8 zones

Can anyone give a ballpark figure on what a nice setup like this might cost. I'm trying to budget for it but if it really costs 25K for just the dimmers it might be out of my price range.

I know pricing can vary widely but I'm just looking for a ballpark to get the equipment and installation done on a nice (not over the top) system.

Also what do I need to do in order to get the house ready for installation? Just run Cat 5 or 6 to all areas of the house.....or is there more to it than that.

Any help will be appreciated.

[dannyboy]

Hi,

I'm a similar position to yourself. I'm inexperienced in control4, but doing a serious amount of reading,

I'm about to start a house build and was looking to automate as much as possible, but the budget reality has influenced that outcome.

I got a quote and almost gave up thinking I could do this.

However a little research and prioritiation and I'm on track to make it happen

The view I take in my professional projects (IT) is get the fundamentals or the foundations right and leave a bit in the budget for the sexy stuff to sizzle either myself or my employer. For me working out what is an absolute requirement verus a nice to have is usually easy in my work life, but a little more emotional in my personal endevours.

I'm trying to stay objective and take the same approach on building the house.

what this has meant for me, is that Im not compromising on the house size or any of the major capital items that have a long life, or cannot be replaced once installed, but I may sacrafice on fixtures and fittings that can be easily replaced in five years or done over time.

Taking this approach I'll save some dollars to deploy some of the "sexy stuff" (eg control4) day one - but be prepared to test its worth in the real world and see if it is still a priority once the house is moved into. If so, will add to over time.

I run a team of network engineers and my qualified approach is to only use wireless when there is no other wired option (or as an overlay for convenience). BUT, given my challenge of aiming to start small and build- up, wired options (like C-BUS) are expensive from the start. The reason Im ignoring my own wireless rule, is the benefit of being able to retro fit with Control 4 as time goes on.

My suggestion, without pretending to know your personal particulars, is consider that you can work to a budget with control 4 and add on as required. Do you really need dimmers in every room day one? Start with a budget in mind and what is possible and what products exist and get a feel for the unit prices (I used this website http://www.shophhts.com/ to get an idea of RRP prices). knowing the prices help to work out what I can afford.

For me Ive decided day 1 to only use :-

- lighting in bedrooms, home cinema, outside entrance. will add elsewhere over time. 10 pack $1249

- 16 channel Amp/matrix - although I will only connect 4 rooms day 1 using OK speakers, although I'd ideally have 8 + connected over time Amp $2500; speakers $1000

- I dearly wanted HD video distribution to four rooms- I plan to run the cables and look at this later. I found good options - they are just expensive and there are work arounds (like a second DVD player etc..) - $3000

- 3 wall ethernet mini touch screens and one large wireless screen. 3 mini touchs $2100 Large 10 inch wireless $2500

- I have a NAS which i will connect to a Netgear EVA8000 for Movies - not too expensive. $350 (see other posts - very cool)

-HC-300 Controller $700 (add HC200 controllers over time to additional TV locations)

- Security and HVAC Im still getting my head around - but the control 4 aspects of this are not expensive.

In terms of cabling i have a purpose built comms cupboard, with doors on both sides, I plan to run cat 6 x 2 lengths everywhere I may want a phone, computer, printer, TV/projector, wall mounted touch screen etc.. I'm also running speaker wires to each room and conduit ducts down the walls behind TVs to future proof the ability to get other cables down if required.

The solutions for HD TV distribution are either cat 5/6x2 or component cables(so i'll run both)

All up I do not expect to pay more than $15K for an entry solution that can be added to over time.

Good luck - not sure if this helps

[bebster]

Also what do I need to do in order to get the house ready for installation? Just run Cat 5 or 6 to all areas of the house.....or is there more to it than that.

http://swhowto.com/index.htm

[RyanE]

Dannyboy,

That's certainly a level-headed smart way to go about your system.

That's basically what I did before I started working at Control4 (pre-wire for everything I could want, buy as I could afford).

I would only recommend one change to your list. I would recommend that instead of the mini-touch, you buy the 7" in-wall.

The 7" in-wall, although more expensive, is *much* more real estate, and is a nicer, brighter touchscreen with a faster processor and more memory. I think it works enough better than the mini-touch to make it worth doing instead of the mini.

Also, being a 2nd generation product, it's likely to have better support going forward than the mini-touch.

This of course is my opinion, and I work at Control4, so I'm a bit biased.

RyanE

[dhatwell]

My new home is about the same size and we, like you, will not be finishing the basement yet. I installed the following:

- 6 zones audio (2 ipod docks)

- Lighting control in all the corridors, common rooms

- Video distribution

- Security integration

- Two C4 thermostats

I priced it out to about four vendors ranging from start-up to Platinum level. All my quotes included the installation of the cables/cabinets, speakers, devices, initial programming and final programming. All quotes came between $33k and $36k. I did have this sub handle all the low voltage in the house which includes ethernet, TV and phone lines. I couldn't see any benefit of splitting that up between control and non-control.

Good luck and enjoy! Tons of fun.

[dannyboy]

Hi Ryan,

Thank-you for the advice. I do not want to hyjack the orginal post, but hopefully is relavent to a cost v capbility evaluation discussion.

Can I ask specifically, which navigation functions really benefit from the larger screens?

The reason I'm asking is to determine where i might put minis v 7inch v 10.5 inch screens based on what features will be relavent in that location. does this make sense?

Background info

Initially

I'm planning to use the mini-touch screens in the occupied bedrooms, of which there are three (3) (music(via c4 amp}, lighting, TV in master bed).

Remote in the family room (TV - connected to controler, Music{via c4 amp})

10.5 inch touch in the home cinema (lighting, music{via receiver/amp}, Movies, projector). -Just for WOW factor (have already- looks very sexy)

Possible Future

Security and HVAC, additional dimmers, sensors etc..

Add additional mini-touch to offices(x2), guest room, meals and dinning, rumpus

Add 2 x 10.5 inch wall mounted to entry and between family/kitchen(open plan)

Trying to work out what to do with Alfresco (outdoors,under roofline, with ceiling fan, music and lighting) - any suggestions - thinking a wireless mini?

Given the price increase from minis to the 7inch is ~$500, but the 7inchs are over ~$1000 less than the 10.5, I could potentially remain cost neutral in the big picture by replacing 4 to 5 x minis and 2 x 10.5s with 6-7 x 7inch screens. ... Any comment?? Would you sacrfice 10 inchs to 7 inches to upspec from minis to 7inches? and if so why?

Thank-you

[thecodeman]

The thing about the mini touch and the 10.5", as stated, is that they are first generation units. the 7" tablet is the new one, and while not as big as the 10.5", it certainly offers better performance than either the mini or the 10.5. It's the hardware all around that makes it better, plus it's better looking too. I would guess that C4 will someday refresh the smaller touchpanels and larger touchpanels, but we dont know at this time.

As for the OP, it's hard to quote "lighting", if we dont know whether that's one dimmer or 200. I dont think you'll get many dealers who will post their line item prices on the forum or quote it based on the initial amount of information, but I'm sure there are a few that you could contact who would love to discuss it over email or phone.

[RyanE]

I also think I would make the tradeoff and all 7" over a combination of mini/10.5".

First of all, I like the display a lot better than the 10.5 and especially the mini. As Cody said, it's more the difference between a 1st gen product and a 2nd gen product.

The main things that are much better on the 7" over the mini-touch include:

* Photo Screensaver (It's nearly 4 times the real estate, as the mini-touch is a 3.5" screen)...

* IP Camera views / Web Image views. The 7" provides a 640x480 IP camera view, same as the 10", but should perform better, as it's better hardware.

* Popups, etc.

Also, the navigation is better on the 7" all around, because of the larger screen, it acts more like a touchpanel, where the mini-touch has a lot of 'workarounds'.

For example, when you go to a category on the mini-touch, you get a 'selector' screen that lets you choose which device. If you want a different device, you have to go back out to the main screen, then back into the selector screen, then to the device screen. On the 7", it works like the 10.5", you can see the devices across the top, if you want to control a different device of the same type, you touch it on that screen, it goes immediately to that device.

The plastics that are visible to the end user are (IMHO) a little more cheesy on the mini-touch, and don't look as nice as the bezel on the 7". The mini-touch has a small screen, surrounded by a huge bezel, including the button and wheel. The 7" is a cleaner look, with a thin bezel all around. The mini-touch plastics also feel 'thicker' on the wall, which is hard to describe, but if you look at the two side-by-side, you'll know what I'm talking about.

The one area that the mini-touch has a small advantage is that it does have a scroll wheel, which you can use to immediately make the volume in the room go up or down. The 7" has hard buttons that you could program to be vol+/vol- and mute / off to accomplish the same thing.

I'm really not down on mini-touch devices, they're one of the reasons I work at Control4 (I fell in love with how they worked at CES when they were pre-beta and not shipping!)... I think they're definitely a good device, and I have 4-5 of them in my house, but if I were starting now, I don't doubt I'd go with the 7".

RyanE

Edited to add: Also, the 7" is a 16x9 aspect ratio on the screen, which looks more 'modern' than the 4x3 of the mini-touch or 10.5"

[dannyboy]

Makes sense - thank-you. A good learning for me.

I'll look a little closer at the 7inch models.

[srthomas21]

Thanks for all the good replies. A few questions:

Doesn't the Control 4 controller do the same thing as the EVA8000? If not what is the difference?

dhatwell- can you PM me a list of all the components, dimmers and speakers that you used? It would help me get a good idea of what I'm going to need. How many finished sq ft do you have in your new house? Did you add IP cameras? If so which ones.

Again thanks for all the replies.

[akg4y]

Thanks for all the good replies. A few questions:

Doesn't the Control 4 controller do the same thing as the EVA8000? If not what is the difference?

dhatwell- can you PM me a list of all the components, dimmers and speakers that you used? It would help me get a good idea of what I'm going to need. How many finished sq ft do you have in your new house? Did you add IP cameras? If so which ones.

Again thanks for all the replies.

The C4 controller does not do what the EVA8000 does. The EVA8000 streams video, audio, and photos. Most people use it to stream digitized video (DVDs, high definition video files, etc).

The C4 controller acts as the brain for the C4 system (ie runs the software controlling the dimmers, etc). The only 'video' type thing the C4 controller does is output the interface to a TV, so you can control things on your TV screen. The C4 controller can also stream music from either a built in hard drive (HC-500) or USB drive (HC-300/200).

Here are the things I did in my house, and what you need:

1) Audio distribution: Speaker wires run to each 'zone,' generally 2 speakers in each zone but you can do 4 or more but that can burn out components so make sure you know what youre doing if you do that. Each location where you want a local control you need to run a cat5e cable. Basically what I did was run a cat5e cable to the entrance of each room, right above the bank of light switches. In most rooms I installed a 4" LCD, but you can install any of the C4 devices that can adjust volume. The other option is to use the Wifi 4" screens in which case you just need power run to them and no cat5e cable.

In your central location you will need either a 4 channel or 8 channel amp, or multiple amps, depending on how many zones you have.

2) Lighting - No special wiring needed, unless you plan on adding more keypads rather than replacing switches with keypads. Basically the way this works is if you have a single pole switch (one switch controls a light) then you just swap it out with a C4 dimmer or C4 switch (use a switch for fans and if you plan on using CFLs). In a 3-way or 4-way situation (2 or more switches controlling a light) then you put a dimmer at one location and replace the other locations with keypads (either, 2, 3, or 6 button keypads). I would use a 2 button keypad only where you want to just control that same light (because it looks exactly like the dimmer), and 3 or 6 button keypads everywhere else because they add much more functionality. If you want a keypad somewhere where you arent replacing a light switch then you just have to run power to that keypad.

3) Irrigation - Run 3-4 cat5e cables from your central location to the spot where your irrigation control is.

4) Security - Most systems just require a single RS232 connection between a C4 controller and the security system from what I understand. I went with the GE Concord 4 system and bought the automation module (the part that connects to C4). I would recommend doing everything wireless for security with the possible exception of your exterior door contacts and siren. I spent a decent amount of money on wiring because I was worried about my wireless sensors giving false alarms but the wireless sensors are functioning flawlessly. You may not want to put your security panel right where your other equipment is in order to reduce the potential for interference. A dedicated electrical should be run for your security panel.

5) Video distribution - This varies, but to be safe I would run component video to each location (3 coax cables), RCA audio (2 coax cables), one digital audio (coax or optical), and three cat 5 or cat 6 cables (cat 6 preferred, but more expensive). It gets a little complicated when you consider whether or not you have locations where you want to have 'local' components plus access to the video distribution. For example, in my bedrooms I just wanted access to the video and audio from the sources in the basement, so I just ran those above wires to each spot where I planned to mount a TV in those rooms (dont forget to get a power plug run up there also). Now in a spot like the family room I wanted to have a separate receiver (because I have a 5.2 sound setup there) and a local DVD player to watch DVDs. I ran the above wires to the spot where I will have the equipment, and then from that spot I ran an HDMI cable to where I have the TV. You may want to make sure you have a receiver tha will upconvert all component video signals to HDMI, because otherwise you will need to run component as well. I ran a cat5e from the receiver location to the TV as well, because you should generally have a C4 controller at any dedicated theater location and the C4 controller will control my TV via RS232 using that cat5e cable. I also ran a data cable to the receiver (2) and TV locations so I can connect the C4 controller, video player (EVA8000 etc), and TV directly to my network. One more thing, I ran a point to point power connection from the TV to the receiver location so that I can have a power conditioner near the receiver but have the TV connected to it.

5B) Also, if you want the option of having a local satellite receiver etc in one room then you need to run a coax wire for that. I actually ran 2 to my 'theaters' and 1 to a few other rooms, but this was a bit excessive.

6) Theaters - Run speaker cables depending on how many speakers you have (5 or 7), and coax cables where you have subwoofers (generally 1 or 2). If you think you might want a projector one day, run the video cables now and get the power outlet in the ceiling or the power bridge I mentioned above. Wherever you put your screen consider the lighting carefully (one thing I forgot), you may want lights near the screen to be on a separate circuit and you may want lights that are directly above the screen that dim when you press 'start movie' to give a movie theater effect.

7) Cameras - I used the Panasonic cameras and they are awesome. Run a cat5e cable to each location. If you want audio from the camera mics to go back to your audio distribution system then you need to send another cat5e cable. If you dont need audio you can use wireless cameras but theyre generally not as good.

8) Doorbells, etc - Take a look at the Card Access products to see if there is anything else you find worthwhile and plan accordingly.

9) Basic home network - cat5e to each location. If you think you'll need a wireless access point, plan accordingly with a cat5e cable to an optimal location.

10) Phone - Not as important nowadays with most phones being cordless, but remember if you want a fax machine somewhere then you'll need a hardwired line. I put one on each floor and one in the study.

Hope that helps.

[mercedes]

I am a new user of Control4. We installed it in our new home when we built. Our system would be considered very large. 7 controllers, 70+ dimmers/switches, keypads, IP cameras, A/V distrubutiuon to 14 zones. It is a whole lot of fun. One thing that I would recommend is not to under estimate the power of the SR250 remote for general system control. I have a 7" wall mount and the 7" portable. I find that the touch screens are nice and add a lot of "flash" to the system, but we normally use the remotes or just the TV interface to control most things. I was moving down the path of a touch screen in every room and my dealer recommend that I wire for those now just in case, but not invest in them until we get confortable with the system. I am glad he did that. It has saved me thousands of dollars.

[CFUG]

I too use many SR-250s and find them easy to tote around. But, they are not that useful if you use Rhapsody or rely on cover-art selection most of the time. Plus, they seem to go offline or display-freeze sometimes. If you position the 7 in-walls just right, you can service more than zone better than with a few 250s. Lastly, I cannot recommend, ironically, the 7 WiFi if your purpose is to use it everywhere. So, my suggestion is to invest in 7 in-walls as much as your budget allows.

[bebster]

Does the 7-inch touchscreen have a rough-in box?

And if so, what's the C4 part number to order?

[henniae]

Does the 7-inch touchscreen have a rough-in box?

And if so, what's the C4 part number to order?

There are new construction and retro boxes for the 7-inch touchscreen in both metal and plastic.

New Construction

Plastic model (C4-NWB7-P)

Metal model (C4-NWB7-M)

Retro

Plastic model (C4-RWB7-P)

Metal model (C4-RWB7-M)

If you are a dealer you can look these up on the dealer portal. There is a PDF for the new construction and a PDF for the retrofit.

[brian m]

stick with the metal boxes - they are worth the extra expense

[CFUG]

Why? I used new construction plastic back boxes and they were fine.

[henniae]

Why? I used new construction plastic back boxes and they were fine.

The metal boxes are MUCH stronger than the plastic ones.

I like the metal for new construction and the plastic for retrofit.