C4 prices in Australia: complete rip-off

[cezar_oz]

I just got back from Australian version of CEDIA where I picked up a full C4 catalog with local RRP pricing.

If someone at this forum thinks that what you are paying in the US is expensive, think twice and here's why. Currently the exchange rate (AUD/USD) is around 0.8, i.e. for US$1 you'll get AU$0.8. According to http://www.shophhts.com the retail prices in the US are:

Control4 Home Controller HC-500 $1495.00, which is equivalent to AU$1,869. The local RRP however is ... AU$3,599, which is AU$1,730 or 93% extra. If you think it's bad - keep reading....

Wireless Dimmer $129, which is equivalent to AU$161. The RRP is ... AU$319, which is AU$158 or 98% extra.

Composer-HE $149, which is equivalent to AU$186. The RRP is ... AU$399, which is AU$213 or 114% over the list price in the US. And here's my personal favorite

Control4 Home Controller HC-200: $399.00, which is equivalent to AU$499. The RRP is ... AU$1,199, a whooping AU$700 or 140% extra!!!!!!!

The list goes on. And on. And on.

I understand that there are some shipping costs involved, but as they are dealing in bulk this expense should be rather minimal. I can't think of anything else.

As noted in a number of posts there are always some discounts that you'd get from the dealers, depending on the size of your job. But a discount in the US will probably be a similar discount (%-wise) in the AUS. Which means that this incredible pricing gap is still there.

I walked away from the C4 stand with a few very unpleasant words in my mind, extortion being the most mild. I then turned around and had a very detailed look at the stands next door - HAI, vNet and C-Bus. I even managed to find a lone Lutron distributor and we had a very good chat.

Bottom line - C4 is a great product and the price - if you are in the US - is not too bad either. However the company's policy to force you into the arms of local dealers means that some of them are taking advantage of this captive audience (with C4's tacit approval?). Unless I can get the parts here, in Australia, at the US-quoted prices it is unlikely that I will proceed with C4 and will settle on something else...... unless one of the US folks is planning a working holiday in AUS and can bring all the hardware (and then do all the support remotely)

[henniae]

Perhaps a large part of the cost increase is the VAT that the Australian government adds.

I one worked for a large fortune 50 company. I shipped a Cisco router to Australia from the US and to my surprise there was a very large VAT added. Something like $15,000 USD.

[cezar_oz]

Perhaps a large part of the cost increase is the VAT that the Australian government adds.

I one worked for a large fortune 50 company. I shipped a Cisco router to Australia from the US and to my surprise there was a very large VAT added. Something like $15,000 USD.

VAT (or GST as it's known here) is 10%. I presume that the US prices that I got online have the local tax included. There would probably also be some import taxes, but from my experience they aren't that large either.

[In Control]

Cezar_oz - I hear what you say about RRPs in Australia (I too am in oz). However I have found that it is not too hard to get what I thought were fairly reasonable discounts. Best advice would be to have a chat to a couple of dealers.

Henniae - GST (our version of VAT) is only 10%.

[RyanE]

Sales tax / use tax, etc. is *not* included in any MSRP from Control4.

VAT is also going to be on top of any additional import tariffs, etc.

Control4 is sold internationally through distributors, who also have to maintain staff for training, dealer management, inventory, etc., and I believe set the pricing in their area.

Any issues with (complaints about, etc.) international pricing should be addressed to the specific distributor.

RyanE

[ILoveC4]

That pricing is certainly way out there.

[jberger]

When I lived down under (mid 80's) everything that was imported from the US cost about twice as much as it did back in the states. Not only are you dealing with an imported product, there are regulations requiring a subsidary company, setting up local support, dealer networks, etc. It's not just the cost of shipping from Salt Lake to Sydney.

From what I can see on the dealer forums, Alan Chow and & Company do a great job writing drivers, providing support, etc for the market down there. Did you compare the cost of C4 to Lutron?

On the bright side, you do sometimes get a break being so close to the asian electronics builders on gear like TV's, PC's, etc. Not to mention some of the best diving & surfing spots in the world.

[akg4y]

I guess as long as you can install the stuff yourself you could always order from a dealer in the US, pay shipping costs and import taxes and then have a dealer remotely program it?

[cezar_oz]

I realise that there's no free lunch and local C4 mob has their upkeep costs (however they still get revenue from the training courses, etc - but that's a different story). However the markup is just staggering.

Lutron is not that much more expensive if you want similar functionality (this will require HW package). The list price is within 10%, but programming will probably be a bit more complex/expensive. For more basic setup (2-3 Grafik Eye QS, QS I/O module, etc) the price is much lower.

akg4y - it's not a bad thought. The only catch - I suppose - is that we'll need to order 240V parts. I can't see any explicit restrictions on doing this (Ryan may correct this )

[RyanE]

I'm not the person who dictates or interprets dealer agreements, and since I've never read one, I'm not even going to speculate.

If I were to speculate, I don't know if (according to the dealer agreement) dealers are allowed to sell into somewhere that a distributor sells to (typically foreign sales). I'd guess no.

RyanE

P.S. Disclaimer: Like I said above, I don't speak for Control4 or their dealer policies, etc.

[wappinghigh]

I guess as long as you can install the stuff yourself you could always order from a dealer in the US, pay shipping costs and import taxes and then have a dealer remotely program it?

Could I please have a link for some overseas US dealers who program remotely.....I'd be interested in this...

[wappinghigh]

I realise that there's no free lunch and local C4 mob has their upkeep costs (however they still get revenue from the training courses, etc - but that's a different story). However the markup is just staggering.

Lutron is not that much more expensive if you want similar functionality (this will require HW package). The list price is within 10%, but programming will probably be a bit more complex/expensive. For more basic setup (2-3 Grafik Eye QS, QS I/O module, etc) the price is much lower.

akg4y - it's not a bad thought. The only catch - I suppose - is that we'll need to order 240V parts. I can't see any explicit restrictions on doing this (Ryan may correct this )

Yep..I agree. It seems steep, but it is part of the problem of living in the arse end of the world....economy of scale and all that...just try getting a quote for an AMX system,..try $6,000 AUD for a single wireless controller! In short I'm not sue it is purely a C4 problem. Look at HIFI, or any other "unique" imported product with local distributor support. Just about everything you buy here is 50%-100% dearer in comparisons to a direct exchange in USD, even though the exchange rate fluctuates above this. Don't forget, it wasn't so long ago when USD:AUD was 1:0.5 !!

[wappinghigh]

Perhaps a large part of the cost increase is the VAT that the Australian government adds.

I one worked for a large fortune 50 company. I shipped a Cisco router to Australia from the US and to my surprise there was a very large VAT added. Something like $15,000 USD.

Yep VAT (GST) has everything to do with it. It is also about the fact that we are a small population, a bloody long way away from everywhere else. It is frustrating though. I find the same situation for Apple products and other tech gear. Even though they all come out of the same Chinese factory, we Aussies seem to cop a huge mark up in prices. Unfortunately there are no Cosco's here. Just lots of middlemen taking their cut and marking up prices. But what can you do, other than import the stuff directly (like I have with Sonos gear) ...In the end the "market" will sort everything out: If the local importer is charging too much and not providing a service that is worthwhile, he/she will go out of business. It's a global economy after all. Vote with your feet (wallet) if you don't like it and buy off ebay....but don't forget there is a huge setup factor...I'm not sure you'd want the hastle of being left with a lot of gear that wasn't programmed properly...what would be the added cost of correcting that?? :/

[cezar_oz]

VAT (GST) has nothing to do with it. It is all about the fact that we are a small population, a bloody long way away from everywhere else. It is frustrating though. I find the same situation for Apple products and other tech gear. Even though they all come out of the same Chinese factory, we Aussies seem to cop a huge mark up in prices. Unfortunately there are no Cosco's here. Just lots of middlemen taking their cut and marking up prices. But what can you do, other than import the stuff directly (like I have with Sonos gear)

Back to my point - we are a captive audience and C4's policy of forcing you into the hands of local dealers/distributors does not help to say the least.

Cosco will hopefully open up soon in Sydney by the way, I know somebody who's working on bringing it here.

[berazafi]

As someone who lived in AUS, now in Canada, and with a background in the electrical approval process (in AUS) the international importer is responsible for all local regulations and modification of the product to meet the local requirements, this process for certain items can cost 10s and 10s of thousands of dollars, and if the market is fairly small for the product being sold that cost will be shown in the MSRP.

So yes the MSRP between North America and AUS is huge you will also find the same in a lot of USA (North American) electrical items being exported into AUS

If only the whole world could agree on a standard!!

Dave

[wappinghigh]

Wrong! This is a problem with the ridiculous cost of compliance with the Australian regulations and Government TAX.

What a farce. Using Control4, Sonos and Apple gear as examples: We all know there is nothing much different "electrically" between the American vs Australian product. Universal power supplies and plug pack power of gear has sorted these issues out. As for the wireless side, no difference here again.....so what exact "modifications" are we paying for?

We are paying for some huge department in Canberra to sit on their buts all day "approving" or "disapproving" what basically will work straight out of the box in both Countries. Then on top of that we pay a huge import duty TAX. Why? To "protect" local manufacturers!! Well guess what....THERE AREN'T ANY! Then there is GST on top of that..a double tax grab!

Like Petrol, Basically the blame for these outrageous cost increases lies squarely with the Australian Government and it's TAX take. Not the importer. This is the sort of inefficiency I thought the ACCC and the Free Trade Agreement bodies should be looking at- holding Government to task. Not the importers or retailers. Their margin is tiny in comparison. But then it's government bodies policing their own spending! And we all know THAT will never happen. What a joke.

Costs will only come down when government barriers to proper competition are removed, and free trade flourishes between counties. Take the example of travel...Look at what is happening with falling airfares across the Pacific.

But for electrical goods, free trade is not allowed.

What is actually needed is the US government to get tough on the Australian Government. To ask them the question.."Why are you putting financial penalties on our exported goods" I mean all these products come out of the same Chinese factory anyway! It's all about the lack of free trade. The US slaps a huge TAX on imported Aussie beef to protect some inefficient beef farmer in Texas and we do the same over here with electrical goods. That is the REAL issue.

[RyanE]

I think in terms of 120V vs. 220V, he's not talking about the controllers, etc., but about the fact that *distributors* sometimes have to source or create 220V solutions, which adds to their overhead being a distributor.

RyanE

[In Control]

Wrong! This is a problem with the ridiculous cost of compliance with the Australian regulations and Government TAX.

.

I did a bit of reading on this. From what I can tell, the Government imposed tariff on the import is 5%.

There is also an additional (undisclosed, as far as I can tell) cost to "certify" an electrical product before it can be used in Aus.

I'd guess that this is pretty standard across most countries.

[wappinghigh]

5 % is sort of correct...but there are more costs....and the "tax on a tax" compounds things...

Lets use the HC-500 as it was cezar oz's original example.

Lets say the Australian importer buy's it for $1495 USD when the USD:AUD was 0.75. This = $2000 AUD

Australian customs charges 5% then other shipping/insurance charges, then slaps 10% GST on that.

The total import charge are $325 AUD

So the HC-500 now costs $2350 AUD to the importer sitting on the warf.

He/she then has to pay for shipping/storage/marketing/support/installer education/other government compliance costs on top of that.

He might sell it to the installer for lets say $500 more to cover these costs. (I don't know this as fact: this is a huge guess) THEN 10% GST

So the installer gets it for $2850.00 plus $285 = $3135.00

By the time he adds his margin to cover installation and programming costs and 10% GST (again!)....you can see how the cost might get to $3599.00 (the installer margin is only around $100 in this example)

Now I'm not defending the importer here or anything...but I do know they run a very tight ship. They have a very lean organisation run out of a very inexpensive office. And he provides great service.

The real sleeper here is the governments GST...the 10% has be added at least 3, possibly 4 times...this compounds the cost to the end purchaser (ie the consumer). All the various "middlemen" claim it back as a tax credit AND THE GST IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PASSED ONTO THE CONSUMER MULTIPLE TIMES...but my guess is they don't do this. Just like in the building industry...they keep this GST tax credit for themselves....

[wappinghigh]

I think in terms of 120V vs. 220V, he's not talking about the controllers, etc., but about the fact that *distributors* sometimes have to source or create 220V solutions, which adds to their overhead being a distributor.

RyanE

But all the C4 equipment uses either a universal power supply or a wall/floor wart (we call them plug packs)...all the distributor has to do here is buy a different power cord or external transformer....

As for the compounding GST issue, you need to understand the history and politics of it's introduction. The previous government, when they "sold" it to the electorate promised they would make it equitable by cutting all the other tax's and tarrifs (as compensation) :but this was NOT done because of state vs federal politics. They also set up a consumer watchdog to police the "compounding effect". But this body has been very ineffectual. We have been let down by subsequent governments and their departments NOT doing their job on this. The government doesn't care. They collect their GST 3-4 times. They are the real villain here as I have said before....Eventually consumers like cezar oz, just say "enough is enough" and balk. They don't go ahead with a purchase...

I might add by selling direct, this is why ebay and amazon do a roaring trade here in Australia

[RyanE]

Yes, that's why I said he was NOT talking about controllers, etc. It's mainly lighting I was talking about.

Some distributors have to source their *own* lighting products for their countries, which does add cost.

RyanE

[cezar_oz]

On a positive note (of sorts ), Crestron, Lutron and other imported automation stuff will be in the same boat. Only C-Bus (made locally, in Adelaide) enjoys lower cost base (yet that does not stop them from charging a premium ...)

[wappinghigh]

Hey Cezar...

I hope you are aware that the Australian distributor has written a cbus driver? It actually works! Another example of value adding....

[wappinghigh]

VAT (GST) has nothing to do with it. It is all about the fact that we are a small population' date=' a bloody long way away from everywhere else. It is frustrating though. I find the same situation for Apple products and other tech gear. Even though they all come out of the same Chinese factory, we Aussies seem to cop a huge mark up in prices. Unfortunately there are no Cosco's here. Just lots of middlemen taking their cut and marking up prices. But what can you do, other than import the stuff directly (like I have with Sonos gear)[/quote']

Back to my point - we are a captive audience and C4's policy of forcing you into the hands of local dealers/distributors does not help to say the least.

Cosco will hopefully open up soon in Sydney by the way, I know somebody who's working on bringing it here.

Are you implying C4 gear will be on sale in Cosco in Australia? The Melbourne store opened today....

[ILoveC4]

I couldn't see Costco selling C4....