Just Add Power HDMI over IP - techncial discussion

[ILoveC4]

$1,299 is our MSRP. Your Control4 dealer will determine what type of discount they want to offer.

Thanks Ed, I really appreciate that.

This gives me (and hopefully many other potential clients) something to go off of so you can feel good when making the purchase.

I truly appreciate it.

[Nded]

I checked over at AVS Forums- not much excitement over this product like there is here

Sometimes it amazes me how AVS Forums has an almost magnetic attraction for self proclaimed experts who have the ability to discount and discredit something they've never actually tried, seen, or even understand. The very name of this forum, "Push the Envelope", is a concept that many of the most prolific posters over there could not begin to comprehend. It is a blessing for the C4 community to have a place where innovation is nurtured, not slaughtered.

[3fingerbrown]

I follow the "Home A/V Distribution & Networking" Forum over on AVS, and I've noticed the same thing, they didn't pay any attention to this technology and you still see a post every day wondering/arguing over which company makes a cheap and reliable HDMI matrix switch: Gefen? Octava? (Answer: None of them!!!!).

They are a hard-headed lot, as Ed suggests, but I think it is also a group of DIY'ers that generally scoff at any dealer installed technology like Control4, and you need some type of home automation system to run HDMI-over-IP. I also follow the Dedicated Theater Design and Construction Thread, and you would be amazed at how almost every one of these guys will spend a ton of cash and time on their theater, only to control it all with a piece of crap Harmony remote (or even just a stack of remotes!). Its definitely a more open-minded mentality over here...

[Nded]

I’ll be at CES next month and the HDMI over IP solution will be displayed in the Control4 pavillion under the Blackwire Designs section. We’ll have the Rackmount Transmitter on display, and maybe something else new (more on that later). I’ll be happy to schedule meetings with anybody who’s coming to the show. If you show up at the booth and I’m not there, they will be able to call me on my cell phone. Send me a PM or an email to ed @ justaddpower.com if you want to schedule something in advance.

[VinceC]

So it's been a while since this thread got started. Surely by now someone else has ordered and tried this video distribution system?

Has anyone used this in an installation yet? What has your experience been like?

Do you notice any issues with the quality of the video signal?

Have you seen the audio / video cut out often?

Have you run across any strange limitations in terms of HDCP keys or video not working through certain receivers or other 3rd party hdmi switchers?

I looking to get some more opinions or some hardcore testing results before I start spec'ing this into systems.

Thanks,

-Vince

[Nded]

The most recent thread discussing installation experience is in the General Discussion board at

http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=4730&p=2

and

http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=4910

[spugh]

I was initially excited about this product, but being a network engineer focused on the video/media technologies, I don't agree with the way the JAP products were architected. This could have been a true multicast solution which would have been awesome. From my understanding, each of the transmitters comes shipped with the same private IP address in the 192.168.x.x address space. Each of the receivers comes programmed to connect to that one IP address that all transmitters are assigned.

They then rely on the switch to put each transmitter into an individual VLAN transmitter 1 = VLAN 10, Transmitter 2 = VLAN 20, Transmitter 3 = VLAN 30, etc. Transmitter 1 is attached to port 1 on the switch, transmitter 2 to port 2, etc. The receivers for a particular zone are attached to another port family room = port 10, theater - port 11, master bedroom = port 12, etc. If someone in the family room wants to watch the source attached to transmitter 2, some control system has to send a command to the switch to change port 10 to put it into VLAN 20. If they decide to change "channels" to the source attached to transmitter 3, the control system sends a command to the switch to change port 10 to put it into VLAN 30.

If they had designed the system to be true multicast, each of the transmitters would be configured with an individual multicast address in the 224.x.x.x - 239.x.x.x space (for example 224.1.1.10 for transmitter 1, 224.1.1.20 for transmitter 2, etc.). Multicast was intended to be used on large scale networks of with potentially vast numbers of switches, but it works the same on one single switch. A receiver would be connected to the network with a 192.168.x.x (or whatever your addressing is) which it could get via DHCP from your router just like any PC that joins your home network. It would have intelligence built in to know what multicast streams were available. When the user in the family room wanted to see the source material attached to transmitter 3, they change the channel and the receiver sends a signal to the switch that it wants to join group 224.1.1.30. The switch sets the port that transmitter is attached to to be in the multicast group for that stream.

I'm not sure why the people at JAP didn't go down this path. This is essentially how IPTV systems work and how the industry is moving. For instance, in the very near future cable providers everywhere will be offering IPTV service. Essentially they will provide you a set-top box to replace the traditional cable box. It will be a receiver like I am describing above. The cable provider will put each individual cable channel (and VoD movies, shows, content) onto a seperate multicast stream on a particular multicast address. HGTV on 224.1.1.200, TOON on 224.1.1.211, CNN on 224.1.1.222, ABC on 224.1.1.223, HBO1 on 224.2.2.400, SHO3 on 224.2.100.103, etc. Each of these channels gets blasted across the cable providers network from the core outwards. However, they each stream only propagates outward if there is a subscriber somewhere downstream requesting that channel. If you have 3 set-top boxes all set to HGTV, the cable provider switch port that connects to your house only sends the stream from HGTV (AKA 224.1.1.200) to your house. If the kids switch to TOON, their set-top box sends a signal out to "leave group 224.1.1.200" and "join group 224.1.1.211". If the person in the master bedroom wants to switch from HGTV to the source attached to the local transmitter 1, their set-top box would send a "leave group 224.1.1.200" and "join group 224.1.1.10".

I think this utopian ease of setting up local sources and broadcast channels from service providers is only a few years away. Seems like JAP, could have architected their product on true multicast and been ahead of the curve. Just my humble opinion though.

[rayk32]

JAP only uses the IGMP part of multicast. Being a network engineer, I can't really see an installer learning to implement "full blown" multicast on a home network, much less trying to troubleshoot it. Also there is potential complexity added by the way HDCP handshakes would work in a mulitcast environment. There's the problem of just passing keys from one device to another and the fact that some devices have a limited number of keys to pass. The Hollywood lawyers would have a major fit with the fact that multiple streams of their precious content could be sent to unlimited devices ... that is essence of multicast.

I have JAP running in my project and it works beautifully ... just make sure it is running on its own switch, with no other networks configured.

[Nded]

The Power over Ethernet Receiver for HDMI over IP has been posted at www.justaddpower.com. The product details are online at http://www.justaddpower.com/Projector-Connector%E2%84%A2-CAT5-Extenders/97-HDMI-over-IP-Power-over-Ethernet-Receiver/flypage.tpl.html . Dealers can pre-order their PoE Receivers through Blackwire Designs. They should be able to start shipping at the end of the month, and possibly much sooner. The backorders for Rackmount Transmitters should be filled the first week of April.

FYI, the PoE Receiver can be installed as a Class 2 PoE device, as it only draws 6 watts. This makes the HDMI over IP solution very "green".

[thecodeman]

Nice work Ed, looking forward to it!

[bebster]

If I were to use the PoE Receivers and the Rackmount Transmitters, do the Rackmount Transmitters provide POE, or do I need separate injectors for each transmitter cat5/6 cable?

[dgbrown]

POE will come from your network switch not the transmitters, assuming your switch supports POE. If not you will need injectors.

[henniae]

If I were to use the PoE Receivers and the Rackmount Transmitters, do the Rackmount Transmitters provide POE, or do I need separate injectors for each transmitter cat5/6 cable?

If the transmitters are in the rack why bother with PoE? In the rack you probably have power available for the transformers to the transmitters.

[Nded]

There is no PoE option on the Transmitters - whether you use the single TX or the Rackmount TX you must have access to a power outlet. The PoE Receivers can receive power from either a PoE compatible Ethernet switch or a PoE "injector" used in conjunction with a standard Ethernet switch. You can mix/match all 4 HDMI over IP devices to as needed to match the needs of the installation.

[shaneoneill]

As we promised at CEDIA, we have developed the Rackmount Transmitter for HDMI over IP. This new model is 1 RU (19" of course) and has 3 HDMI Inputs and 3 Ethernet Outputs. Here's a picture of the new model:

http://www.justaddpower.com/images/stories/products/Rackmount-TX-1.jpg

We will have this newest member of the HDMI over IP family available for examination at CES in the Blackwire Designs Control4 booth. I'll hit Kevin Luther up for the booth number.

This is so cool.

[Nded]

Version 2 of the Just Add Power HDMI over IP Rackmount Transmitter starts shipping next week. I want to especially thank Scottedge, cory, CCD, quallabone,ceied, 2ndRick, and Innovative A/V over at Integration Pros Forums for their clear direction on what we needed to do to make the Rackmount Transmitter work for the custom installer market. The V2 Rackmount Transmitter is "convertible", allowing the installer to place power outlet on either side (the CE side and the IT side). There are also correctly spaced wing holes one both sides. Here are some pictures that tell the story.

At first glance the V2 Rackmount Transmitter looks about the same as the V1 Rackmount Transmitter:

However, if you look closely at the Just Add Power logo on the IT side you'll see that there are 2 screws on the name badge:

If you remove the screws, behind the name badge you'll find knockouts for the power button and the IEC power cord interface:

Which means you can now put all of the cables, cords, and connections on the same IT side of the Rackmount Transmitter.

Giving us the following assembled appearance:

The next thing we did was place wing holes on both sides:

So there is no longer a front side or a back side from a wings perspective, just the original IT side and the new and improved CE side. Note how the wings line up correctly on both sides:

Now to get it right, the pro's at IP Forum's also told us we needed the diagnostic LED's on the CE Front:

Here we see the complete CE side with the wings oriented for mounting on the front of the rack:

Note how the convertible name badge covers the unused power switch and IEC plug holes on the CE front:

And for those IT thinkers who preferred the V1 format, here is how the V2 Rackmount Transmitter looks with the power cord on the CE side.

The new V2 Rackmount Transmitter for HDMI over IP will be on display at EHX this week in the Just Add Power booth (#526).

[ILoveC4]

Looks good Ed!

[henniae]

Nice idea with the power cables!

[spugh]

Those are some great improvements. Glad to see a company that is so responsive to customer/dealer/integrator input and willing to quickly make changes to a HW platform. There's one thing you might add in V3, as a nice to have flexibility. If you increase the component side length of the rack ears by 50% and add another pair of holes, it would allow installation in the new configuration but recessed into the rack a couple of inches. I have done this a lot in the past with Cisco network gear mounted in a rack with a door when cabling was at the front. It helps to eliminate severe radius cable cable bends and times when a right angle power cord might otherwise be required. Other thing is that you could offer these rack ears as a separate part number for retrofit and/or only ordered if needed.

Attached is a quick pic of what I am talking about.

Thanks,

Steve

[ERDrPC]

Ed,

Will JAP ever consider non-compressed video and/or surround sound audio?

[Nded]

Ed,

Will JAP ever consider non-compressed video and/or surround sound audio?

Just Add Power labs will consider anything - we are always working on ways to improve and enhance our products. You may have noticed that we have established a pattern of coming out with new and improved devices on a regular basis. I expect that pattern to continue for some time.

[ILoveC4]

Just Add Power labs will consider anything - we are always working on ways to improve and enhance our products. You may have noticed that we have established a pattern of coming out with new and improved devices on a regular basis. I expect that pattern to continue for some time.

That is both refreshing and encouraging.

Thanks Ed...I'm excited to see what the future holds for this exciting new technology.

[pharmdsmith]

I wish my patients listened half as well as you. Great work Nded!!

[spugh]

I was wondering if any of the JAP guys can tell us if there are any plans for other types of interfaces on transmitters and receivers in the works. I'm thinking specifically about component + digital audio and/or component + stereo. I am considering the JAP solution, and in my particular situation have an Escient media manager (with 5 Sony 777ES DVD Changers behind it) that doesn't have HDMI as a potential source for a transmitter and a Slingbox Pro with no HDMI as a potential receiver. I know there are adapters out there to do a conversion on each end, but that can cost as much or more than the JAP receiver and just adds another point of failure in the system. Also, if I have to go that route, how will the receiver unit know what resolution to output to the device on the other side of the adapter?

Do you have any recommendations for a standard def display in a deployment using your system? I know, I know... it's not my choice to keep that TV, but it happens to be a TV built into the door of my LG fridge in the kitchen, so replacement is not really much of an option.

One other question is that I know the receivers have built-in scalers to change the stream into what the display natively supports, but do the transmitters have have any upscaling capability at all?

Thanks,

Steve

[rayk32]

Check out Kevin Luther at Blackwire Designs. He sells a complete JAP solution, with component-to-HDMI converters that work very well. The converter is much less than a JAP transmitter.

http://www.blackwiredesigns.com