Warranty work -- $150 or more to replace dimmer?

[sparky7]

Hi,

I hired a C4 installer to put in some C4 equipment and a GE security system in new construction, which was finished up about 10 months ago. Total was about $13k. Recently, one of the dimmers went dead. The installer is telling me that the replacement dimmer is covered under warranty, but to program it, it would be $75/hour, 2 hour minimum. I told him I would take care of the wiring and that his guys could do the programming remotely -- would probably take about 10 minutes. He told me it would still be $150 minimum, even if the programming were done remotely (he cited the time to do paperwork for the RA, etc...)

My question is: Is it reasonable to expect that in this situation, warranty work should be free, or at least 'actual time' instead of '$150 minimum'?

Thanks.

[stash]

I would find a new dealer.

Fast.

[Letran]

Very good question. I'd like to know myself.

One, that is unbelievable, to replace a defective dimmer that you paid him originally to put in.

Two, when it is under warranty does Control4 not cover or reimburse the dealer for it.

Three, is it norm of any service agreement by most dealers to reinstall free of charge defective C4 product bought through them?

What is the general rule on this matters? I understand minimum charges for new services specially if the dealer is going to roll a truck. But online support, to fix a broken product that I bought from you and I paid you to install to begin with.

Something is not right with this picture.

[nikon]

That 2 hour minimum charge for remote programming is rediculous to just identify a dimmer.

[henniae]

Let's forget about the specific C4 issue here for a second for the purposes of discussion.

In general a manufacturer warranty covers defects in material and workmanship of the product and usually does not cover the costs to install the product. In addition most product warranties only cover replacement of the product and not any other losses you suffer from the failure of the product.

Here is the actual warranty from a C4 product. You can see what it covers and does not cover. If you read most warranties they will say about the same thing.

Limited 2 Year Warranty

This device has a limited two (2) year warranty on parts from the date of

purchase. Control4 will replace or repair any defective unit. Return unit to the

place of purchase for replacement. For any damages incurred, the warranty

will never exceed the purchase price of the device. This warranty does not

cover installation, removal, or reinstallation cost. The warranty is not valid in

cases where damage was incurred due to misuse, abuse, incorrect repair, or

improper wiring or installation. It does not cover incidental or consequential

damage. This warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you might also be

entitled to other rights that vary from state to state. Some states do not allow

limitations on how long an implied warranty lasts or the exclusion or limitation

of incidental or consequential damages. In these cases, the above

mentioned limitations might not apply to you. For complete warranty

information, see http://www.control4.com/dealer/

That being said each C4 dealer has the right to handle warranty work on their own terms.

I have replaced many products C4 and non-C4 for warranty reasons and have seldom been reimbursed for the time spent installing the replacement product or for my time to process the replacement or the cost of sending it back.

As I said each dealer can handle this as he wishes. Some may not charge you and some may want to charge you.

[NkySpike65]

I totally understand, and agree with what henniae is saying, but some times it just feels like double dipping to those who have to pay out the cash... I understand it's really not, but it sucks...

sparky7, have them come out and do the 10 min job, but make them wait the other 1:50 before you pay them. You ARE paying them to be there for 2 hrs. Mights as well have fun with it. You do know there is 15,000 pennies in $150... ; )

[Letran]

I REALLY do not want to start an argument, Just expressing my opinions.

"C4's business model is Distributor/Dealer is not DIY"

Example A:

If I buy a AC Unit from a hardware STORE pay them to install it. 10mths later stops working, warranty replaces it.

If I wanted it reinstalled. I KNOW i have to pay again.

I bought a product DID NOT have to buy the SERVICE.

I had a CHOICE to install it myself

IF I wanted to pay somebody to do it MY prerogative.

Basic terms warranty for most products. UNDERSTOOD

Example B: If I buy a new car from a DEALERship, 10mths later stops working, warranty will REPAIR & REPLACE.

MFg will pay and reimburse the dealership for their time to fix the mfg defect.

I bought the PRODUCT & SERVICE when you buy NEW you did not have a CHOICE. Thats their business model & they stand by it

(by the way, my still-not-working-right C4 system is becoming more expensive than my car)

C4 Example: "C4's Distributor/DEALER model"

If I buy a new HC1000 from a C4 Dealer End user (no choice) HAD to pay them to install it. BUYS PRODUCT & SERVICE. 10mths later stops working, C4 REPLACES it. NOT reinstall.

WHO did they expect to reinstall in their business model? The end user? It becomes and end-user business model?

The poor dealer probably now has a livid customer in their hands. Either lose time and money to reinstall. Or get the poor end user who did not have the CHOICE to begin with to PAY not ONCE but TWICE because of a mfg defect.

What if it breaks again within two years?

DO NOT get me wrong I DO NOT have a problem with their business model.

But it looks to me that they double dip when it comes to warranty repairs, and changes business models when its convenient.

SALES Business Model Distributor/Dealer : End user HAVE to pay DEALER to install their product

Product DEFECTIVE ---> C4 to pay dealer to reinstall defective product? Oh no that's not our business model too

End user HAVE to pay AGAIN to reinstall the defective product

Doesn't dealers have a problem with this?

[jayace]

Henniae - you can't forget the specific C4 issue here because it's the C4 model that makes it an issue. We're not talking about a TV or stereo you purchase and install yourself.

The problem with the C4 warranty here is that only C4 benefits. If the dealer charges the customer they technically benefit, but they likely have an unhappy customer. If the customer pays, they certainly don't benefit. C4 doesn't have to pay anyone so they win. A major flaw in the business model as far as protecting the customer if you ask me. The dealer should be billing their time back to C4 just like an auto dealership would. After all, who's product is it that fails? The dealer shouldn't suffer and absorb the labour costs but the customer shouldn't have to pay if they are "forced" to have someone come and replace it. C4's warranty policy does not adequately protect the customer and should be redeveloped.

I'm sure most of the reputable dealers wouldn't charge 2 hours to replace a switch under warranty. If they value the relationships with their customers most probably charge as little as they can or nothing at all to maintain that. That certainly isn't fair to them either.

[xc420]

Hi,

I hired a C4 installer to put in some C4 equipment and a GE security system in new construction, which was finished up about 10 months ago. Total was about $13k. Recently, one of the dimmers went dead. The installer is telling me that the replacement dimmer is covered under warranty, but to program it, it would be $75/hour, 2 hour minimum. I told him I would take care of the wiring and that his guys could do the programming remotely -- would probably take about 10 minutes. He told me it would still be $150 minimum, even if the programming were done remotely (he cited the time to do paperwork for the RA, etc...)

My question is: Is it reasonable to expect that in this situation, warranty work should be free, or at least 'actual time' instead of '$150 minimum'?

Thanks.

Sounds like the warranty does no good if you have to pay those ridiculous charges - 2 hours minimum programming to identify a dimmer and possible redo a few light scenes. Something that takes literally ten minutes. Find another dealer, don't give them anymore of your business. For your situation, I wonder if you fire your dealer and use someone else if the warranty will transfer?

Might as well DIY if warranties do you no good.

[RyanE]

I just had my furnace break, which was under warranty. Of course, the part was covered under warranty, but I still had to pay the HVAC company $200 to come and exchange the part. The guy who replaced it is the same guy who put it in during construction.

Sounds a lot like replacing a Control4 part under warranty.

Comparing to car warranties isn't quite right for a couple of reasons, the main one because you typically can drive the car to the dealership, vs. having them have to make a trip out to your house. If your car isn't driveable, the warranty doesn't include towing the car to the dealership, does it?

I can't think of a thing in my house where an on-site visit is included in the warranty of the item purchased.

I'm not saying that there isn't some merit in the argument, but for Control4 to pay labor for warranty replacements, that cost is going to have to be paid somewhere that it isn't right now. You would likely have to pay more up-front for the components.

One thing many dealers are doing is to have a service contract available, which includes these sorts of warranty labor items, as well as some amount of programming, monitoring, etc. on an ongoing basis.

Sorry this doesn't help out the original poster, but it's my 2 cents.

Happy Thanksgiving to those in the USA.

RyanE

[Letran]

Henniae - you can't forget the specific C4 issue here because it's the C4 model that makes it an issue. We're not talking about a TV or stereo you purchase and install yourself.

The problem with the C4 warranty here is that only C4 benefits. If the dealer charges the customer they technically benefit, but they likely have an unhappy customer. If the customer pays, they certainly don't benefit. C4 doesn't have to pay anyone so they win. A major flaw in the business model as far as protecting the customer if you ask me. The dealer should be billing their time back to C4 just like an auto dealership would. After all, who's product is it that fails? The dealer shouldn't suffer and absorb the labour costs but the customer shouldn't have to pay if they are "forced" to have someone come and replace it. C4's warranty policy does not adequately protect the customer and should be redeveloped.

I'm sure most of the reputable dealers wouldn't charge 2 hours to replace a switch under warranty. If they value the relationships with their customers most probably charge as little as they can or nothing at all to maintain that. That certainly isn't fair to them either.

Exactly my point.

I just had my furnace break, which was under warranty. Of course, the part was covered under warranty, but I still had to pay the HVAC company $200 to come and exchange the part. The guy who replaced it is the same guy who put it in during construction.

The main difference I would argue is that you could buy a furnace and install it yourself. You had a choice to do it yourself or not (as per Example A)

Ryan- btw, not to put you in a corner I appreciate your contributions in the forum, specially in your own time. Just having a healthy but VALID discussion.

All I'm saying is if C4's model is to support Dist/Dealer then support the dealer?

Don't say this my business model when we are SELLING, but when it breaks under warranty, when it comes to our DEFECTIVE PRODUCTS we will follow the DIY business model.

Happy Thansgiving Everyone

[tigrzeye]

Full labor and full parts are covered with our security systems for the first 12 months, during normal work day/hours. Weekends are at additional call out charge. After the first year we offer a 1 year service/maintenance agreement. Provides in house inspection and re-certification of the system, and then 100% labor and 50% parts warranty coverage for the next year. Again normal work day/hour coverage. Customer can opt to take the maintenance agreement for 1 year, or year after year.

[ILoveC4]

Any dealer I've worked with that does a full system offers one year warranty, parts and labor. Any problems within the first year cost $0 (unless problem is caused by outside influence of course).

Get a new dealer.

[jayace]

I just had my furnace break, which was under warranty. Of course, the part was covered under warranty, but I still had to pay the HVAC company $200 to come and exchange the part. The guy who replaced it is the same guy who put it in during construction.

Sounds a lot like replacing a Control4 part under warranty.

Comparing to car warranties isn't quite right for a couple of reasons, the main one because you typically can drive the car to the dealership, vs. having them have to make a trip out to your house. If your car isn't driveable, the warranty doesn't include towing the car to the dealership, does it?

I can't think of a thing in my house where an on-site visit is included in the warranty of the item purchased.

I'm not saying that there isn't some merit in the argument, but for Control4 to pay labor for warranty replacements, that cost is going to have to be paid somewhere that it isn't right now. You would likely have to pay more up-front for the components.

One thing many dealers are doing is to have a service contract available, which includes these sorts of warranty labor items, as well as some amount of programming, monitoring, etc. on an ongoing basis.

Sorry this doesn't help out the original poster, but it's my 2 cents.

Happy Thanksgiving to those in the USA.

RyanE

I disagree, a lot of new furnace installs do cover parts and labor for at least a prorated portion of the warranty. And a furnace or fireplace isn't really a DIY project either (for the most part) because of the whole blowing up your house issue for those using gas.

Comparing to new car warranties is valid because the dealer covers the labor to replace the parts IN your car. It isn't about getting your car to the dealer, it's about the labour to repair/replace.

The difference with C4 is that the customer doesn't have the option to DIY, you need the dealer to reinstall, or at least reprogram. The customer has no choice. Under that model the customer deserves to be better protected and C4 doesn't do anything in that regard.

ILoveC4 and tigrzeye are right though, most dealers cover all the work they do for at least a year, parts and labour. If your dealer doesn't, get a new dealer.

[mtech]

Well working for a car dealer

if your car breaks.... then roadside assistance will tow your vehicle to the nearest dealership for repairs and cover the cost of towing

we also just had some repair guys out to repair our under warranty washer

and the parts and labor were covered under their warrant as well

i think C4 should at least reimburse the dealer for some costs to reprogram but maybe like in car warranty they would cover actual time spent

Just my 2 Canadian pennies here

[Letran]

ILoveC4 and tigrzeye are right though, most dealers cover all the work they do for at least a year, parts and labour. If your dealer doesn't, get a new dealer.

That is well and good for:

1. Reputable maybe bigger dealers that cares or could ABSORB that cost (time and labor it is still not reimbursed by the mfg).

2. IF the Dealer is still in business (there are a FEW that closed)

3. IF your CURRENT dealer is the ORIGINAL dealer. (a common scenario, bought your C4 gear from DealerA, crappy job did not work out, hired DealerB paid to install only, 10 mths later within warranty. Will DealerB ABSORB the cost of reinstalling a then defective C4 equipment. It was not his fault. Who pays? Which business model?

The people in China got paid $2/day to make these I can't believe there is no room to support your dealer/end-user.

A. Why would the reputable dealers should be FORCED to ABSORB the cost, at best they only made 40% of the profit from gear sale if that.

B. IF you bought from a dealer that closed. C4 should still stand by their product and your current dealer should be able to SERVICE you HAPPILY. They have to resort to overcharging $150 for a 5 minute job because of lack of mfg support.

C. IF buying new from a dealer could, would, might resolve that end user pay AGAIN for a minimum $150 charge for a warranty repair then why wouldn't I just buy used, the money saved I'll pay the technician.

C4 Warrranty

Dimmer Replacement FREE

Minimum Dealer charge $150 Total out of pocket cost from End User $150.00

New C4 Dimmer $150 installed Total out of pocket cost from End User $150.00

Tell me again what the warranty did for the OP. And this is for a dimmer. What does the numbers look like for a defective HC1000?

If then the C4 warranty is useless. Who saved the cost of warranty? Who paid out? Maybe the dealer if they are conscientious, the end user AGAIN? Certainly not C4.

Believe it or not I really do not have a problem with the $150 minimum charge. The dealers have to eat too but it shouldn't come from the end-user. At least not in C4's business model. At least not in a FAIR business model.

By the way how was the turkey?

[sparky7]

Thanks for all the replies. If I were given the 'keys' to set up the replacement dimmer myself, I would love to do it. I'm more of a DIY person (the sales rep actually promised me the passcodes and s/w when he was selling me the system, but when it came time to power it up -- "Control4 doesn't allow that").

I can understand that an installer shouldn't 'have' to eat the install/program cost for warranty work. And I could understand a 2 hour minimum if they have to bring a truck out. But if it can be done remotely in 10 to 15 minutes by one of their programmers (let me know if my time estimates are off) and are not willing to reduce the fee, then it feels like they know they have me over a barrel and are taking advantage of it.

I expect the wise dealers would find the average needed for warranty work and build it in to their up-front costs. Then when an occasional warranty replacement became necessary, they would be covered. As long as C4's quality remains high, this extra cost should be minimal.

As far as finding a new dealer -- that sounds like good advice (and I'll probably take it). It just irks me that this dealer made his profit off of my job and is still trying to squeeze me for more.

Thanks.

[jayace]

ILoveC4 and tigrzeye are right though' date=' most dealers cover all the work they do for at least a year, parts and labour. If your dealer doesn't, get a new dealer.[/quote']

That is well and good for:

1. Reputable maybe bigger dealers that cares or could ABSORB that cost (time and labor it is still not reimbursed by the mfg).

2. IF the Dealer is still in business (there are a FEW that closed)

3. IF your CURRENT dealer is the ORIGINAL dealer. (a common scenario, bought your C4 gear from DealerA, crappy job did not work out, hired DealerB paid to install only, 10 mths later within warranty. Will DealerB ABSORB the cost of reinstalling a then defective C4 equipment. It was not his fault. Who pays? Which business model?

The people in China got paid $2/day to make these I can't believe there is no room to support your dealer/end-user.

A. Why would the reputable dealers should be FORCED to ABSORB the cost, at best they only made 40% of the profit from gear sale if that.

B. IF you bought from a dealer that closed. C4 should still stand by their product and your current dealer should be able to SERVICE you HAPPILY. They have to resort to overcharging $150 for a 5 minute job because of lack of mfg support.

C. IF buying new from a dealer could, would, might resolve that end user pay AGAIN for a minimum $150 charge for a warranty repair then why wouldn't I just buy used, the money saved I'll pay the technician.

C4 Warrranty

Dimmer Replacement FREE

Minimum Dealer charge $150 Total out of pocket cost from End User $150.00

New C4 Dimmer $150 installed Total out of pocket cost from End User $150.00

Tell me again what the warranty did for the OP. And this is for a dimmer. What does the numbers look like for a defective HC1000?

If then the C4 warranty is useless. Who saved the cost of warranty? Who paid out? Maybe the dealer if they are conscientious, the end user AGAIN? Certainly not C4.

Believe it or not I really do not have a problem with the $150 minimum charge. The dealers have to eat too but it shouldn't come from the end-user. At least not in C4's business model. At least not in a FAIR business model.

By the way how was the turkey?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think it's ok, the rest of my post(s) makes that pretty clear. Just saying for the OP that for his problem, his dealer is probably the exception as most have a warranty policy of their own that should have protected him.

I still think C4 is missing the mark here and the customer should be better protected. For the amount of warranty claims they would have to pay out, I really don't believe there would be that much, if any, increase on the front end product costs. I doubt C4 is operating on that thin of a margin. A better warranty, if marketed right, could probably lead to increased sales.

[thinslis]

You should be able to RMA the dimmer back to C4 directly and do physical replacement yourself (not rocket sience) if you so choose. Then C4 should either pay for someone to discover it for you or provide some type of RMA code that you can discover it on your own.

If a part goes bad in my computer I send them the part and they send it back to me. If I know how to install it then I can do it on my own... if I can't then I pay someone to do it.

If a part goes bad on my Harley, I send it in to them, they send the part back to me....

It shouldn't cost extra $$ to replace a defective part.

[ILoveC4]

^ call Control4 and let me know how that goes. I've tried...didn't go so well.

[jayace]

^ call Control4 and let me know how that goes. I've tried...didn't go so well.

I can guarantee they won't answer an email. I've tried that

[ILoveC4]

They can't have us idiot end users verifying a problem, the problem has to be verified and validated by a "certified professional". Even then, you can't RMA it, must be a dealer. They sure don't make it very easy to take advantage of the warranty.

[thinslis]

I sure hope I don't come to regret buying this stuff....

[jayace]

They can't have us idiot end users verifying a problem, the problem has to be verified and validated by a "certified professional". Even then, you can't RMA it, must be a dealer. They sure don't make it very easy to take advantage of the warranty.

I should clarify that mine wasn't a technical question. Was to clarify info from a dealer I didn't think was accurate.

I sure hope I don't come to regret buying this stuff....

I personally love the product and definitely don't regret buying it, wish I could afford more but my wife wants the family to go to Hawaii. :/ Just seems that the customer isn't always the #1 priority though, which to me is just wrong.

[Joe Moore]

C4 warranty is similar to any electronic manufacturer warranty. If you buy a new Sony TV and it goes bad, Sony will fix it or give you a new one under their warranty, but they don't cover taking the TV off the wall, then remounting it and calibrating it. The same rule applies for a reciever, projector, theater screen, in ceiling speakers, etc. For that matter the same goes with anything you buy at any of the big box stores, unless they install it. The warranty on the install should be covered by the Installation company.

Every A/V company I have worked for covers installs for 1 year from the date of installation, some also offered extended warranty plans. It all depends on what they contracted to do.

Just my 2 cents worth.