Buyer Beware

[diamonddesign]

Dan,

I would edit your post immediately to remove content in the middle that Ryan referenced. Please don't take that suggestion lightly.

Also, if you purchased the USPS postage online via Click N Ship, you can login to the account, view history and it will show all tracking and shipping information ever on that account. We use USPS to overseas sometimes and I've had to do that myself on occasion. Even when you don't purchase tracking, it will be trackabel if its out of country like this.

[ILoveC4]

Dan,

I would edit your post immediately to remove content in the middle that Ryan referenced. Please don't take that suggestion lightly.

Also, if you purchased the USPS postage online via Click N Ship, you can login to the account, view history and it will show all tracking and shipping information ever on that account. We use USPS to overseas sometimes and I've had to do that myself on occasion. Even when you don't purchase tracking, it will be trackabel if its out of country like this.

I edited my post...thanks!

I didn't buy the postage online, I shipped it from the post office on the corner of 2100 South and Redwood Road in SLC.

[Letran]

You know there's all kinds of problems with the post up there now. Winnipeg and Montreal have postal strikes at present.

Also, I only ship USPS tracked up to CA. In fact it's preferred shipping method for goods coming from US do to customs. UPS for instance charges the recipient a customs handling fee I believe.

The postal rolling interruption not a full strike did not start until last week Friday night, even then, Toronto has not been affected limited to one city at a time

The shipment reviewing my email would have been sent around April 29 which is about 5 weeks by this time.

Normal ship time is 4-7 days at the most.

[ILoveC4]

Normal ship time is 4-7 days at the most.

I'm not going to argue with you, but that just simply is NOT true.

[Letran]

Normal ship time is 4-7 days at the most.

I'm not going to argue with you' date=' but that just simply is NOT true.[/quote']

I'm not arguing Dan. Let us say 1-2 weeks max

UPS & fedex takes about 4-5 days

USPS is usually a couple more day longer at least from my experience. 4-5 weeks though would be stretching it.

Note: YOUR package from UTAH to TORONTO arrived in 7 business days

Detailed tracking results from the incomplete shipment you sent that had a tracking number.

Delivered Abroad, March 15, 2011, 5:02 pm, CANADA

At Foreign Delivery Unit, March 15, 2011, 8:31 am, CANADA

Out of Foreign Customs, March 14, 2011, 2:00 pm, CANADA

Into Foreign Customs, March 14, 2011, 8:41 am, CANADA

Arrived Abroad, March 14, 2011, 8:41 am, CANADA

International Dispatch, March 09, 2011, 10:06 pm, ISC CHICAGO IL (USPS)

Arrival

Acceptance, March 07, 2011, 12:27 pm, SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84199

[Tokead]

I can empathize with both.

I live in Canada too, and I've had parcels from the US take months (7-8 weeks) to arrive. I'm sure that it was lost in Winnipeg, which seems to be where US parcels land on arrival in Canada - at least for the West Coast. I know that Canada Post is efficent, barring strikes, and the USPS seems to be better, especially with having Saturday delivery. But put the two of them together and occassionally its the blind leading the blind. I've also had replacement parcels arrive before the intial shipment did: that's a bugger to return if you paid duties!

As a result of my experiences, and the cost of brokerage fees and duty, I've quit shipping direct. I'm fortunate enough to live 1/4 mile from a border crossing and a town with numerous parcel forwarding companies so I now have everything sent there. Shipments are a lot quicker. Customs doesn't always charge you. Life is less stressful.

I know that it's not an option for all, but if you can, consider crossing the line to pick up your parcels. Gas is cheaper too:)

I hope that the mail comes through for you, and you get to enjoy your purchases and extras

[PixelPerfect]

I live in Alaska, and its very common to see an item take 4-6 weeks. I always pay for expited shipping, which still takes up 6-8 days.

[Letran]

Dan, thanks for your long post. But if you would have returned my email and quickly noting to let me know you wanted to wait a little longer to resend I would have arranged something. I've always been MORE than reasonable with you. But no replies at weeks at a time have left me wondering.

Your last email said "By the end of the week if you don't have it, I'll send another one then I'm done"I waited until the END of the MONTH reminding you again that I still do not have it and to please give me a timeline that I can reschedule the installers to come back. No reply.

I'm sharing this publicly because I have no idea what might be getting sent around via PM/Email and I want people to know what has really happened here.

I have not PM/Emailed anyone in regards to this matter. But I'm glad the thought of it prompted you to reply. As a matter of fact, if you review my posts I even tried very hard NOT to hint that it was you.

[RyanE]

He said / She said isn't that entertaining.

Take it back offline, please.

RyanE

[ILoveC4]

He said / She said isn't that entertaining.

Take it back offline, please.

RyanE

Agreed. Thank you.

[Letran]

Out of respect for Ryan's request I've kept it OFFLINE for over a month now

no response, no email, no package from the seller

Thank you for the members that have emailed me their support, as promise I will keep everybody posted as soon as I get my PAID package

Okay, I feel I better step in a clear the air here. I am the person that Letran is talking about. Thus far has Letran got the short end of the stick on this deal? Without a doubt. Is the situation going to be made right? Absolutely. Is the position we're in all my fault? NO. Here's the scoop. The full, real story, just so all you understand. I'm sharing this publicly because I have no idea what might be getting sent around via PM/Email and I want people to know what has really happened here. I don't have exact dates and can look through my emails, but I have approximate dates.

Letran has emailed me LOTS of times, trying to get gear. Control4 gear, Card Access gear, Snap A/V gear, all sorts of stuff. As you all know (I assume), I don't do this for a living and can't get him all this stuff. I am a Card Access dealer, and I can get him Card Access gear. For everything else, I referred him to a dealer friend of mine in Phoenix. This dealer had always taken great care of people I referred to him, but lately (the past 6 months or so...I've stopped referring him) he has been dropping the ball. I know he had some back issues and he lost a few employees, I think he has just gotten so busy that taking care of what is in his face is hard enough, much less the phone/email stuff. I'm not making excuses for him, just stating what I feel to be fact. As I mentioned, I have quit referring people to him. At any rate, Letran and I exchanged countless emails with him asking about pricing for different products, and different quantities/configurations, etc... He called me on the phone several times to discuss, and this was a long process. I can't even tell you how long. In the end, he wanted some Card Access gear from me, and some other gear from the dealer in Phoenix (not a poster here BTW. He wanted some baluns, some rack mount kits, an iPad license, and some other misc. stuff). I told Letran what my costs were, the dealer told him what his costs were, and Letran told me he would mail a check. This was around the holidays. After about 3-4 weeks I hadn't received anything, so I emailed him asking if he sent it because I wanted to make sure it wasn't lost in the mail. He said that his sister/secretary/someone forgot to send it when the went on Holiday, and that he was mailing. Sometime later (about a week?) I received his Canadian check in the mail. It took me a few days to get it to the bank (got it at the end of the week), and with it being an international check my bank held it for 10 or 12 days...I don't remember for sure. About 5% fell off due to exchange rate if I recall....no big deal. So, after his check cleared I made payment to the dealer in AZ, and sent a copy of that receipt off to Letran. I also referred Letran to the dealer in AZ for follow up (I'd already put them in touch) and moved on. I ordered his Card Access gear. He wanted LINE POWERED motion detectors, and Card Access was out of the notched battery doors they include with the motions. I asked him if he wanted to wait for them to get in stock, and he said yes. That took about 2 weeks. Now, I should note, Letran sent some extra money. He said he sent some extra because he may want to buy something else, and he wanted a little extra to be left behind for me as a thank you/donation to C4DIY. So there was a little extra cash here that was his, and the product he wanted was undetermined. I let him know the Card Access parts were in, and he emailed me asking about hard disk drives...if I could get him some. I was actually getting ready to order some from NewEgg for myself, so he asked me to get him one or two as well (I don't recall how many...I think 2?). That was what he was using the "extra money" for. No problem. I ordered the drives, which all said and done added about a week. He then asked me to put some *personal files* I have to said drive. It was an internal drive, and I didn't have a handy USB enclosure but figured it would be nice to have one, so I ordered one of those. That added a few days. Then I started the process of copying a few hundred *personal files* on to the hard drive. This was all going over my network as it was coming from my NAS, so I would stream 20 or so each night. I told him, this is going to take a while...do you want to wait? Again...he says "yes...no problem. Thank you". Now, I travel a fair amount, and so this process took some time as I am gone about 1/2 the time and this isn't a priority. So I get the drive(s?) all ready to go, and package the whole lot up in one box. I then had to leave on an unexpected trip and had the package in my office (took it in to weigh and calculate postage), and forgot it. I remembered on the plane, and asked my assistant to send it for me. She dropped the ball. When I got back in town I shipped, and he received it just fine. There was one problem though...I didn't realize he had ALSO asked for an additional card access product, the phone and doorbell event package. He called/emailed me asking about this. I COMPLETELY missed the fact that he even wanted this...I don't know how, but I did...it was my fault. I was out of town when this happened, and to be honest getting this and shipping it out slipped my mind for a little while. It is worth noting that since I didn't realize he wanted this, I didn't factor the cost in, so with everything done so far I've spent a bunch of my time, and the "extra money" is about $15...about 10% the cost of the Card Access piece that I owe him (admittedly, like I said he asked for it and I missed it. My mistake, my cost, not mad at anyone except myself). So, I'm annoyed. I'm out of town, and it slips to the back of my mind. Then, unexpectedly my grandmother dies, during an already very hectic time, and it had me busy with the family for about a week. Then, the day after my grandmothers funeral my wife goes in for surgery. Bedridden for 3 weeks. I work 50+ hours per week (and don't have anyone to "full in for me" when I'm not around...things just pile up), run two online businesses, have 3 kids under age 3 (oldest almost 4) and have a house/yard to take care of. My wife is a full time job for me, plus everything else, plus now I'm doing everything SHE does (which I realized more than ever, is a LOT). Admittedly, going to Card Access and buying this gear to send to Letran is nearly the last thing on my mind. The timing of all this could not be worse. So, Letran reminds me. I told him (I remember the conversation on the phone) "Sorry about these delays, I will pick it up next Monday and ship it out on Tuesday". That's what I did. Problem, in an attempt to keep the cost down, I shipped it via USPS. No insurance, no tracking number. I didn't keep the "customs" number...I through it away on my way out the post office with the receipt. This was dumb move on my part...I'll admit that. So, Letran still hasn't received a product that I ate the cost on (again, not mad at anyone but myself) and I'll be damned if I am going to buy another one (at my expense) and ship it to him until I am DAMN certain that thing isn't going to arrive. We're probably to that point now, I need to go back and look over the dates. With one of my online businesses I ship a lot of smaller, pad packaged envelopes USPS to Canada and it is not uncommon for it to take 3 weeks...one time recently it took almost 7! I shipped a new product to the customer (after they didn't receive their package after 3 weeks) and they received it, then a week later the original package showed up!

This whole thing has been a huge pain in the ass, and cost me a lot of time and money. Letran is not going to get slighted. I have transacted business with DOZENS of members on this forum, and I would be blown away if anyone (other than Letran) said anything other than positive things about our dealings. I'm not a cheat, I'm not "in trouble" and I'm not ripping anybody off. A lot of the initial delay was due to his request with the hard drives and copying data (please don't lecture me on doing that...please), and these recent delays are mine. I explained why up above.

Oh yeah, it's also worth noting that the dealer in Phoenix totally dropped the ball and didn't send him anything! It took us (me) a lot of time and energy bugging him, just to find out he hadn't done it. He supposedly mistaked him for another customer in Canada, and gave us several tracking numbers for packages that were delivered to other people! Each time, it took him a few days to respond. Letran got his money back from that dealer, and I felt badly about it taking so long for him to end up with nothing. But that was completely out of my hands.

SO, here's what it comes down to. I wasn't selling anything Letran wanted to buy, he reached out to me. Normally I wouldn't have done this (I get emails like this all the time and I'm sure people here will agree with the fact that I have told them no a lot of times), but for some reason I wanted to help him out...he was in Canada, had several bad experience with several bad integrators and was having a hard time getting gear. So, there you have it. That's the real story. I'll open my wallet and buy him ANOTHER Phone and Doorbell event package at my cost, ship it at my cost, and make sure to NEVER help anyone in a similar situation again.

All you guys that email me from here and my website asking for help, referrals, suggestions, etc...this is the reason why I am not responding. I try to help people because I enjoy and I also want help from time to time and it bites me in the ass. If you need help you can try emailing me, but no guarantees.

Now, I just spent 20 minutes of valuable typing all that and have to get back to work. Sorry if it rambles, has typos and grammatical errors, etc... I have not proof read it, and probably won't see the post for several days. I have a huge meeting in Chicago on Wednesday and am behind in my preparations.

Good day to you all.

[Letran]

I've kept it OFFLINE for over a TWO months now

STILL no response, no email, no package from the seller (ILoveC4).

not even a "I PULLED ONE ON YOU, CONSIDER YOURSELF OFFICIALLY RIPPED OFF. YOU CAN STOP WAITING NOW"

I will keep everybody posted as soon as I get my PAID package

[dogdvr]

I do hope that you and Dan, (Ilovec4) can get this worked out.

Sorry its has been such a struggle.

Brent

[Letran]

STILL no response, no email, no package from the seller (ILoveC4).

I've kept it OFFLINE for over a THREE months now. THREE LONG MONTHS (offline) over and above the months that he kept me waiting

at this point I'll even take " IM SORRY, I SCREWED UP AND I CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY FOR MY MISTAKE"

I will keep everybody posted as soon as I get my PAID package

I do hope that you and Dan, (Ilovec4) can get this worked out.

Sorry its has been such a struggle.

Brent

Thanks for the support Brent

[Ramorous]

I was sceptical of buying something off this forum, but Paypal does protect you in some ways. When doing some transactions you have 45 days after to raise a complaint with them for a refund. I purchased a thermostat a few weeks ago and it arrived just fine yesterday and got installed without a hitch. I thanked the seller and couldn't have had a big problem. Shipped from Salt Lake City and arrived in Ottawa (Canada) just 2-1/2 weeks later.

I do recommend if you ship from either Canada or US and use USPS, get the tracking code, both Canada Post and USPS share international tracking. Once my package got to Canada (in Montreal) there were more details about the shipment by going through Canada Post with the USPS tracking number, such as duty clearance and all the other info they provide so I knew what was happening with my shipment.

[chesterwilson]

I always use paypal and fund it from my Amex it protects me from unscrupulous transactions.

[ILoveC4]

I'm not going to get another argument with Letran. I shipped the product.

Furthermore, I have dozens of people on this forum I've sold stuff to (some as recent as last week: http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=9724) and NOBODY has ever complained except Letran.

Letran, please don't ask me for a reply here because I won't provide one. I've stayed out of this thread, and I'm going to get back out again after this.

[GoGo Delicious]

Dan if you say,

. . . I shipped the product.

What date did you ship it?

Letran, you should follow up with the USPS. Ask them if it was shipped on the date Dan has said it was shipped on. If the USPS says it was shipped then tell them you never received it and that they, the USPS, needs to open an INVESTIGATION.

If they say it shows it was never shipped get a letter from USPS stating that it was never shipped and you can do one or all of the following.

1) Take it to the Post Master and tell them you were a victim of fraud. Tell them what happened and they can open and investigation. Also you will want to fill out the following USPS Form.

2) Take it to your local police department and tell them what happened. They can open a case and get the USPS and the local police where the seller lived involved.

3) Take all documentation to your bank and see what they can do. In the case of fraud they can go back and return the check, not as NSF or anything else, but as fraud.

Those are your only options at this point. Before you do anything you need to write down in DETAIL the facts of what happened in a chronological order so you have something to give to the authorities.

You do have some recourse but you wont get that from this forum. You need to do what I suggested above in order to have this issue resolved.

[Letran]

I'm not going to get another argument with Letran. I shipped the product.

Furthermore, I have dozens of people on this forum I've sold stuff to (some as recent as last week: http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=9724) and NOBODY has ever complained except Letran.

Letran, please don't ask me for a reply here because I won't provide one. I've stayed out of this thread, and I'm going to get back out again after this.

Dan - Your post on Jun-06-2011 11:47 AM #21 on this thread YOU acknowledge that I am shorted on our transaction.

"I am the person that Letran is talking about. Thus far has Letran got the short end of the stick on this deal? Without a doubt. Is the situation going to be made right? Absolutely."

Along with a promise that you will right the situation. No attempts, still no package

Dan - you CAN'T reply because you LIED about shipping the package. You are staying out of this thread because you are staying out of your RESPONSIBILITY

Dan - I am NOT complaining about a damaged package. I bought a product. I paid YOU. YOU lie about shipping the product. YOU cannot provide ANY proof that it was ever shipped. Here I am without any recourse. Failed Trust. Who would think that anyone would sacrifice their INTEGRITY for a few bucks?

[Letran]

I was sceptical of buying something off this forum, but Paypal does protect you in some ways. When doing some transactions you have 45 days after to raise a complaint with them for a refund. I purchased a thermostat a few weeks ago and it arrived just fine yesterday and got installed without a hitch. I thanked the seller and couldn't have had a big problem. Shipped from Salt Lake City and arrived in Ottawa (Canada) just 2-1/2 weeks later.

I do recommend if you ship from either Canada or US and use USPS, get the tracking code, both Canada Post and USPS share international tracking. Once my package got to Canada (in Montreal) there were more details about the shipment by going through Canada Post with the USPS tracking number, such as duty clearance and all the other info they provide so I knew what was happening with my shipment.

Ramorous, I have transacted with numerous people in this forum as a buyer and seller. All of my other transactions have been smooth and conducted with integrity. Please do not let the bad apples stop you from conducting business with the majority that is good and honest.

He has shipped me two packaqes with tracking nos without incident. There was a product missing in the second package. He acknowledge that he forgot to order this and will send it separately. I've been waiting for it ever since. The receipt, the transaction or tracking number mysteriously cannot be obtained.

Thanks for your comments, appreciate your support.

[Letran]

I always use paypal and fund it from my Amex it protects me from unscrupulous transactions.

Learned my lesson Chester, Mailed a $2000 company cheque. I made sure that it was cashed and good before any product was sent. I did not ask for a discount and I even included a donation to his website as a sign of good faith. There was a product that he did not realize was part of my order. He has promised to send it but without receipt, proof, tracking no or insurance. The package has disappeared in thin air.

A conscientious seller will do everything to track that package Go to the shipping depot, trace the transaction.and make sure that the buyer gets the package or a replacement.

Instead... "I shipped it just wait it wll get there."

Seven months later still waiting. No product and still out of the money that I PAID for. Do you think I've been RIPPED off?

[Letran]

Dan if you say,

. . . I shipped the product.

What date did you ship it?

Letran, you should follow up with the USPS. Ask them if it was shipped on the date Dan has said it was shipped on. If the USPS says it was shipped then tell them you never received it and that they, the USPS, needs to open an INVESTIGATION.

If they say it shows it was never shipped get a letter from USPS stating that it was never shipped and you can do one or all of the following.

1) Take it to the Post Master and tell them you were a victim of fraud. Tell them what happened and they can open and investigation. Also you will want to fill out the following USPS Form.

2) Take it to your local police department and tell them what happened. They can open a case and get the USPS and the local police where the seller lived involved.

3) Take all documentation to your bank and see what they can do. In the case of fraud they can go back and return the check, not as NSF or anything else, but as fraud.

Those are your only options at this point. Before you do anything you need to write down in DETAIL the facts of what happened in a chronological order so you have something to give to the authorities.

You do have some recourse but you wont get that from this forum. You need to do what I suggested above in order to have this issue resolved.

Thank you GoGo. I've always valued your feedback. The problem is that I have continually asked for some sort of tracking number or receipt so I could track it with the shipping company. But Dan as he explained in qoutations below...

(Dan) "in an attempt to keep the cost down, I shipped it via USPS. No insurance, no tracking number. I didn't keep the "customs" number...I through it away on my way out the post office with the receipt."

Prior to this, he has provided me with tracking numbers for 2 other packages that I received without problems. The 3rd one was shipped WITHOUT a tracking number. Never received or can Dan prove that he ever sent it.

I can't call USPS without any details coming from the seller.

I did call USPS and discovered that all Canadian shipments (Intl) is provided wih a tracking number WITHOUT additional cost.

Do you think If a package was sent months ago that I would have received something by now? Do you believe that a package was actually mailed? Conveniently throw away the receipt?

[ILoveC4]

Letran, the packages were all shipped the same way, were they not? Via USPS with a CUSTOMS number...

Like I said, I'm done with this thread. Say what you will, but I know what's gone on, what I've sent and what you asked for. I haven't heard from you in months.

Go ahead and continue your attempts to trash my name...with this next comment I'm out of this thread. Maybe we need a thread titled "Seller Beware".

[Letran]

Letran, the packages were all shipped the same way, were they not? Via USPS with a CUSTOMS number...

Like I said, I'm done with this thread. Say what you will, but I know what's gone on, what I've sent and what you asked for. I haven't heard from you in months.

Go ahead and continue your attempts to trash my name...with this next comment I'm out of this thread. Maybe we need a thread titled "Seller Beware".

Dan - This is SIMPLE. If that is the case why didn't you track the package or the very least give me details that I can track it myself.

Dan - you haven't heard from ME!!! It is because of you not responding to my emails. And not answering my calls for two months. Now you say you haven't heard from me. Go LIE and dig yourself a hole.

Dan - This is not complicated. please start that thread. Give me a credible explanation why you cannot prove that you sent a package. Why you never gave me a tracking number fo the third package. Why I still don't have my package. Why you said you will right the situation. Why after three months of giving you time to correct this it is still WRONG.

Why??? I'll tell you why. Because you know that you LIED. You do not want to pay for your mistake. You STOLE my money. And...

You are not even MAN enough to admit it.

YOU are one PATHETIC individual

[RyanE]

Guys, take it offline. And KEEP IT THERE.

There's no way for anyone on this forum to:

1) Know who is at fault

2) Address the issue

3) Help clear this up

And it's about as entertaining as watching two teenagers argue over who should really be unloading the dishwasher.

If you've got a beef, take it to court.

Any more posts on this subject and I'm going to ask CytexOne to nuke the thread from space, and ban the participants.

I may ask them to nuke the thread from space anyway.

RyanE