ILoveC4 Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 So what matrix amps are you using for 5.1 (or whatever)? When I see amps like the C4 they appear to be stereo. Or do you not use a matrix and put a regular AVR in your rack? And what about subwoofer - aren't subwoofers normally powered at the speaker so that you need a coax connection back to the subwoofer? [mention=124065]ILoveC4[/mention]- did you drop a zero on your matrix price or did you really pay $600 for it? The other issue to make this all work is the cabling. There are parts of my house where I couldn't easily run ethernet cable so I use MoCA or wifi for networking, but that wouldn't work for video I guess.I ran coax back to the rack for the subwoofer locations (I have two). The upper level of my house was retrofit, the basement I finished myself. I have 16 zones of Control4 stereo audio through their amps. Then I have video zones that play through an AVR or through the speakers on the TV. I could play the TV audio through the audio distribution in stereo, but never really saw the point. And no, I didn’t drop a 0. I paid under $600 for my current matrix switch. It’s a Shinybow component video matrix that has been (and remains to be) flawless. It’s your free if you pay the cost of shipping. My new Just Add Power setup was many times over more than that, but I still feel great about the investment. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 3 hours ago, zaphod said: @ILoveC4 The other issue to make this all work is the cabling. There are parts of my house where I couldn't easily run ethernet cable so I use MoCA or wifi for networking, but that wouldn't work for video I guess. While I doubt they'd recommend it, this WOULD be possible with JAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 I do actually use MoCA to stream video to a couple of my SageTV extenders which can use bitrates of as much as 19.2Mbps for HD OTA MPEG-2 files. When I tested it years ago I was able to maintain transfer speeds of about 50Mbps as measured by file transfers in Win7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 I don't want to sidetrack this thread any more than I already have. Is there a thread that discusses the pros and cons of JAP vs other matrix switches, etc? I did a quick search but didn't find anything too recent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic30101 Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 I think the OP question has been answered and he went with JAP so might as well run with it... biggest thing is as long as your managed switch is big enough you have more flexibility at a slightly higher cost, though there is a different design approach compared to c4 matrices that do audio downmixing for analog sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 How much can you expect to pay for a JAP system. It looks like the Tx and Rx units are roughly $1k apiece - is that right (this is for the 3G units, I don't know that it makes sense to save a few hundred for a 2G unit - but then it drops to $600 if you want to do that). Then you will need a managed switch - a Cisco SG300-28 looks like it will cost you about $200-300. Is there anything else you will need to purchase? Any licensing or programming? Would you still put a C4 controller in your end-point rooms or do you not need them locally as you can either control with HDMI-CEC, IP or IR sent over the JAP connection? Does the JAP connection also carry a plain-vanilla IP network for controlling local devices like a TV and AVR (if you have one locally) or do you need additional ethernet drop(s) for that? What about audio distribution - would you just use the JAP HDMI connection or would you use another connection for audio, perhaps with an additional zone? What are the advantages of JAP vs traditional Matrix switch like a Leaf or whatever? I guess one disadvantage is a bit of a delay? Advantage is requirement for fewer network drops? And you can custom size it for a 6x8, 8x10, 10x4 or whatever rather than traditional 6x6, 8x8, etc. Bit-path seems similar to JAP - but it is 1/10 the price as you can get a Monoprice Tx/Rx pair for $80. What's the catch here? I see bad reviews on the Monoprice site but that seems to be with people not using separate managed network switches. Are there AVRs that are built for systems like this? Traditional high end AVRs have a ton of HDMI inputs - you don't need that so it is kind of a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic30101 Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 6 hours ago, zaphod said: Bit-path seems similar to JAP - but it is 1/10 the price as you can get a Monoprice Tx/Rx pair for $80. What's the catch here? I see bad reviews on the Monoprice site but that seems to be with people not using separate managed network switches. Bitpath is more of a DA splitter than a switching solution, horrible latency, no 4k, many many bad reviews on reliability 6 hours ago, zaphod said: Are there AVRs that are built for systems like this? Traditional high end AVRs have a ton of HDMI inputs - you don't need that so it is kind of a waste. not particularly except for ones that have HDbaseT outputs to remote displays since you might have the AVR in the rack then have to send the video out to a tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 1 hour ago, zaphod said: I do actually use MoCA to stream video to a couple of my SageTV extenders which can use bitrates of as much as 19.2Mbps for HD OTA MPEG-2 files. When I tested it years ago I was able to maintain transfer speeds of about 50Mbps as measured by file transfers in Win7. I promise I don’t work for VS but if the delay is no issue to you - VS net play does work on MoCa so if that’s your cabling you can use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic30101 Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 40 minutes ago, zaphod said: What are the advantages of JAP vs traditional Matrix switch like a Leaf or whatever? I guess one disadvantage is a bit of a delay? Advantage is requirement for fewer network drops? And you can custom size it for a 6x8, 8x10, 10x4 or whatever rather than traditional 6x6, 8x8, etc. the delay with a 3G system is negligible but yes the flexibility is the uptick 48 minutes ago, zaphod said: Would you still put a C4 controller in your end-point rooms or do you not need them locally as you can either control with HDMI-CEC, IP or IR sent over the JAP connection? Does the JAP connection also carry a plain-vanilla IP network for controlling local devices like a TV and AVR (if you have one locally) or do you need additional ethernet drop(s) for that? What about audio distribution - would you just use the JAP HDMI connection or would you use another connection for audio, perhaps with an additional zone? you should have a local controller especially if you want on screen navigator/zigbee in the area. not necessarily needed as you can use built in serial of the JAP RX if that one has it. it doesnt carry IR or local LAN. I homerun audio back to the rack for TV audio out for zone speakers typically 51 minutes ago, zaphod said: How much can you expect to pay for a JAP system. It looks like the Tx and Rx units are roughly $1k apiece - is that right (this is for the 3G units, I don't know that it makes sense to save a few hundred for a 2G unit - but then it drops to $600 if you want to do that). Then you will need a managed switch - a Cisco SG300-28 looks like it will cost you about $200-300. Is there anything else you will need to purchase? Any licensing or programming? i havent crunched the #s lately but pricing is listed online for TXs and RXs and I set up the cisco switch and JAP units so yes, expect to pay a bit for commissioning as it is time for someone to configure not including adding it in c4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 On 23/11/2017 at 1:47 AM, zaphod said: Has anyone done a write-up on the pros and cons of centralized sources vs distributed sources? I have never understood why having it centralized with a matrix switch is so much better, maybe I am missing something. I think you will find this has been debated around here on and off for years. I guess there is not a right or wrong answer, suffice to say if I ever went totally centralised again I'd go JAP or Videostorm for sure. So as of now, I have a "hybrid" set up. Trouble is options where I live are limited and prices (with third party distributors added) get high. Neither are something you can buy off Amazon and plug and play I am currently using the two built in HDCP 2.2 switches within two compatible Marantz 4K HDR receivers... they are 6x2 each. So I route everything 1080p thru the two receivers. I'd be in trouble with 3 or more zones but... So I "distribute" into the other 3rd and 4th rooms.. The control4 marantz drivers seem to keep track of what is going on which is kinda cool but there is of course no "zone block" in the Marantz. So Currently I am just routing 1080p signals thru the receivers and using separate 4K sources direct to each TV (and audio out into the receiver) in each room. Without zone block as you know you can't mix 1080p and 4k into the one matrix (unless it has this capability like the C4/Leafs) as the 4K gets dumbed down to the lowest signal.. Not ideal I know but it works fine for my two viewing zones where we spend 95% of our viewing time.. As more and more of my sources get upgraded to 4K and there are no more 1080p sources, I will be taking a fresh look at routing everything 4K thru the receivers (they are supposed to be capable but I have yet to test this but) however I will then run into distance problems (they are around 48 meters apart) and I've yet to see reviews or availability on quality 4KHDR Atmos HDMI/HDCP 2.2 capable Cat6 baluns over that distance.. they are almost certainly coming (Does altona have them?) but haven't seen users post their experiences... Of course you then run into issues like the fact that even though all sources might be 4K they won't all be 4K HDR 4.4.4... and what type of "HDR"..(The new Apple TV is not 4.4.4 for example) which means the inbuilt Marantz switch will dumb down to the lowest 4K right? So there are always compromises with HDMI/HDCP 2.2 like I have said (ha) unless you splash out on top quality gear dedicated to handle the intricacies of it all. AFAIK the latest versions of JAP/Videostorm does this and 4.4.4 right?(not totally sure about whether or not they handle 4.4.4 bandwidth..been a while since I looked at this) ...but with no actual hardware "switching" going on within the matrix chip (the switching is done via a network switch), so no need for Zone block is my understanding ? I don't think even the C4 4K Matrix does 4.4.4? Could be wrong on the intricate detail here so please don't shoot me down as this stuff gets complicated real fast.... Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 On 24/11/2017 at 6:36 AM, zaphod said: I don't want to sidetrack this thread any more than I already have. Is there a thread that discusses the pros and cons of JAP vs other matrix switches, etc? I did a quick search but didn't find anything too recent. There have been threads on this for sure. I totally remember them. Maybe not recent? Wish there was a detailed table comparing the three major options C4/Leaf vs JAP vs Videostorm with partic reference to max video 4.4.4/bandwidth capabilities and Audio capabilities.. dolby Atmos vs the other major audio formats etc.. And balun choices and distance capabilities if the matrix is chosen.. Cheers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 https://www.cnet.com/news/hdr10-vs-dolby-vision-vs-hlg-how-do-hdr-formats-compare/ see what I mean re it gets complicated real fast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 I’ve got some clean up to do, but I have all the rack side work done (other than putting the cables between the equipment and the transmitters). Hope to get the rest done this weekend and fire it up. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 This is a bit OT, but on your AVR why is one of the analog RCA jacks black when the rest of them are red? Did you have to get this replaced? And one question regarding speaker wiring - I grew up in the 70s in the days of analog sound systems and for a while read some audiophile magazines. Back then they used to swear by having big fat speaker cables - I remember something called sound hose that was as thick as a garden hose. When running speaker wiring through your house fairly small gauge wire is normally used, as can be seen in your setup above. If you have a 100' run shouldn't you be using like AWG 10 cable? Your speaker wiring looks like it is about AWG 18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 What are you referring to with the analog jacks? They all look the same to me, and none of them have been replaced. For distributed audio I ran either 16 or 18 gauge wire. Many runs are longer than that, but they all work and sound great. My theater is right across the hall and so the runs to that room are very short. The system sounds fantastic in my opinion (and all my guests). I’m not sending huge amounts of power over those cables. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 I see what you’re talking about with the second one being black. I don’t know why that is...let me check. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 I just looked up pics of the receiver online. That one that is black is an input from a subwoofer. That's why it's black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, ILoveC4 said: I just looked up pics of the receiver online. That one that is black is an input from a subwoofer. That's why it's black. That whole set will either be 7.1 (multichannel) INPUT or 7.1 pre-outs - they're not the analogue inputs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 That whole set will either be 7.1 (multichannel) INPUT or 7.1 pre-outs - they're not the analogue inputs.You’re right...it’s a 7.1 input. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Higher gauge speaker wire is wasted if you don't have speakers to match. we run 14 usually, 16 as a cost saver option (to the client that is), but 18 would work just fine (as we guarantee/take responsibility for the runs we don't normally run it just in case). If you're investing into a TRUE premium amp and speakers (meaning you're likely not running standard consumer brands, including their 'premium/high-end' amps) it can affect the quality, but for your 'average' (including better/premium versions) inwall/inceilings......You can argue that it's better easily, but if you can argue the higher cost (both cable and extra time due to it being unwieldy) is another matter. Unless you're a true 'audiophile' (and, not meaning to insult anyone, is something you yourself can't/shouldn't be the judge of, too many people call themselves that but aren't) or are investing into Theatre setups where you're video equipment includes projectors deep into 5 digits....I don't suggest needing 10 gauge speaker wire - because I wouldn't suggest a setup that would make use of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, ILoveC4 said: You’re right...it’s a 7.1 input. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I should clarify that I meant they aren't STEREO line-level/analogue inputs - as technically they're very much analogue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Thanks folks - the print is too small to read so I thought that the red/white RCA plugs were for analog stereo inputs as would often have many rows of these on an AVR. @Cyknight- Thanks for the info on speaker wires - that makes sense to me for ceiling speakers. Since I have already sidetracked this thread a couple of times, I may as well do it again. Do you sometimes install ceiling speakers connected back to a central matrix amp in a room that will also have an AV system? In my kitchen I have in-wall speakers and a C4 speaker point. The kitchen also has a TV with an AVR with speakers, but that is in a different area of a fairly large kitchen. I have just added a used HC250 controller that is on the TV shelf, connected to the AVR. I kind of like having the in-wall speakers for background music and they will sometimes even be used while the TV is on. Do you have situations where you do installs like this? Ceiling speakers for background music and announcements and then a full AV system with surround sound for more "serious" listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 4 hours ago, ILoveC4 said: You’re right...it’s a 7.1 input. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Get an Oppo 205 or if you want multichannel streaming -the Exasound Playpoint/E28 combo and put those 7.1 inputs to use for proper analog surround sound. I've got an Audirvana Mac mini E28 Combo so that's what I do for my one primary listening room (My HT) .. HDMI killed sound playback. It's full of jitter. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 3 hours ago, zaphod said: Do you have situations where you do installs like this? Ceiling speakers for background music and announcements and then a full AV system with surround sound for more "serious" listening. Not sure about more 'serious' listening, but yes we've done several of these setups or similar ones. In most cases it's either (or both) for keeping music in sync at all times (sometimes just not quite possible with a receiver in the mix) or to ensure full volume 'sync' - in other words, when combining zones, and controlling them, from the zones page 40% in one zone is equal to the next, and (more importantly) that's the same across ANY volume %. In some cases there are separate speakers, often the case if there are free standing speakers for the main receiver zone, in others we use a speaker switch (Niles) to switch which amp is powering the speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 For serious listening you have to go analog out. Not HDMI. Thats why they still have the analog connectors in quality gear like the Oppo and Marantz.. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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