HELP with whole house system - Can I do all this with Control4?

[infojunkie]

Hi everyone,

this is my first post. I've been lurking for a while and have learnt a lot about the capabilities/issues/limitations with the Control4 system from all the great content on this forum. I'm currently planning a full HA system for my new build home. Studying the leading systems on the market trying to decide which is best for my needs. I'm still very much at the early stages - mapping out requirements etc. From my research so far I think that C4 would be capable of achieving most, if not all what I want to achieve but would value some feedback from any C4 owners on how well they think it would work. I recognise that there are benefits and limitations with each of the leading HA systems; be it cost, flexibility, simplicity etc. I'm not here to rubbish or promote anything in particular, just to learn and help myself make an informed decision, hopefully with the assistance of some honest experience based advice. I've mapped out my requirements below (along with my own assumptions to date as to what C4 can deliver). Any feedback greatly appreciated.

HA must haves:-

Scalable whole house audio distribution (check)

Full thermostatic control/programability of heating system (oil fired under floor heating) - actuators are 240v (UK). (check - but likely will need 3rd party thermostat or integrated heating management system as C4 thermostats not ideally suited being 12v and from feedback don't seem to be 100% reliable at least outside US market).

Security (Alarm) integration (check, with driver)

Lighting control (Lutron or similar) (check, with driver)

Energy consumption monitoring and reporting (no idea, can C4 do this? what options are there?)

Full integration with itunes - have a huge library already managed with itunes so don't want to abandon that or have to migrate. (Not natively. AppleTV remote replacement possible as well as ipod integration - is there another whole house option that C4 can integrate with that does have itunes API level control?. So far seems ATV at each point is my best bet until C4 address the API level issue if they ever do)

All primary subsystems to be fully operable in the event that C4 "brain" dies or is removed for some reason (security, lighting, heating - obviously I would have to interact through point access panels and could not use the main C4 interface if this were to happen).

Dedicated home cinema room:-

Blu Ray (Arcam or Denon Transport)

AppleTV

Satellite TV (Sky HD).

Masking screen (Screen Research or SMX)

Projector (JVC) with anamorphic lens.

Surround Sound processor. (Arcam)

Integration of the above.

Nice to haves/future requirements:-

IP Security camrea (full control and recording management) - (Check, Panasonic seems my best option here)

Door Entry / gate entry control/intercom. (check, not sure on best options though)

Integration of each room's motion detection (for security Alarm) with the heating/lighting control for efficiency management when no motion is detected.

Remote management of all of the above (via iphone or similar) (limited but some possible today, will evolve I'm sure to add functionality and improve as mobile bandwidth becomes more available so no sure there is a real difference between what any vendor can provide in this space at the moment C4 apps seems as rounded as anything from AMX/Crestron as far as I can tell).

So any feedback any of you can provide on the above will be welcome. Please point out if there are other C4 integration optios that I can consider for each requirement.

Finally, cost aside, if you have already installed or have attampted a similar setup yourself, would you re-do it with C4 again, or would you look more closely at another system 2nd time around after living with C4?

Answers on a postcard please

Cheers!

PS: I'm aware (although being technically minded, not entirely happy) with the Dealer dependency limitations C4 impose post install, So when I talk about "yourself" here I mean within the constraints of what dealer has to do for you in addition to what you can do yourself as an end user. But the terms are the terms so have to live with that for the time being.

[akg4y]

HA must haves:-

Energy consumption monitoring and reporting (no idea, can C4 do this? what options are there?)

Yes - http://www.peaksoftwarecorp.com/

Integration of the above.

Nice to haves/future requirements:-

IP Security camrea (full control and recording management) - (Check, Panasonic seems my best option here)

- Cameras yes, Im not sure how the recording is done yet or if there is a way to record off-site.

Door Entry / gate entry control/intercom. (check, not sure on best options though)

- The intercom on the C4 touchpanels is not yet functional so you would have to do 3rd party.

Remote management of all of the above (via iphone or similar) (limited but some possible today, will evolve I'm sure to add functionality and improve as mobile bandwidth becomes more available so no sure there is a real difference between what any vendor can provide in this space at the moment C4 apps seems as rounded as anything from AMX/Crestron as far as I can tell).

- Yes, via internet & iPhone.

[thecodeman]

Security camera DVR recording is not done by control4, but you can control the dvr just like your cable box so you get the pause, ff, rw, stop, play, etc.

[infojunkie]

Well after a good few demos and many a long discussions with my Installer I've decided to take the plunge and go with C4. In the end I had to compromise on quite a few of the above spec as to be honest I was not convinced of C4's capability in some of the areas. But I'm reliably informed that a few of them will be addressed in the near future through a new software update so for the time being I am planning on the basis of installing a Control4 system. The missing pieces I'll get custom controls knocked up on the iphone to plug the gaps. At least that way I can manage the whole house from the same device. But overall I was quite impressed with the system. And to be fair given its infancy and price point in comparison to the others not a bad effort I think.

The key areas I felt that Control4 was a little lacking:

Heating Control. Just not ready for prime time in EMEA region for this aspect of home automation IMHO compared to the bigger players.

Video Intercom: How hard can it be? I have a workaround, but this needs to be addressed quickly by Control4.

iTunes Integration: Still not there, but supposed to be improving. At least I'll not have to re-encode all my files it seems. That would have been a deal breaker.

No GUI interface flexibility - one of my personal gripes but I was outvoted in the end on this one. Tut the interface does need a polish compared to the best I saw though. The words Fisher and Price came to mind.

The key areas that I felt Control4 came out better than the other evaluated:

Simplicity and ease of use.

Consistency of interface. (my wife's view so I can't argue with that one!), But I appreciate that this will probably make it easier for the whole family to learn how to use it quickly and therefore get more benefit and enjoyment from it.

Value for money - still pricey for the plastic quality of the hardware IMHO, but some of the other brands are living in never never land I think too in this regards. In any case I'm hoping the iphone/ipod app will work on the new Mega ipod that Apple is rumored to be brining out so a few of them dotted around will be used rater than the Control4 touch-panels. Basic end user configurability/control

So I'm waiting for 2.0 then I'll quite likely be joining the club!

[thecodeman]

Video intercom? We dont even have regular intercom yet

[wingzz]

Video intercom? We dont even have regular intercom yet

oh great now you tell us

[infojunkie]

shocking indeed. I think I have a workable solution to that tough so I'm not overly concerned at this point.

But it would be nice to have something supported that would plug and play. Pretty basic stuff you would expect. There's a lot that's missing that needs to be addressed before that "Home Automation and Home Control" tag line becomes reality IMHO.

[henniae]

<SNIP>

The key areas that I felt Control4 came out better than the other evaluated:

</SNIP>

You bring up many positive and negative points about Control 4. Would you be willing to share what other systems you evaluated?

[infojunkie]

You bring up many positive and negative points about Control 4. Would you be willing to share what other systems you evaluated?

AMX and Crestron. Each had pros and cons. Obviously the other brands are much more established so have a broader set of options and customization and there are multiple options for most things you need to do. But that comes at a cost which whilst I was comfortable with, did not think it was entirely justified at this point.

Truth be told money no object I would have probably gone with the Crestron route, but as this is my first venture into CI/HA then I felt that the value which Control4 represented was a better balance of functionality to cost of implementation. This did involve some compromise as mentioned above but they are mainly ones that I felt I could live with in the short term. With so much flexibility from the other vendors it would have been easy to get carried away and stray into six figures when all the bells and whistles were covered. In a way Control4's limitations were a natural break in this regard. Until I know if this kind of integration is something I will use long term I decided that a lower entry point was a more prudent approach in case I get bored of it or find that it is not really that useful.

Any underlying negativity regarding Control4 that may come across in my posts, despite selecting their solution, has more to do with the their relative immaturity in the EMEA market. Whereas comparing like for like in the US would yield a narrower band of differentiation between capabilities, this is much more evident in EMEA. A function of the company's youth, but it would have been nice to see more thought and investment go into localizing products and partnership before pushing their solution to the market. I can understand why this is so, even if I don't respect it.

My hope is that this will improve, and in a way I'm taking a gamble that it will. But this factor was the key reason for me scaling back some of the overall specification and taking a but more of a wait and see approach so some of the functionality. If things move in the direction that has been indicated to me in various conversations then that will pay off. If not, then I'll just end up with a nice whole house audio system that can switch off the lights and I'll end up looking elsewhere for future projects and solutions. Time will tell if I've made the right decision. I'm comfortable with it at this point.

[henniae]

<snip>

Any underlying negativity regarding Control4 that may come across in my posts,

</snip>

I do not feel your post was negative at all and you did not come across as such.

You did plenty of research and concluded Control 4 was the best choice for you. Good luck with your new system.

[Automator]

Hi InfoJunkie,

I also just chose Control4 in spite of the lack of the intercom function which is really annoying. Would you be able to share your workaround because I am looking for one as well.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[partickup]

I can understand the reason for cutting back on costs etc, one thing that Control 4 can't deal with right now is High definition distribution around the house. With component video being a technology that's definitely on it's way out, everyone is having to resort to other ways of getting HD distributed around the house. Most people think it's easy but they don't understand all the issues and hidden secrets that come with HDMI.

I'll be 100% honest we don't currently install Control4 as we are Crestron dealers, I've looked at Control4 but just can't seem to bring myself to start installing it, I've always seen it as a smaller system for apartments not a house.

Crestron are constantly bringing out new products that can pretty much deal with every need we have for our clients. We find them very reliable and with their new Prodigy line coming it looks like they will be just as competitive as Control4 pricing.

If you're still convinced that Control 4 is what's best then Good luck with your system, but if I was an end user I would want to go for something that has been around for a while and has a proven track record of reliability and scalability after all it is your house.

[CFUG]

^Typical troll post

[ILoveC4]

^^I have Control4 controlling all the lighting, video distribution, audio distribution, surveilance, etc... Sure, Crestron is great, but Control4 is a fraction of the cost, much easier to retro and add to later, etc...

A friend of mine has a 46,000 square foot house (currently under contract for sale, it was listed for $29.5 million) with Control4 running everything. If it works in a house like that (and is still impressive to people), that shows me it can probably be adapted to work in just about any application no matter how large.

[RyanE]

Nice troll.

I'll be 100% honest. Someone who doesn't currently sell Control4, and likely has not learned much about it is a poor person to advise about a system's capabilities.

It is true that Control4 does not produce video switching solutions. What is not true is that 'Control4 can not handle HD video switching'.

Control4 has decided to not be in the video switching business. Control4 is in the *automation* business, and can control dozens (or more when drivers are written) of 3rd-party video switches (including HDMI, HDMI over CAT5, HD over Component, etc.).

Control4's strategy actually provides *many more* options for video switching than even Crestron's line of video switches, which are likely awesome, if quite pricey.

RyanE

Edited to add: categorization of video switches.

[akg4y]

partickup, after spending 3-4x as much on a Crestron system how much can the user program and customize it without calling and paying a dealer? Oh right....

[AS2]

infojunkie - full steam ahead. don't hesitate. our shop build huge systems with Control4 without hesitation. it works and its quick and painless to program. you can do your wishlist no problem and by the time it is build they'll be close to releasing 2.0 which will feature flash interface and future custom GUI capabilities.

Given your understanding of how this all works, I think you'd be surprised by how rudimentary the Crestron backbone is - it's a 1980's solution really. You can push it to the limits and it's solid, but its old balls.

[3fingerbrown]

I also just chose Control4 in spite of the lack of the intercom function which is really annoying. Would you be able to share your workaround because I am looking for one as well.

My "work around" is putting an IP phone in each room that has intercom functions. An intercom can only call other rooms in the house, but a phone can call other rooms in the house and anywhere in the world. Plus, the new Panasonic IP phones have control4 integration, so they can be used to control TVs, lighting, open doors, etc. I really don't see why you would want to just an intercom when you can have so much more for the same price, intercoms are best left as relics of the late 80's and 90's, in my opinion.

Also, you should check out a bunch of other cameras besides Panasonic. Toshiba and ACTi make a great outdoor IP bullet camera that has night time functionality.

If you want to save, lose the in-wall interfaces and use the room's large screen TV as an interface. That is what we realized, anywhere we wanted an in-wall interface there was already a TV, so why use the small screen? More unsolicited advice...

[ILoveC4]

I also just chose Control4 in spite of the lack of the intercom function which is really annoying. Would you be able to share your workaround because I am looking for one as well.

My "work around" is putting an IP phone in each room that has intercom functions. An intercom can only call other rooms in the house' date=' but a phone can call other rooms in the house and anywhere in the world. Plus, the new Panasonic IP phones have control4 integration, so they can be used to control TVs, lighting, open doors, etc. I really don't see why you would want to just an intercom when you can have so much more for the same price, intercoms are best left as relics of the late 80's and 90's, in my opinion.

Also, you should check out a bunch of other cameras besides Panasonic. Toshiba and ACTi make a great outdoor IP bullet camera that has night time functionality.

If you want to save, lose the in-wall interfaces and use the room's large screen TV as an interface. That is what we realized, anywhere we wanted an in-wall interface there was already a TV, so why use the small screen? More unsolicited advice...[/quote']

Intercoms still have there place. You can't beat the fact that when someone "calls" you on the intercom, you don't need to move or do anything to answer, you just talk back. Plus, you have monitoring features and stuff as well. Check out the On-Q Select Call...it may change your mind. That is what is going in to my house!

[murphydl]

Hi Guys,

New to this Forum so hope i dont annoy too many people by posting here.

I was wondering if it is possible to display the Caller ID of an incoming phone call on the TV through the C4 system?

Thanks

[ILoveC4]

Hi Guys,

New to this Forum so hope i dont annoy too many people by posting here.

I was wondering if it is possible to display the Caller ID of an incoming phone call on the TV through the C4 system?

Thanks

Yes...with a 3rd party box.

www.callerid.com. It interfaces with your Control4 system via RS-232, and there is a driver already writen.

[RyanE]

It'll only display it on the TV if you're looking at the Navigator, though.

It does not provide an overlay.

RyanE

[murphydl]

Thanks for the prompt replies guys.

The Caller ID is not much use so if it only appears on the Navigator because in fairnes I dont spend much time sitting down loking at the menu .. I thought it would appear on the screen while I was watching TV.

As you can see this is only my second post! The thing is I built a new house and spent alot of money on my C4 equipment (including HC500) with the promises of being able to do so many things. Everytime I ask my supplier about doing this that and the other its usually "oh you need to buy this to be able to do that etc":

At the moment All I seem to be able to do is turn on and off the lights

Listen to my IPOD/Radio in Multiple rooms

Watch DVD player in any room etc ...

Share my Sky Box on different rooms

Which makes me sick considering the money I spent on the system.

It seems I cant even do something simple like catalogue all my DVD collection onto a Harddrive and being able to access them directly through Control 4 ... Im told I need a Media Server .. I already have 2 Laptops in the house so am not buying another PC.

I do love gadgets and technology so though with this system I could have simple things like:

1) Prompt on Screen when phone rings/Door bell rings

2) access to Movie DB

etc.

I have now got access to Composer S/W so am checking out what I can really do with the system whic has disappointed to date.

[thecodeman]

Which makes me sick considering the money I spent on the system.

It seems I cant even do something simple like catalogue all my DVD collection onto a Harddrive and being able to access them directly through Control 4 ... Im told I need a Media Server .. I already have 2 Laptops in the house so am not buying another PC.

I do love gadgets and technology so though with this system I could have simple things like:

1) Prompt on Screen when phone rings/Door bell rings

2) access to Movie DB

etc.

I have now got access to Composer S/W so am checking out what I can really do with the system whic has disappointed to date.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but the Control4 system is designed to be scalable. Not everyone wants the same features as you - and this is how more people are able to start using Control4 today and expand as they see fit. The base package of a controller, remote, and installation is extremely affordable, considering the same controller can control pretty much everything in your house.

So to get your movies from your hard drive, you need a third party box (netgear, zatabit, xbmc on your pc) or the Control4 media player.

To get the doorbell notifications, you need a kit from Card Access (http://www.cardaccess-inc.com/automation/products/index.php?a=details&i=IDP10B).

As you and I both know, loving gadgets and technology we must be aware of the costs of this constantly evolving hobby. As technology matures, we'll all be getting better "bang" for our "buck". Remember when DVD players first came out?

[mercedes]

QFT

I know I will always be investing in my toys. Some people tell me that I am throwing away money, but as long as what I just paid for works as promised, I can't be upset or feel I am throwing away money if I chose to upgrade/install new device when it comes available. A few years ago it seemed like I was rebuilding my home PC every few months. It is not that it didn't work; I just wanted bigger and better. These days I am very happy with the performance of my home PCs so I don't upgrade them as often. It is all about what you are happy with. I am sure the home automation stuff will be the same way.

Which makes me sick considering the money I spent on the system.

It seems I cant even do something simple like catalogue all my DVD collection onto a Harddrive and being able to access them directly through Control 4 ... Im told I need a Media Server .. I already have 2 Laptops in the house so am not buying another PC.

I do love gadgets and technology so though with this system I could have simple things like:

1) Prompt on Screen when phone rings/Door bell rings

2) access to Movie DB

etc.

I have now got access to Composer S/W so am checking out what I can really do with the system whic has disappointed to date.

I'm sorry you feel that way' date=' but the Control4 system is designed to be scalable. Not everyone wants the same features as you - and this is how more people are able to start using Control4 today and expand as they see fit. The base package of a controller, remote, and installation is extremely affordable, considering the same controller can control pretty much everything in your house.

So to get your movies from your hard drive, you need a third party box (netgear, zatabit, xbmc on your pc) or the Control4 media player.

To get the doorbell notifications, you need a kit from Card Access (http://www.cardaccess-inc.com/automation/products/index.php?a=details&i=IDP10B).

As you and I both know, loving gadgets and technology we must be aware of the costs of this constantly evolving hobby. As technology matures, we'll all be getting better "bang" for our "buck". Remember when DVD players first came out?[/quote']