Is Control4 right for me?

[ironmicd]

I have been researching Control4 for over a year now and finally ready to either make the purchase or go with another system like the new Niles ZR-6. I am hoping members of the Forum can help me address some of my concerns which should help me determine the right solution based on my needs.

Let me start with my biggest hang up with Control4: Required programming by a dealer. Is this correct or can someone like myself who considers themselves skilled in programming (work for a software company) perform the configuration on my own? Should programming be required, can someone provide me with a quote to help program is I purchased a system on this forum or eBay?

My Application:

I'm looking to control my current multiroom audio system with 6 Zones of music (not including home theater) powered by a Niles 12 channel 1230 amp with the MRZ controller. My current Niles unit has keypads, but they are limited to On/Off and Volume Control. I would like to add control the audio source (mostly FIOS Cable via HD TIVO ) for my Music channels, and have and an IR feed on the keypad to send signals to the TIVO or other component.

Hardware being considered:

HC300 because it will allow me to grow in to the system over time perhaps adding my home theater and some lights.

For initial controls I would consider using the new iphone app and possibly one or two basic keypads. (Trying to keep costs down)

Potential Issue:

What I can't seem to comprehend is how Control4 HC300 will control the volumes on my Niles 1230? Would it replace the MRZ-6, or work in conjunction with it? It makes me wonder if the new Niles ZR-6 might be a better option with the weather proof solo key pads? I would hate to purchase the HC300 and find out controlling the volume on the Niles is an issue.

I know my posting reads more to the effect that the Niles seems to be the right choice for me, but the Control4 automation and iphone controller has me intrigued. Please help!

Thanks in advance for any advice.....

[jberger]

I feel like any response will be opening a can of worms, but since you asked. . .

If you don't buy from a C4 dealer, you don't get any warranty support from Control4 since the distribution model is dealer only. Unless it's brand new and current, most of the stuff on ebay is old and none of it has warranty coverage.

It's not that C4 requires a high degree of programming skill, it's experience that makes programming in composer efficient. And since the advanced programming tools are only available to dealers, I'd suggest just working with someone in your area to purchase the equipment and have it installed.

In your present configuration, it sounds like the niles is setup as a single source, 6 room amp, with electronic volume controls at each room.

I don't know of a C4 driver that will directly control the niles box, so you will need a driver written if you want to retain the volume controls in each location and control them from the system. It could be done via IR between the controller and the Niles box, but it's one way only, so no feedback other than amp on/off.

Alternatively, you could use something like a C4 matrix audio switch to provide volume level control without needing the niles box or associated keypads. You won't see an IR window on C4 keypads, touchpanels or LCD's, all of the IR control is provided with the HC located with the sources so keep that in mind.

The cheap way would be to upgrade your niles controller to something like the ZR with metadata keypads. This would give you the control you need at the keypad, plus metadata and you could keep the existing amp and most of the wiring. It's not a control solution, but it's fine for audio and is an upgrade to what you have now.

The alternative would be dumping the niles gear altogether and using a C4 4 or 8 room amp with a controller. This would give you feedback for all of the rooms, full control and a choice of digital and analog source inputs with full control of the source gear. You don't need any keypads if you want to use the iPhone as the primary control point. You could add remotes, panels or keypads as your budget and needs change down the road.

[mthomtech]

I was kind of in your situation when I was contemplating Control 4 and finding a dealer. I considered myself, as an engineer and someone familiar with programming, able to integrate and program the system. I kept thinking why would I pay a dealer to do something that 1) I felt like I could do ... and 2) that I would actually enjoy doing.

But it's easy to under-estimate the value of the dealer ... and their experience. It's like deciding on whether you want to go through several QA cycles with your system, or have it work out of the box. I found an excellent dealer that knew what worked best, and what my best options were. The good news is that Composer Home Edition, will let you use your programming skills to endlessly enhance your system's capabilities to fit your everyday life.

So, I'd recommend researching a good dealer in your area, and talk with them about what you want. Worst case is you come out of it with a lot more information. Best case, you work out a deal and cut a lot of corners and headaches in the installation.

I value my dealer, even 2.5 years later. I also have found a lot of useful information here on this forum. You won't get tired of "playing" with your Control 4 system. It's definitely a good choice if you like to program new enhancements.

My only warning ... there is NO way you'll want to stop at 6 zones of audio!!!! Not when you see all the things you can do. I would have never realized how valuable having lighting and garage, and security, and video distribution, cameras, doorbell ... you get the picture. It's like going from a VCR to Tivo.

The good news is ... you can do it in steps, as the budget (and in my case ... the wife) allows!

[ironmicd]

I appreciate the feedback. It's too funny because that's exactly my problem: I can't get out of my head the fact that I wonder why should I pay for someone to do something I should be able to do on my own and two love to do. If the Home Composure can help me do some of the work on my own then that might satisfy some of the programming urges I may have. I just find doing things on your own more satisfying. One note on my Niles amp, it has ability to handle 6 different sources.

Ideally the C4 amps would give the most control, but based on posting on this site and others their are far too many complaints for me to go with them, esp. replacing my rock solid 1230 that is also bridgeable to power outdoor speakers on a rather large outdoor space.

I can definitely understand the value of a dealer and the experience they bring to the table. Being in software I see that from my own day to day experiences.

Anyone in the Northern Jersey area have experience working with 6th Ave or Electronics EXPO installers? They seem to offer decent packages, but wonder about their install services. Mostly their programming, I would do all the install of wires and panels just to feel like I am doing something and other then time consuming it's a very easy process to undertake.

Any idea on how many hours it should take/cost estimate on the services to program the HC/300 and the iphone? What about the time needed to write the Niles driver?

Now if I went with the Audio Matrix switch would I still need the HC300?

If my wife wouldn't kill me, this wouldn't be such an issue. I am an impulsive shopper and made some big purchases and she's starting to draw a line in the sand! With the set-up I can at least add things over time so she doesn't question it!

[thecodeman]

What's wrong with the Control4 amps? The v3 units are very nice. I haven't heard as many complaints about them as I have heard "complaints" about other pieces of Control4 gear.

In regards to estimating price, that's hard to do without seeing it or knowing exactly what you are buying and what's being integrated. I can tel you that the niles driver wont be cheap or quick if one doesnt exist and you need two way control/feedback.

If you buy anything Control4, you always have to have a controller. If not a 300, then a 200 is fine for a one-controller project. But then when you want to expand and put another controller somewhere else or to do other things, then you have to buy a 300/500/1000 to be the "master". At that point you'll have to talk your wife about it.

There are a lot of things that you can do with Control4 after you've had the system initially setup by a dealer. The only things you can't do with Composer HE are add or remove devices, change how devices are connected to one another, and program loops. The reasons for it being this way are discussed quite a bit here, but it comes down to the fact that it's Control4's model at this time and you have to decide if it's right for you. Having said that, I have yet to have one of our customers complain that they had to call me just because they wanted to change out a piece of gear or change the way something's hooked up. We're typically using the time to also program certain things, do system upgrades, or the change that they are making is the result of buying new gear from us and we've included the change cost in the quote.

*edit* To also add, that the network is the unconditional backbone of any Control4 installation. "Cheap" or improperly configured gear will drive you up the wall so make sure that your dealer has a good track record. Ask for references, as you're doing. See it in person.

[ironmicd]

I appreciate the feedback and hope to have a decisonmade although it doesn't seem like an easy answer. An HC300 or 200 plus the active matrix switch. Minimally 2k in hardware plus the license for the iphone app and then programing. Getting closer. Just wish someone had the niles and could help me with how they configured it.....

[mthomtech]

That is funny ... it was the same story with my wife ... I'm also an impulse shopper with new technology.

My system is already relatively old. I have what they used to call a media controller as my backbone. I added an 8 zone C4 Amp, some Home Theater controllers for the TV's and a third-party video matrix for the video distribution. I actually haven't had a problem with the amp (or any of the components for that matter). I have all 8 zones fully utilized, and a 9th zone directly connected from a receiver for the media room.

I was lucky and decided on Control 4 while building the house, so I was able to run a lot of Cat 5e and was able to put all equipment in a rack in my media room closet ... so no equipment anywhere else.

It may be worth thinking about your dream system, and then back off from there ... but that way, you've thought about what all you'll need in the future.

If the dealers in your area have a showhome, you can see a lot of things in a real world setting.

Good Luck!!!

[ILoveC4]

Now this is funny....as I was reading mthomtech's post I realized it was nearly exactly what I was going to type....it was like I was reading my own post!

I too have what would be considered an older system. I initially started with a media controller and an 8 zone C4 Amp, along with a Sony 777 DVD changer and a third party video matrix switch for video distribution. I use all 8 zones of audio, including my back yard (you seemed to imply that the C4 amp couldn't power outdoor speakers). I used my system in this configuration for more than two years!

Since then I have added a couple of the newer controllers to take advantage of the HD GUI and faster processing, but I have never had one second of problem or anything with my amp, and I am pretty certain it is a V1 (it may be a V2, but certainly isn't a V3). It just works and it works flawlessly! I also still utilize my "old school" media controller for running zserver and serving up my audio.

Like mthomtech said, think about everything you might possibly want to do down the road, prioritize, and the do what the budget (and the wife ;-)) allows. The beauty of Control4 is that it can very easily be done in stages.

Good luck with your decision.

[panamagixxer]

The WIFE allows me to upgrades about every 3 months or so. I added a 500 to replace the old controller last summer, added a 37" TV in my office in last fall, added the Control UI in the 1st quarter of this year and recently added the ipod dock. What is next (here comes the 3rd quarter)!!!! Maybe a wireless speaker point and speakers in the garage?? (kick myself for not doing that in the initial install)

[Matt]

The WIFE allows me to upgrades about every 3 months or so. I added a 500 to replace the old controller last summer, added a 37" TV in my office in last fall, added the Control UI in the 1st quarter of this year and recently added the ipod dock. What is next (here comes the 3rd quarter)!!!! Maybe a wireless speaker point and speakers in the garage?? (kick myself for not doing that in the initial install)

Speaker points are awesome – I just added my 9th one to my system

Tell her you need a 7” portable….

[thecodeman]

Speaker points are awesome – I just added my 9th one to my system

Tell her you need a 7” portable….

Don't tell C4 you have 9. They want you to use the MCA's beyond 4

[CFUG]

I would not recommend the suggestion, to anyone's wife, of a 7" WiFi

[thecodeman]

I would not recommend the suggestion, to anyone's wife, of a 7" WiFi

Because it won't AP hop?

[henniae]

The WIFE allows me to upgrades about every 3 months or so. I added a 500 to replace the old controller last summer' date=' added a 37" TV in my office in last fall, added the Control UI in the 1st quarter of this year and recently added the ipod dock. What is next (here comes the 3rd quarter)!!!! Maybe a wireless speaker point and speakers in the garage?? (kick myself for not doing that in the initial install)[/quote']

Speaker points are awesome – I just added my 9th one to my system

Tell her you need a 7” portable….

Wired or wireless speaker point?

[CFUG]

I would not recommend the suggestion' date=' to anyone's wife, of a 7" WiFi[/quote']

Because it won't AP hop?

No, but that's a point others need to understand before spending on this. I'll explain something, not all wives are created equal. My wife doesn't sit here and analyze the Visa bill when it comes in. I put together the C4 system and made it next to invisible and then trained her for basic needs and that was it. As long as the system works day after day for her, I don't hear static. Then came the high-flash WiFi 7" sitt'n pretty on the bar and the questions started. Never had this happen before and believe me I've got other toys.

The 7" doesn't need to AP hop- the WiFi system needs to be meshed and you can do it for less money than would be imagined.

[mthomtech]

ILoveC4 - That is funny ... we do have pretty much the same setup. I just haven't been "allowed" to upgrade my controllers yet.

panamagixxer - A quarterly upgrade is pretty good ... maybe I'll suggest that

I haven't ever really considered speaker points ... probably because I had everything wired to a central closet. But recently I've considered adding another zone in the house. Does the speaker point essetially act as another amplified zone ... adding a 9th zone to my 8 zone amp? It would be nice to add another zone of audio, and an HTC to a room I turned into an workout room ... (because of course my wife and I use the lack of TV and/or music as the reason we don't step foot in there!).

I'm completely maxed on my zone inputs (which wouldn't change), and zone outputs ... I actually have a 9th "zone" which is a digital receiver for my media room, but it's really not a zone since I just have audio from the FiOS boxes and DVD's directly connected to the receiver.

I always thought that I'd need to add another amplifier, or move to the audio matrix if I added another zone ... but maybe a speaker point and HTC would work. I've got plenty of room on the video switch to handle that part of the equation.

[ILoveC4]

You can just add a speaker point, effectively adding another zone. You don't need an HTC there, unless you want navigator local on that TV and not through the matrix switch.

I am going to add one of these in the garage, I don't know why I didn't think of that when I did the initial install. I am going to use a WiFi speakerpoint. It is basically an amp that will receive it's audio inputs wirelessly from your C4 system.

[mthomtech]

That's good to know. What's the MSRP on the speaker points? I like the idea of a wireless one, so that if we ever change the rooms, we can easily move everything with it. I never wired the extra bedrooms upstairs when we built the house, because I figured when we did use them, I had good access from the attic. One of those rooms is where we made the workout room. Would be a nice addition to have TV and audio there for my next upgrade!

[RyanE]

As long as you aren't planning on using video on the TV, and audio on the SpeakerPoint. Since the audio is streamed to the SpeakerPoint, there is a delay on encoding the audio and decoding, so it wouldn't be in sync with the TV video.

Just FYI.

RyanE

[mthomtech]

Ahh ... good point RyanE. So the speaker points are essentially good for audio only. I assume the delay is also true if you had a speaker point zone along with other audio zones from the C4 amp ... the speaker point would not be completely in sync with the other zones, correct?

So if I do ever go the speaker point route, I should relegate a zone that I only use for audio to the speaker point and add the new zone to the amp.

[RyanE]

As long as you're talking digital audio all the way, the system syncs up all the zones.

i.e. if you're listening to MP3's, they're pulled somewhere off the network, streamed to both a controller (like an HC300) where it's distributed with traditional multi-room audio to speakers, and it's also streamed to the SpeakerPoint. The system should sync the speaker point zone with the zone(s) playing out of the HC300.

If you're listening to an analog source, which has also been fed into an HC300 or other controllers' line in, the analog source going into the audio switch is not digitized at all, while the speaker point output has been digitized, so they would not be in sync.

Of course, I have no Speaker Point devices in my home, so I haven't experienced this first-hand, but I believe that is how it is supposed to work.

RyanE

[mthomtech]

OK ... so digital audio from the media controller should be in sync, but radio from an external tuner, may have a sync problem ... and obviously same with TV audio.

Well, the dealer originally recommended the audio matrix in addition to the 8 zone amp, which really would have set me up for growth (and even handled what I currently have the best), but in an effort to stay in budget, we sacrificed having the media room as a full zone, since it is really only used for movies and some TV, and not music ... and nixed the audio matrix.

So now, the next upgrade will be a little pricier Right now the next on my list is adding the workout room and a TV on the back patio. The back patio will be easier, becasue it's already an audio zone, and I prewired some Cat 5's and power for video. So that's really just the TV and setup/programming time.

Now, if I could only hit the big red 4 and have the system cover all of my work deliverables ... everything would be great!

[ILoveC4]

Now, if I could only hit the big red 4 and have the system cover all of my work deliverables ... everything would be great!

I hear that is coming with the paid upgrade to 2.0.

[RyanE]

If you really have the speaker wiring already run, I would always recommend the switch / amp over several SpeakerPoint devices.

RyanE

[bebster]

I had the same situation with 9 "zones" but only 8 channels of amp capacity. So I found 2 pairs of speakers in connected rooms that I always played at the same time, and just connected them in parallel at the amp. (amp can handle 4 ohm loads so no problem there). That freed up 1 channel for the 9th zone so I didn't need another amp or speaker point.