Design help for engineer new to C4 with a less than helpful dealer

[Bob Frapples]

I am a longtime network engineer who recently purchased a home with a poorly designed C4 implementation. After some work, everything that should be working is working, but I have a design issue that is beyond my local C4 dealer's expertise. I'm hoping someone here with more C4 experience can help me with a second set of eyes. Here's the basic setup:

1. First floor has 3 TVs, each with: Sonos Playbars, Cat6 drops running to a 24-port managed GigE switch in the basement, and HDMI/IR running to the first floor media cabinet.

2. First floor media cabinet has a Wyrestorm 4x4 matrix, an EA5, 2 Apple TVs, a BluRay player, an HDTV antenna, and a small GigE switch connected to the basement switch.

3. Second floor has 3 standalone TVs, each with Sonos Playbars and Cat6 drops running to the basement switch.

I want to integrate the second floor TVs into the first floor's C4 setup. The dealer has offered a solution that amounts to 3 EA1s and 3 Apple TVs--basically 3 separate rooms--because there's "no way to transport HDMI or IR". Obviously, that's not true. Since each of the second floor TVs has a home run Cat6 to the basement, would it be possible to:

-let the second floor Playbars connect via WiFi
-put HDBaseT transmitters with the TVs
-put an HDBaseT receiver in the basement and connect the Cat6 cables for the TVs to that instead of the Ethernet switch
-add a matrix in the basement with an EA1/3/5(?)

Alternatively, are there reliable and functional HDMI-and-IR-over-IP devices that would allow me to (a) avoid having the Playbars run wirelessly and (b) simply get a bigger matrix for the first floor media cabinet and connect the IP-transported HDMI and IR from the second floor there instead?

Is there something else I'm missing? Other solutions?

Thanks!

[eggzlot]

You outline your system but not the issue you are experiencing. 

is there a reason the system was designed with 6 tvs but a 4x4 matrix?  the sources in the 4x4 switch, are they not to be shared with second floor tvs - they have their own sources connected locally?

how many cat6 drops at each tv?  what model TVs?  If they are TVs running Android you could put an IRUSB at each TV in the USB input and use that IR to control the soundbar if the soundbar has an IR receiver (not sure how those sound bars work).  

You could also sell the 4x4 and buy a bigger HDMI HDBaseT matrix or get a flexible/scalable Video over IP distribution system and that will give you extra IR at each location too.  

If you just need extra cable behind each TV you can put a small splitter to get an extra cable.

[Bob Frapples]

Thanks!

You outline your system but not the issue you are experiencing. 

Sorry if that wasn't clear: the second floor TVs aren't part of the first floor C4 system.  They are standalone TVs.

is there a reason the system was designed with 6 tvs but a 4x4 matrix?  the sources in the 4x4 switch, are they not to be shared with second floor tvs - they have their own sources connected locally?

I am not sure why they designed it this way, or why they designed the EA5 to be located on the first floor instead of in the basement.  I assume they did it because it was easier/cheaper to run HDMI/IR because 2 of the 3 TVs on the first floor share a common wall with the media cabinet, and the third TV is only about 25 feet away in the next room.  That's not how I would have designed this network, but, yes, the way it is set up now, the 4x4 matrix is enough because the first floor only has 3 TVs and each second floor TV is separate with its own source(s) and not connected at all to the C4 setup on the first floor.

how many cat6 drops at each tv?

Just 1.  Unfortunately, there is no conduit to easily pull more, so running additional drops is going to be major engineering.  Assume that isn't an option.

what model TVs?  If they are TVs running Android you could put an IRUSB at each TV in the USB input and use that IR to control the soundbar if the soundbar has an IR receiver (not sure how those sound bars work).  

Samsung, but I don't want to depend on having a particular model of TV.  The Sonos units are connected via digital audio to the TVs and integrated into the Sonos network, so that part of the setup is fine.  I am basically trying to eliminate the local sources at each of the second floor TVs and get them integrated into the C4 network.

You could also sell the 4x4 and buy a bigger HDMI HDBaseT matrix or get a flexible/scalable Video over IP distribution system and that will give you extra IR at each location too.  

Yes, those are the two ideas I mentioned above.  With HDBaseT, though, I can't get to the first floor media cabinet since I don't have any direct runs to that cabinet from the second floor.  That's why my first idea was HDBaseT in the basement because I have direct runs from the TVs' drops to the basement, so HDBaseT would work.  I would need an appropriate EA director for that option.  Would an EA1 work for that?  To get to the first floor media cabinet, I would have to go with an IP-based video distribution solution.  That would certainly be more flexible.  All 6 of the TVs could share all of the same sources.

I am looking for ideas on equipment (particularly video distribution over IP) that people have used successfully in situations like this and whether adding an EA1 would work if HDBaseT is the better/only route.

If you just need extra cable behind each TV you can put a small splitter to get an extra cable.

Nope.  Just trying to get the second floor to join the first floor's C4 party. 

[RAV]

How many cats from first floor media closet where the Matrix is to the basement where all the TV drops are?

For the three upstairs....
Is it a desire to share a source so everybody plays the same together, or thinking it will save money not duplicating equipment?
Is it a bigger desire to have them all controled by Control4, less so share sources?
Is there sufficient WiFi available to those three TVs?
Do you have Control4 Zigbee Lighting throughout?
Do you have spare Cat in the vicinity of those three TVs that may be useful to add a Zigbee extension?

[mujtaba.khokhar]

You could use HD Over IP.... 

forget the matrix, seen as your from a networking background. you’d need managed switches too 

create 4 vlans (That’s what I do lol)

Main network 

IOT 

HD OVER IP 

WIFI 

Then just route all of your traffic and you should should be good to go. 

Look at binary or Wyrestorm benefit of HD over ip, is that nothing really has to be centrally located as long as you can connect it to a transmitter or receiver that goes back to a switch you’re all good. Also you have IR, Rs232 and audio outputs on each receiver, most Samsung’s TVs have rs233 (ex link) but IR is still very good especially as the drivers have discrete codes for on off etc, so if you wanted to do some “cool” programming it can be done!

Wyrestorm HD400 has built in scaling and Audio Downmixing too. 

this by far isn’t the cheapest option, but probably the most sensible. This will also allow you room for expansion. For example new Apple TV? No problem just add another transmitter and away you go. 

if you need more advice on HD over IP, PM me 

Thanks 

Muj 

[RAV]

One more question
What brand, and age or model are the upstairs TVs

 

[Bob Frapples]

2 Samsung, both about 5 years old, one Vizio about 4 years old.  I don't know the models offhand.  Ultimately, whatever solution I pick, I want it to be TV agnostic, since those will eventually get upgraded.  Thanks for the suggestion--I'll check the Wyrestorm HD400 out.

[zaphod]

Another option, as I mentioned on your reddit thread Apprehensive-Fox-712 , is VideoStorm Netplay it just works over your LAN without requiring dedicated ethernet runs. What sources do you care about having for the second floor TVs? If you only care about streaming services then it makes things simpler.

If you have IP controlled TVs and IP controllable sources (like Roku) then you don't need a C4 controller at the second floor TVs or any other hardware for that matter.  You could use C4 remotes or other C4 input devices to control the system from any room.

[zaphod]

And if you do need IR in the second floor rooms then there are a few options including EA-1s, Z2IR, Global Cache IP2IR or GC-100. Do your TVs today have IP control?  Whatever TV you buy in the future you should try to stick with IP control - I am guessing that you may not need top of the line TVs in the second floor so you may want to consider something like Roku TVs (made by TCL, etc) that are pretty cheap and fully controllable by IP with a paid C4 driver. And they have good mini-apps so it is easy to go right to Netflix, AppleTV+, etc

[eggzlot]

12 hours ago, Bob Frapples said:

Thanks!

You outline your system but not the issue you are experiencing. 

Sorry if that wasn't clear: the second floor TVs aren't part of the first floor C4 system.  They are standalone TVs.

is there a reason the system was designed with 6 tvs but a 4x4 matrix?  the sources in the 4x4 switch, are they not to be shared with second floor tvs - they have their own sources connected locally?

I am not sure why they designed it this way, or why they designed the EA5 to be located on the first floor instead of in the basement.  I assume they did it because it was easier/cheaper to run HDMI/IR because 2 of the 3 TVs on the first floor share a common wall with the media cabinet, and the third TV is only about 25 feet away in the next room.  That's not how I would have designed this network, but, yes, the way it is set up now, the 4x4 matrix is enough because the first floor only has 3 TVs and each second floor TV is separate with its own source(s) and not connected at all to the C4 setup on the first floor.

how many cat6 drops at each tv?

Just 1.  Unfortunately, there is no conduit to easily pull more, so running additional drops is going to be major engineering.  Assume that isn't an option.

what model TVs?  If they are TVs running Android you could put an IRUSB at each TV in the USB input and use that IR to control the soundbar if the soundbar has an IR receiver (not sure how those sound bars work).  

Samsung, but I don't want to depend on having a particular model of TV.  The Sonos units are connected via digital audio to the TVs and integrated into the Sonos network, so that part of the setup is fine.  I am basically trying to eliminate the local sources at each of the second floor TVs and get them integrated into the C4 network.

You could also sell the 4x4 and buy a bigger HDMI HDBaseT matrix or get a flexible/scalable Video over IP distribution system and that will give you extra IR at each location too.  

Yes, those are the two ideas I mentioned above.  With HDBaseT, though, I can't get to the first floor media cabinet since I don't have any direct runs to that cabinet from the second floor.  That's why my first idea was HDBaseT in the basement because I have direct runs from the TVs' drops to the basement, so HDBaseT would work.  I would need an appropriate EA director for that option.  Would an EA1 work for that?  To get to the first floor media cabinet, I would have to go with an IP-based video distribution solution.  That would certainly be more flexible.  All 6 of the TVs could share all of the same sources.

I am looking for ideas on equipment (particularly video distribution over IP) that people have used successfully in situations like this and whether adding an EA1 would work if HDBaseT is the better/only route.

If you just need extra cable behind each TV you can put a small splitter to get an extra cable.

Nope.  Just trying to get the second floor to join the first floor's C4 party. 

ah ok so you want those 2nd floor TVs part of the system

The quick answer is to get rid of the matrix and get an Video over IP solution.  Video Storm was mentioned, and as long as each TV has an ethernet cable that eventually make its way to the same LAN you are fine.  its suggested they all home run to 1 switch but its not required.  You would put a fire TV or Nvidia Shield at each TV and run the ethernet into those devices.  then off that device you would run an IRUSB to control the TV via IR.  I think your Sonos soundbars can work via wifi.

That would probably get those 2nd floor tvs as part of your centralized system.

[terminaldisclaimer]

You know can you run 100mbit Ethernet over hdbaseT right? Doesn’t that solve most of your problem?

[RAV]

Cheapest long term: replace the 3 TVs with good IP controllable smart TVs (sony, LG, samsung that's another debate).
3 SR260, at least 1 CA1 likely for mesh, or EA1 on any TVs you really want the GUI upstairs.

[zaphod]

27 minutes ago, RAV said:

Cheapest long term: replace the 3 TVs with good IP controllable smart TVs (sony, LG, samsung that's another debate).
3 SR260, at least 1 CA1 likely for mesh, or EA1 on any TVs you really want the GUI upstairs.

Agreed, but I am guessing that these are kids' bedrooms or guest bedrooms.  Why not go for cheaper TVs? Get TCL Roku TVs. Relatively inexpensive, full IP control, all the apps and you have all the streaming apps that you could want with no external boxes or source switching to deal with.  Good mini-apps for everything as well.

As someone mentioned you can probably use Wifi for your Soundbars, or you should be able to use Spotify connect to play to the Spotify client running on the Roku TV.

[eggzlot]

Im still trying to figure out if they need centralized sources for those 3 rooms (new matrix) or just control of the 3 rooms (IP TVs etc) 

[zaphod]

Yes, he hasn't been clear about what sources.  But if he has kids <25 that are in those rooms then I am guessing that they only care about streaming services, unless they watch sports.  But even some IPTV cable solutions have apps.