DSC Neo Security System With Smoke / CO2 Detectors

[ajd123]

Our system uses hard wired Kidde P4010ACLEDSCOCA SMOKE/CO detectors. 

I want to create different programming based on the type of alarm...

If there is an event, is there a way for Control4 to differentiate between the type of event (Smoke or CO)? 

It looks like Control4 only see's if an "emergency" is triggered.  Does not know what TYPE of emergency...

 

[Shoe]

You aren't showing what's possible on the actions side for your integration.

[South Africa C4 user]

7 hours ago, Shoe said:

You aren't showing what's possible on the actions side for your integration.

This - actions and variables available in the driver.

[ajd123]

12 hours ago, Shoe said:

You aren't showing what's possible on the actions side for your integration.

The three options for emergency types it offers me are "Fire", "Medical" and "Panic".

Nothing for Carbon Monoxide.  

If my detectors were triggered by Carbon Monoxide (CO) not even sure how the system would interpret that.

[Cyknight]

13 hours ago, ajd123 said:

Our system uses hard wired Kidde P4010ACLEDSCOCA SMOKE/CO detectors. 

No it doesn't use those. Those are 120VAC hardwired smokes, and are not part of your security system.

 

In general, if you wanted the system to react differently for differnet systems, you'd need to get the generic sensors added and tied to the alarm zones - at that point you can trigger things based on any (combination of) zones going off, or use them as 'IF' statements on the general 'system goes into alarm' trigger.

[ajd123]

14 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

No it doesn't use those. Those are 120VAC hardwired smokes, and are not part of your security system.

 

In general, if you wanted the system to react differently for differnet systems, you'd need to get the generic sensors added and tied to the alarm zones - at that point you can trigger things based on any (combination of) zones going off, or use them as 'IF' statements on the general 'system goes into alarm' trigger.

If one of the hard wired Kidde P4010ACLEDSCOCA is triggered by smoke, I get a call from the monitoring station / alerts at the DSC keypad / and my control4 programming for fire is triggered. 

EDIT: I don't think my Control4 programming for "Fire" was triggered, I think my Control4 programming for "Alarm" was triggered.  It would seem my system is not capable of executing automation for Smoke or CO given my current hardware configuration.  What would I need to add hardware wise to fix this?

[Shoe]

Get the Kidde smoke and CO relays and wire them to zones on your panel.

[ajd123]

32 minutes ago, Shoe said:

Get the Kidde smoke and CO relays and wire them to zones on your panel.

So I would just need 1 relay for smoke and 1 relay for CO?  Can you provide a link for the make/model/style of relay you would suggest?  Thx

It would seem my Control4 system can tell that it was a fire alarm (see Control4 History) verse a burglar alarm.  I must just have this programmed wrong.  Will work on it with my integrator.

FYI Zone 8 is a universal zone for all of my hardwired smoke alarm.

Since my Kidde P4010ACLEDSCOCA detects both Smoke and CO, either event will be registered as "Fire" on my DSC panel and Control4 system.  I do not believe there is any way to differentiate between the type of alarm.  If that is the case, I believe a Macro/Automation for fire would be the best course of action (for either scenario) in which the furnaces and all exhaust fans turn off.  Thoughts?

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, ajd123 said:

If one of the hard wired Kidde P4010ACLEDSCOCA is triggered by smoke, I get a call from the monitoring station / alerts at the DSC keypad / and my control4 programming for fire is triggered. 

 

Then all they've done is have a sound sensor installed, or more likely are using the relay off of one of them to trigger a zone in your alarm panel. Those units are NOT security sensors (as in for security panels).

You security panel doesn't know one from the other, or would it indeed know if it's fire or smoke.

I'm surprised such a setup even passed inspection: in most locales I've worked at, ANY modification to builder/electrican smokes in any way will not pass. Unless it was done after the fact, which could still void your insurance if they found out.

If it were me i'd have that checked.......

 

Within you current setup you will not be able to distinguish one from the other (Fire/CO) but you could get a generic smoke driver connected to zone 8 output, and us it to at least distinguish between fire and other.

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Shoe said:

Get the Kidde smoke and CO relays and wire them to zones on your panel.

And I wouldn't suggest that simply because if insurance found out they'd try not to pay out. And they have a habit of digging for whatever reason they can find.....

[Cyknight]

Get proper fire/heat and proper CO's installed to tie into your security system. Yes fugly ceiling clutter but sometimes design just can't trump safety....

[ajd123]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

Then all they've done is have a sound sensor installed, or more likely are using the relay off of one of them to trigger a zone in your alarm panel. Those units are NOT security sensors (as in for security panels).

You security panel doesn't know one from the other, or would it indeed know if it's fire or smoke.

I'm surprised such a setup even passed inspection: in most locales I've worked at, ANY modification to builder/electrican smokes in any way will not pass. Unless it was done after the fact, which could still void your insurance if they found out.

If it were me i'd have that checked.......

 

Within you current setup you will not be able to distinguish one from the other (Fire/CO) but you could get a generic smoke driver connected to zone 8 output, and us it to at least distinguish between fire and other.

In Ontario (Ontario Building Codes) these are the requirements:

·         Where must smoke alarms be located?  Every floor, including basement, in all bedrooms (Division B 9.10.19.3).  

·         Must be hard wired & battery backup (Division B 9.10.19.4) 

·         Be interconnected (Division B 9.10.19.5)

·         Include visual signaling [Division B 9.10.19.2(1)]

There is no requirement about monitoring or zones.  In fact, monitoring is not even required.

My insurance company asked me to add additional detectors to the following locations where fires are most likely to start, which I did via DSC Neo Wireless PowerG devices.

·         All mechanical rooms.

·         Garage

·         Attic

If I wanted to add some additional heat/smoke/fire/CO detectors:

1)      Where would you suggest putting them?

2)      Do you have any brands / makes / models you prefer?

3)      Are there any wireless solutions or just hardwired?

 

[Cyknight]

59 minutes ago, ajd123 said:

In Ontario (Ontario Building Codes) these are the requirements:

FIRE code likely states that no modifications or additions may be made to building fire alarm setup. It's debatable if feeding a relay out on those is modification - but that is where insurances love to dig in.

Of course they don't state that it needs to be monitored, as your (individual) components CANNOT be monitored.

That underscores the silliness (or perhaps more accurately constantly outdated state) of that whole code setup. That and that an alarm panel fire setup isn't allowed to replace that. At least they finally added the battery back-up requirement. For years it was (only) required for them to be hardwired - which as far as power goes is insane for life-safety (about a 5th of fires are electrical fires and those have increased risk of cutting power ...rendering non battery back-up alarms useless)

Anyway.

There are certainly fully functional wireless motions for smoke/heat and CO monitoring (with full 10 year battery) - and none of the standard security brands are anything short of excellent in them (they'd be sued dry if they were), so in your case, any DSC (Tyco) powerG unit should be perfectly fine.

I'm not going to comment on what to place where: I'm not comfortable to give advise of that nature in detail without being on-site. There's plenty of generic guides out there to give you generic advice on that: you don't need me for that.

 

[ajd123]

26 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

FIRE code likely states that no modifications or additions may be made to building fire alarm setup. It's debatable if feeding a relay out on those is modification - but that is where insurances love to dig in.

Like anything in life, you get what you pay for.  If you use a top tier insurance provider, you should not run into problems.

The OBC is behind in so many areas, but like any political machine it's hard to keep things current.  In the 1990s things changed or evolved over 5-10 years.  Now we are accustom to change in 5-10 weeks.  Really hard for the code to keep up.

33 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

I'm not going to comment on what to place where: I'm not comfortable to give advise of that nature in detail without being on-site. There's plenty of generic guides out there to give you generic advice on that: you don't need me for that.

Fair enough, I have a pretty good idea where to put them.

[Shoe]

Ok, checking back in on this thread. Let me try to clarify some basic things:

 

• OP wants events so he can create some programming off the type of alarm coming from two wire smoke/co units connected through what I'm hoping is a standard circuit interconnect.
• OP has an alarm panel that is already sending an alarm on smoke/co, but does not indicate the type of alarm.

 

You have a few choices:

• Change your alarm system and integration to one that alerts on smoke and co and provides the programming
• Add relays that enable alerts for smoke and co
• Do nothing

So, lets talk about the relay option. The big players in the smoke/co business offer purpose built UL listed relays for just this purpose. They are either smoke or Co. Kidde makes these and I suggested them because the OP has Kidde alarms. Using these relays are spec'd like adding another smoke to the circuit so you have to be mindful of the number of smokes on your circuit. These are not used in place of other alerting, but can give you alert type specific actions. Since they are relays you get to chose how to use them. It's actually useful to close a zone and then use the zone alert for programming.

 

 

 

https://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/safety-accessories/auxiliary-devices/sm120x/

https://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/safety-accessories/auxiliary-devices/co120x/

 

These work by sensing the alarm type on the interconnect wire. I also have Zooz ZEN55 Z-Wave sensors that can alert on Smoke, CO and Heat. I have not tried these on the Core Z-wave as I suspect they will not work.

 

I too think it's useful to program off the alert type. If a smoke alarm is going I disable programming for shutting off water. If Co is alerting ventilation is turned on etc. This is all secondary to actually alerting and alarm company integration. For that I have wireless PowerG smokes and CO's so they work when the power is out.

I assume everyone can make their own choices.

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, ajd123 said:

Like anything in life, you get what you pay for.  If you use a top tier insurance provider, you should not run into problems.

HAH. That's almost more opposite from the truth.

And no, that's not MY personal experience - among hundreds of clients of years there's bound to be a few insurance claims, and the ones that had the fanciest 'top-tier' providers had their claims 'advisor' dig the hardest to not have to pay (everything) out (of course they tend to be the ones that have the most to get paid out too).

That's not a knock on insurance companies by the way: I well understand that these are companies - in other words their underlying goal is to make money like every other company - and I've no doubt insurance fraud is rampant, but that does mean that for your own sake it's best to approach things like this with some care. Take my advise as you wish: it's nothing more than free advise,albeit based on what I've had to deal with (on behalf of others to date, fortunately so - and hopefully I'll pay my insurance fee to never have to get paid out for anything)

[Shoe]

6 hours ago, Cyknight said:

And I wouldn't suggest that simply because if insurance found out they'd try not to pay out. And they have a habit of digging for whatever reason they can find.....

It's actually a very common use. These are legit products built for this exact purpose. I think if they are installed by licensed professionals and follow local and whatever other codes they can be useful. I'm not an insurance adjuster or inspector. I do, however, work on local municipal building code. I agree with you that all bets are off when it comes to insurance companies. Since C4 is Global I wont even attempt to be an expert on laws and local practices. Use your best judgement and use a licensed alarm installer. To be honest I don't even know if C4 is allowed on a UL certified alarm system. Curious though. I'm hopeful.

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, Shoe said:

if C4 is allowed on a UL certified alarm system

Assuming you're talking about integrating an alarm system TO C4, then yes, C4 is nothing more than a alternate interface/extra keypad at that point. Provided the alarm system as a standalone follows all rules, ULC doesn't care what alternate/extra interface are there. To be clear, I literally had a chat with a local ULC inspector on this very subject two days ago

So no, you can't have a C4 keypad at the door (only the c4 keypad) and use that as a main interface, but the fact that your system can be used FORM and alternate interface isn't a problem as such (any more that that the company boss can have a 'regular' keypad in a commercial building, as long as there are keypads at all appropriate entry points.

 

Of course commercial/condo fire alarms are there own setup ALWAYS and shouldn't be messed with. Those are always done standalone anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Shoe said:

It's actually a very common use. These are legit products built for this exact purpose

So is driving in a hummer. You better check if your insurance covers your 15 year old driving it though....

A common use of a 'legit' product means nothing when faced with the small print.

 

A few pointers to those 'legit' items you linked:

-They can explain to me how you have a 'legit' product that combines line voltage and low voltage wire without full separation. Electrical code doesn't allow that.

-As they spec in their own documents, this is an unsupervised connection. As such it can't be used in any ULC setup.

-They also clearly state that this is NOT to be used as a life saving setup - so it would NOT exclude you from using alarm panel smokes and CO's in any way shape or form. That alone would make me NOT tie it to an alarm panel (though I can see tying it to a C4 sensor as an added trigger)

[Shoe]

Ok, a lot to unpack there. Do I understand you are cool with using those kind of relays with contact sensors like PowerG or Control4 to ether connect to the alarm system or Control4 to have events to program from?

[ajd123]

23 hours ago, Shoe said:

Ok, checking back in on this thread. Let me try to clarify some basic things:

 

• OP wants events so he can create some programming off the type of alarm coming from two wire smoke/co units connected through what I'm hoping is a standard circuit interconnect.
• OP has an alarm panel that is already sending an alarm on smoke/co, but does not indicate the type of alarm.

 

You have a few choices:

• Change your alarm system and integration to one that alerts on smoke and co and provides the programming
• Add relays that enable alerts for smoke and co
• Do nothing

So, lets talk about the relay option. The big players in the smoke/co business offer purpose built UL listed relays for just this purpose. They are either smoke or Co. Kidde makes these and I suggested them because the OP has Kidde alarms. Using these relays are spec'd like adding another smoke to the circuit so you have to be mindful of the number of smokes on your circuit. These are not used in place of other alerting, but can give you alert type specific actions. Since they are relays you get to chose how to use them. It's actually useful to close a zone and then use the zone alert for programming.

 

 

 

https://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/safety-accessories/auxiliary-devices/sm120x/

https://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/safety-accessories/auxiliary-devices/co120x/

 

These work by sensing the alarm type on the interconnect wire. I also have Zooz ZEN55 Z-Wave sensors that can alert on Smoke, CO and Heat. I have not tried these on the Core Z-wave as I suspect they will not work.

 

I too think it's useful to program off the alert type. If a smoke alarm is going I disable programming for shutting off water. If Co is alerting ventilation is turned on etc. This is all secondary to actually alerting and alarm company integration. For that I have wireless PowerG smokes and CO's so they work when the power is out.

I assume everyone can make their own choices.

Would these relays work with my existing setup?  The instructions show them installed on stand alone "smoke" or "CO" devices. 

If connected to my existing system, how would the relay differentiate between type of alarm? 

[Shoe]

The relays sense the signal on the 9v interconnect line. Smoke and CO have different signals so both relays are needed. They aren't expensive and are easy to test. If we had the ability to create Control4 drivers for Z-Wave we could build a driver for Zooz Zen55's which support the 3 signal types from one device. I will remind you that these relays do not work when the power on this circuit is out. The alarms will work because they are battery operated, but these relays are using the line power to operate. This is why I also have PowerG smokes and don't rely on the relays for life safety. They are just extra events.

Again, use your best judgement and use licensed electricians and alarm installers.

[Cyknight]

10 hours ago, Shoe said:

Ok, a lot to unpack there. Do I understand you are cool with using those kind of relays with contact sensors like PowerG or Control4 to ether connect to the alarm system or Control4 to have events to program from?

You wouldn't need the relay, and a contact for a door, a sceptic tank level etc isn't a life saving device you're tampering with.

[Shoe]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

You wouldn't need the relay, and a contact for a door, a sceptic tank level etc isn't a life saving device you're tampering with.

I'm not understanding that. I'm sorry. I'm saying wire a contact sensor through the aux to the Kidde relay. Meaning you just turn the contact sensor and Kidde relay combination into a wireless smoke or O2 event monitor. Does that solve your concerns or was your concerns simply wiring to the panel?

For example, I have the PG9309 PowerG sensors with the aux input. Its an easy way to convert a wired sensor to use PowerG. You could do the same with a line level Shelly or multiple other Control4 methods to use the events.

Or is your concern simply having the Kidde relay at all?

Since I've been clear this isn't for true life safety and it's just for capturing the event type I was just curious what you would be ok with. It's fine with me if the answer is none of it. Just curious.

[Cyknight]

11 hours ago, Shoe said:

Or is your concern simply having the Kidde relay at all?

Since I've been clear this isn't for true life safety and it's just for capturing the event type I was just curious what you would be ok with. It's fine with me if the answer is none of it. Just curious.

My issue is ANY messing with a fire alert system. You say it isn't FOR life safety, but:

-You're still altering a life safety setup (just because it's made by the manufaturer doesn't mean it's approved by firecode - or approved under inspection)

-IF you're putting that fire alarm into an actual alarm system it DOES become a life safety device (or at least becomes a grey area)

 

It's not something I would mess with for my own setup: and if I consider it unsafe for myself, I wont' do it for my clients either.

 

Yes you can argue that's an opinion, and opinions vary. Me, I'd want to err on the side of caution in this: and not (just) because of potential liability: because this involves saving lives.

For bettor or worse, I suspect a relatively speaking large number of my clients have been affected by fire (non, fortunately so, by loss of human life) - all but one were involved AFTER the fire happened, ie we setup added security for these people both for their own comfort, or to satisfy insurance agents for continued insurance -when you're insured for many multiples of millions of dollars, insurance doesn't work quite the same way as for simple old me.

Oh and yes the one that DID have a system and was our client were safe because we did have more than one layer of fire safety installed. Somewhat ironically, the building fire alarm didn't kick in until the fire department was already there because the room the fire started isn't required to have one by building code but we put one in there regardless.

Their new house has fire alerts as demanded by the insurance agents to be/stay insured going much further the what I'd ever recommend (to a really silly level if you ask me, and apparently my level of what I consider silly is much higher than others)

 

 

Make of my opinion what you will - just don't come crying to me when your (client's) multi million dollar claim on lost artwork (let alone property) is rejected because a non ULD allowed steup was used, regardless of what 'label' you put on that little part. You can come cry on my shoulder if there's loss of life: I'm not that mean, I'll even refrain from saying I told you so in that case.

 

Last bit: yes our client's claim was paid out in full. Really doubt they minded a few extra pieces of clutter on their ceiling in their full designer/custom architecture home in the end.

 

 

[Shoe]

Thanks. I asked for your opinion I like your edgy personality. Does make things interesting. I like interesting.

I found some online videos and picked one that sort of describes what I was suggesting. Insert disclaimer here again about using professionals and your brain.