Control4Savant

16 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Well - a constantly up and running controller isn't required - you need to use a laptop as a temporary 'controller' to do anything in unifi - vs the devices having a full web/browser based interface

Well..you can also just use the unifi app for cloud or local device set up. Mostly I just SSH adopt my sites to my self hosted server which is what I know a lot of more advanced Unifi “pros” are doing.  

27 minutes ago, bmdmike said:

Edgemax Gear has its own controller called UISP but is in no relation to the Unifi Ecosystem.  The nice thing about Edgemax is the controller isn't required.

A controller is not required for Unifi gear …. to be clear.

13 hours ago, therockhr said:

Anyone using edgerouter x and edge switch from ubiquiti? I see lots of people mention unifi but not always those products. Those seem more like what I want since I don’t want all the features of the UDM Pro. 

There are a few different ways to go about using Unifi stuff without a cloud key, UDM etc… just for common knowledge. There also used to be a preference for Edge gear since it didnt carry the processing overhead but we have surpassed that issue long ago. 

8 minutes ago, lukas.polivka said:

Also found this:

https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/56879/rmc-owners-thread-post-firmware?q=ip+control

(may have been fixed in the firmware in the meanwhile though)

Eh…as much as I love the brand i wouldnt count on it.  It has very primitive software. 

The only must have is a budget. 

Emotiva is VERY specific about the conditions/environment of their products in regard to warranty repair so I would caution using a 3rd party driver. I have seen their preamps have software/processor issues for odd reasons. The costs and efforts for them to make/compete in the AVR/processor space is difficult with all of the different licenses and codecs etc…. I use their amps in almost every home theater instal but I tend to stay away from their processors for some of those reasons. 

bump

bump

32 minutes ago, Anm3910 said:

Thank you for this really detailed write-up. This is exactly what I was looking for, and helps put into perspective some of the potential hazards of going my own way. I'd definitely be looking for support and so I think it might be best to go with the dealer supported brands (even if I end up going with a different dealer.) When I make a service call I want to be able to have the issue resolved relatively pain free, and it sounds like sourcing my own products could really hamper that. I'll take your advice to call around to a few different dealers as well and see if they have any more flexibility than the dealer I was working with. 

Copy on the speaker comments as well. Luckily, thats a conversation for later in the year, so I have some time before making a decision on brands etc. the prewiring is already all there.

Plenty of dealers do not support or use Araknis and will immediately remove it for their preferred networking so again, this is all just specific to how each professional wants to do their project. There is no… use product  ‘A’ so that dealers. 2, 3 and 4 all are ok with it as well…. I say this as one of those dealers. 

3 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

Hey everyone,

 

I've done a bit of digging on here and in the C4 subreddit. There have been a lot of good pieces of info to grab, but I wanted to make this post to hopefully get more (and more up to date) input from those more familiar with C4, since this would be my first experience. To make it clear, i'm pretty committed to using the C4 ecosystem, functionally it seems fantastic. I'm no dummy, but I just want something that will work without me needing to go in and tinker all the time, and it seems like C4 meets that need.

I'm having a new house built, should be ready in april, and as part of "Stage 1" I had the A/V dealer that's partnered with the builder drop a ton of prewiring and conduit into the house. He is also going to to set up the networking and security cameras for the house. Future steps will involve actually putting in the C4 controllers/screens, then audio, lighting/shades etc, so really the full package. 

I understand that there is a premium associated with C4, the dealer network, and a lot of the products/brands in the ecosystem. I understand this is all a "closed system" and therefore pricing and information is kept intentionally opaque from the public. I'm willing to pay that premium where it makes sense to do so. I guess what I'm hoping to get here is really an honest opinion of some of these products being recommended to me from someone other than the sales guy that stands to directly benefit from selling me more stuff. 

As an example, take the Araknis networking equipment I was quoted. The house is 2,400 sqft and 4 stories, do I really need four $746 WAPs? Can I tell him I'll just set up Ubiquiti WAPs for a fraction, and if so what issues am I looking at down the line? Should I really spend $362 on a 16 port unmanaged switch when Cisco sells them for $77. Do I NEED their $2,700 27u rack, or can I buy my own for ~$1,200. I truly don't know. What are areas where I can push back, and what are some areas where, for the sake of having the system "just work" I should just pay the extra cost. Even things like audio. They're heavily pushing Origin "because it works well with the system." Is that just them promoting a high margin product or is it actually the best tool for the job?

 

I hope this didn't come off as a rant; I'm excited about getting this going and I'm willing to spend money on the system, just not willing to throw money away for no reason. I'd be happy to go into more detail about the house, what I want out of the project, or the $80k quote I was given for the full package. Also open to PMs to get into the details.

 

Thanks everyone!

Yes, unless you do not want to/do not know manage your networking you can absolutely use Ubiquiti aps and 3rd party switches.. Do NOT let your dealer force you into an AV network brand twice as expensive that is half the quality just so he can have large profit margins. 

lol.. $2700 27u rack…

Origin “because it works well with the system” has no validity.  At the end the day it’s another compatible 3rd party AV brand with high profits that they are a dealer of. 

Equal profit margins exist and installation costs shouldnt change. Ask for alternative options. If they don’t have that ability the dealer is about profiting as much as possible. 

17 hours ago, LollerAgent said:

There are *tons* of reliability and picture quality issues reported with Sunbrite.  I'd rather not pay a premium for an inferior product.  What brand(s) would you recommend?  

I will say that Terrace models have better picture but I only deal with Sunbrite. I have yet to have any issues and even if I did, I use them exclusively because of Snaps epic service department. Id rather be able to talk directly to the manufacturer who also builds half of the other products being used in an inclusive system than a big electronics brands like Samsung. Seura also has the only 85”. 

35 minutes ago, zaphod said:

I just got a cheapo Vizio TV.  I crank up brightness to max.  It isn't great during direct sunlight but I will move my viewing position to deal with that, as best I can.  I have had that TV for about 9 years and it is still going strong.  I used to bring my TV in for the winter, but I no longer do that and it seems fine - I live in Toronto so it can get cold here.  Occasionally in the summer it will get some rainfall if I don't notice that I left it out.

I have also put a TV under my deck so that is viewable from the hot tub.  The only shelter that this gets is a deck, but it can be subject to blowing snow at times but the deck shields it from the rain.  Again I have something like a cheap TCL Roku TV for this as they are only $200 and if it dies then it isn't too much coin to replace.

*Backlight… backlight to the max. Brightness adjusts the black level depths. Contrast adjusts the variation between black and whites. 

5 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

I'm looking for a 64" 4K for our pool house.

However, the outdoor TV's are out of our price range. I was thinking of the 55" Terrace, but then I realized we're used to the 65" screen size.

I am not concerned about the TV being outdoors. I've had 2 TVs over the last 15 years - the weather is not an issue.

One TV is the Samsung - 65” Class QN90B. Anyone have one and can comment on sunlight and reflection?

I figured there were others who could recommend TVs that are in bright areas and can also handle reflection.

thanks.

PS.....  yes I know the outdoor TVs are the best bet.

Hisense U8H and TCL 6 series mini LEDs have 1000+ nit peak brightness. I have a TCL 75” R646 as my main viewing TV in a heavy lit room and it does fantastic. I also has OLED quality at night for just over $1k… 

3 hours ago, nxr said:

Thanks - i do plan on just using regular dimmers in the non common areas and I am debating between going with Lutron or C4 for the lighting. I have lived with another install that had C4 for control and Lutron for lighting (with dimmers bunched in closets) and it worked well. I’m going with third party keypads anyway this time (not palladium, which is why I chose Lutron that time vs C4) so revisiting the issue. 

I suggest you do Lutron. They have a variety of lines and budgets including panelized. You can even mix them seamlessly if you have a central system like Control4. It keeps you fully compatible but agnostic to whatever central home system you choose to ever have. You can use those proprietary C4 keypads for scene and other system controls. 

17 hours ago, Carter Hobson said:

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good (Relatively Affordable) AVR with Control4 IP control? I would be looking for two models, one 5-channel and the other 7-channel.

Thanks for the help!

This conversation needs a budget, speaker and zone info. Blindly suggesting models without any of that is really pointless. 

Intercom capabilities would be cool. 

7 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

That feels TOTALLY misleading..

 

"Not a Scalable"..

• Supports however many sources and targets you want.
• Uses Multicast which lets you send packets to multiple sources at once. This is managed by the switch. Even for Yamaha ProAudio using Dante, doesn't even need to be good: https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/proaudio/docs/dante_network_design_guide/101_network_switches.html . They don't need to be certified either (apparently, my friend is doing a gig tonight using Dante and TPLink)
• Unlike AVB, which requires special switches..
• It doesn't send 1 packet per IP.. It sends 1 packet, and the switch splits it. Efficient.
• Also, fibre
• Have you met our friend Dante? IP250UHD?
• DEBUNKED

"Lossless"

• IP250UHD? Those seem to accept some digital lossless Optical Input connector. Oh wait.. hmmm
• Oh.. And Dante itself is Lossless.
• Also, Dante can be routed straight to an amp.. Just like AVB... HMM
• They also make some kind of weird Digital Audio converter that works with Dante directly: https://www.blustream.co.uk/da22dig
• DEBUNKED

 

"Low latency?"

• How much ms do you think it takes before you notice lip sync issues? It's approximately 45ms apparently (16-33ms or 1 frame loss in MOIP, but in practice, that's probably between source and targets. The targets will likely all be synchronised if they're on the same switch).
• If you're using the IP250UHD, I might be wrong.. But I'd be surprised if they didn't use Dante for everything..
• https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/proaudio/docs/dante_network_design_guide/101_network_switches.html  For Dante, even high end Yamaha gear can run on fairly crappy switches well. It uses fairly common standards..
• Debunked

 

When you have that many zones it’s almost guaranteed to be needed. 

• Yeah.. You're absolutely right.
• That's why Dante is used in large studios where there are hundreds or more sources and such.
• The Dante standard is from 2006. AVB is 2011.  That's 5 extra years of experience
• It's also why I just asked to my friend who sets up all these studio's, concert halls etc. Guess what? Dante..
• If you check the use-cases, the use cases for Dante in one case talk about an event with 400,000 people in a single area. AVB, significantly less
• NOT Debunked.. But actually supports Dante slightly more. If we're making guarantees, pro equipment using Dante is the guarantee..

 

 

• Dante website: Yamaha, Shure, Allen & Heath, Presonus, Panasonic, Behringer, AVID, etc. Who are these brands? Over 4000 products use Dante apparently..
• AVB: They list Netgear and Cisco as their members. In fact, a lot of their list aren't even proper audio companies (unless companies like Realtek plan to get into the Amplifier business)
• I agree that it would be cool if Snap had more AVB or Dante products though (that wouldn't be a bad thing imho).
• Blustream only released their Dante gear 2 years ago. If the claims you were making about Dante were as clear cut as you claim, they would have gone AVB instead (particularly because apparently AVB has no royalty fees). So as a business case, they most likely discovered the opposite..

The reality is, both are good standards, and both standards have their own benefits. Both Savant and Control4 are good platforms, and in practice for residential though, both Audio standards are somewhat equivalent (but Dante has better latency actually apparently, and doesn't require special switches).

What are you debunking? I am arguing FOR Dante OR AVB and against the use of traditional matrix in large scale or shared zone applications. The differences and need of use are certainly not opinion as you just stated. AVB exists more in “residential” product. Particularly because of the royalties as you mentioned, it’s also licensed based so the need for specific hardware is only based on that. It’s also a network standard so yes i would expect networking brands to be involved linking audio gear together. Both require certain parts. Pro losses audio has a bigger need, been around for longer and Dante is everywhere in that regard. You can obviously use those 3rd party “Pro AV” products in a residential install, that wasnt my point. Im not sure of yours…

I didnt know that BluStream added Dante as I dont use the product so thats a good nugget of info. Maybe thats where the points got crossed ..

Neither are native in Control4 and that IMO is no longer acceptable when you talk about the cost of these systems and alternative systems do. Savant has 16ch POE powered AVB input and output matrix’s that are the size of 2 ea1s stacked. All of that is scalable, all independent of physical audio jumpers. To keep the focus on point, this is the stuff I WANT Snap to come out with. This is never about dragging C4 through the mud. 

2 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

You could also look at moip based one maybe like the blustream ones. They're a bit more expensive, but a lot more extendable

This is still not a scalable lossless low latency solution unfortunately. When you have that many zones it’s almost guaranteed to be needed. 

32 minutes ago, Hal-Dill said:

At my company we end up with a lot of projects in large new-construction homes with more zones than a single matrix can handle.

We used to use the Triad 24x24, but it's been discontinued (why??) and now we use the AV Pro Edge 24x24 - but we still sometimes encounter homes where we need more zones. I come from live audio, where something like Dante could be used to chain matrices together - but I don't think something like that exists for residential, unless I am wrong. (I'd love to be wrong!!)

Our standard practice in such a case is to split everything going to an input to two matrices - but that's messy and convoluted. A field technician asked me today why we don't backfeed one matrix out into a Core5 input, and then use a separate Core5 output for the other matrix. That, to me, seemed like it would not work - but I wasn't really able to articulate why in a way that they understood so I'm open to being fully incorrect on this.

What is the recommended practice in the case of multiple matrices? Does anyone here have a 24 zone (or larger!!) matrix that they recommend? The AV Pro Edge 24x24 is limited in some ways.

AVB is more prominent in the resi. market than Dante. Another reason I moved on from C4… 

6 minutes ago, dinom said:

Ah, makes sense. I’ll try this out soon, thanks. 

No worries. I love putting in JVC but they are a giant pain. Like a British sports car… 

9 minutes ago, dinom said:

For some reason, when powering off my theater, the JVC RS440 doesn’t always turn off (all other equipment like Onkyo AVR always turns off). Perhaps 10%-20% of the time it won’t work. Power on always works 100% reliably. Control is via IP driver. 

Is there something I can do in HE programming to check if power is still on after room off, and if so issue another JVC power off command? Would something like this work reliably?

Thanks.

You need to issue a few “power off” commands for the projector spaced by a few seconds inside of the zone “room off” command prompt. The command is being ignored while the EDID is disconnecting, it’s a notorious problem with projectors and JVC especially. 

7 minutes ago, House72 said:

Can you gain Siri functionality with the Control 4 app on iPad?

Your iPad has Siri functionality.  There’s nothing additional happening on the C4 end.

1 hour ago, ChzBurger said:

The screen on the button remote is not touch. The touch version (no number pad) is coming out 'Q1'. And is $900.

As a dealer you are the first line in customer discussion/education. $500 isn't free. 

Yeah it was a bit of sarcasm. I sell my smart remotes at cost because I think it’s absurd to pay $500+ for what is essentially IMO a TV clicker to my clients.  Control4 has a large beta program and dealer base and Snap is pretty much the leader of our industry in the resi. market. Part of my purpose for being on this site is debunk and filter the BS between pros and end users. I also no longer sell Control4 with new projects and use other solutions regardless of budget because of my own woes after 15 years. With that said…what do you expect dealers to do in this case? We dont control the releases and can only give back as much feedback as we can. Brands across the board constantly do things dealers specially ask them not to do. We have clients getting new product release info, clients desperate for updated products. It’s unrealistic for many pros to just switch to a different automation system on the fly just as it is for an end user.  I can understand being frustrated because of the cost and if you have a new system and this is the only option, that would be a bad design on the dealers part since all new tech releases are subject to problems in the open environments. I assume for the most part people still have their original remotes to still use in the meantime while updates are hopefully soon made. 

Would people here sacrifice the touch screen and still be pleased? 

15 minutes ago, Amr said:

Chill, it’s my opinion as an end user and yes on the greater good am very happy with my SR250/SR260 and my overall C4 experience, thats it am not on their payroll nor am a paid influencer, am sharing my enthusiasm for the industry and my experience with the C4 brand in a C4 forum!

Im not sure who you think is worked up? I answered a question, stated reasons and facts.