BDavisNJ

Can anyone who has integrated C4 with the IQ Pro security panel comment on the experience? Specifically, a) what driver are you using? (I see from the above a legacy DSC Neo driver will work; however, DSC support tells me that a IQpro-specific driver is on the way) b) any best practices or recommendations during the integration that are not immediately obvious? (the above comments regarding 6 digit codes is helpful) c) can PGM 1, 3, or 4 be manually set for "sensor reset" to accommodate 4 wire smokes (PGM2 automatically defaults, apparently) d) is an RM1/RM2 power loop relay required EOL on each run of 4-wire smokes? thank you

@msgreenf Thank you for your reply. Absent improved analytics, I struggle to see the use case for this product. I was really hoping for better detection, facial recognition, and license plate reading. I would pay for that. Even better would be a virtual guard service that a C4 homeowner could activate during vacations or time away from a specific property when unattended. SnapAv has potential for incremental revenue here.

@DLite @msgreenf A few questions, please, regarding Luma Insights: Is the region intrusion / line crossing and motion detection more accurate when using Insights as compared to the results when using the native (out of the box) features on the Luma X20 cameras? Can the region intrusion / line crossing and motion detection identified by Insights be used to trigger an action as defined by Composer? what is the relationship between Insights and Composer? Have you encountered issues when requesting high resolution snapshots from the Luma X20 cameras via API in which the timestamp of the image sent is from hours prior to the API request? this issue does not present when requesting low resolution snapshots, only the highest quality resolution. interestingly, this issue only started presenting about 2.5 months ago (curiously when the Luma Insights product launched; perhaps a firmware update inadvertently caused this issue) thank you

This board is a terrific resource. Hearing different perspectives and approaches is of tremendous value. In just under 17 hours @Time2Jet has three different approaches to consider with the pros and cons of each outlined. Thank you all for a robust discussion and have a great weekend.

@lippavisual and @Cyknight One of the many positives of C4 is that there are multiple ways to get to a solution. As long as the end user / homeowner is happy. The Navigator GUI from the thermostat driver is excellent and T4s will also permit HVAC adjustments. I, for one, strongly prefer the physical thermostat. Staff know immediately how to use the device, I am not glued to a cell, and remotes get moved about -- plus the screen is a bit small. Sometimes technology is best experienced in the background -- there is something rewarding about tactile interaction associated with traditional devices. But to each his / her own.

@lippavisual if you install temp sensors and remove the thermostats, how do you offer local control (absent a T4)?

@Time2Jet I also live in the Northeast USA and have encountered this issue. Here is my suggestion based, of course, on the assumption that you / end user do not want to open walls and want to minimize revisions to the wallboard. 1. In the boiler room, identify the hydronic zone controllers (1 for each zone of heating). These are very likely Honeywell branded. These devices will have 4 wires (2 black, 2 red). One set goes to the boiler, the other set (most likely red) will be connected to a wire going to the 2 wire thermostat. Leave the set of wires going into the boiler alone. 2. Disconnect the wires going to the thermostat. Connect these to a relay (see Note A, below). I used Functional devices model RIBRL1S because these are DIN rail mounted, have a manual override, and an indicator light so you can visually determine when the relay is on (helps with troubleshooting). Wire each relay to either a C4-IOX (Control4 IO Extender) or a Shelly device (I prefer hardwired). Note that RIBRL1S requires 12vdc. You can get a DIN rail mounted step down transformer (120vac to 12vdc). I also place a LED panel light on the transformer so I can easily confirm that the 12vdc power is indeed on (helps with any troubleshooting). 3. You will now be able to control each zone on the heating system using the relays and therefore via Control4. I created a separate "room" called HVAC and used a custom icon for each zone of heat (one icon for ON and one icon for OFF). Pressing the custom icon turns the heat zone on (closes the relay) and displays the ON icon. Pressing again toggles the sequence. 4. Now, we connect the thermostats because we have no intention of manually controlling the heat. Remove all of the as-built thermostats and expose the as-built 2 wires which run from each thermostat location to the boiler room. Use a meter and ensure that a) no power is running through the wires (remember you disconnected these in step 2) and b) you have affirmatively determined that each of the wires is correctly identified as the wire running from the thermostat location to the boiler room. 5) Install one unit of C4-THERM to replace each as-built thermostat. Set the C4-THERM to "powered" and not "power stealing" (there is a physical switch that needs to be set). Connect one of the wires to common (usually white) and the other wire (usually red) to 24vac on the back of the C4-THERM. Also put 4 "AA" batteries in each C4-THERM. 6) Supply the as-built 2-wire cable starting from each of the thermostat locations and terminating in the boiler room with 24vac. You can get a DIN rail mounted transformer (step down 120vac to 24vac) and position on the same DIN rail as the relays in step 2 (looks nice). I also place a LED panel light on the transformer so I can easily confirm that the 24vac power is indeed on (helps with any troubleshooting). Make certain to get sufficient amps to power all of the C4-THERM units. 7) At this point, all of your C4-THERM should be powered and functioning. Follow the instructions in Composer Pro to register each on the Zigbee wireless network. 8.) Using programming in Composer Pro / HE, you are going to create an action for each of the C-THERM devices (WHEN any HEAT CALL --> turn on (close) ZONE RELAY). And, of course: WHEN heat call OFF --> turn off (open) ZONE RELAY. The thermostat driver will provide the Navigator GUI with scheduling and other virtual thermostat features for each zone. 9) here is the best part. Many older houses in NE have central air that used a separate thermostat. You can now use programming to provide the homeowner with one single thermostat for both heating and cooling using the same logic as above. I hope the above provides a good starting point. The usual caveats and disclaimers apply: licensed electricians for line voltage, HVAC specialists if needed. I also would make certain that the gauge of the as-built wire is rated to carry 24vac. Given that thermostat systems use 24vac as a standard, I strongly suspect that the as-built wire will be sufficient. That said, better to check and verify than to assume. Reach out with any questions of follow-ups. Note A: Honeywell seems to have a dominant market share for the hydronic zone controllers. Most of these devices call for heat from the boiler when 24VAC is supplied to the 2 red wires. Thermostats simply act as switchs. Our goal here is to substitute the relay for the thermostat. Therefore, direct 24VAC to the common on the relay and then normally open (NO) to one leg of the hydronic zone controller. Wire the other leg of the hydronic zone controller back to the 24VAC supply. Make certain that your version of the hydronic zone controllers requires external power before wiring. Some versions (older) were self-powered.

@Windthrow One other item that I would add: make certain that your network is 100% rock solid. I strongly suggest professional grade APs (I am using Araknis WiFi6), managed switches, and run Cat6 / fiber before the walls are finished. Also, reserve more than sufficient space in your equipment room for 44ru racks. This will make set-up and review much cleaner. The managed switches permit efficient network troubleshooting. I had one defective cable that was causing a network loop (LAN latency 300ms). Once this $3 cable was replaced, latency tracked at 35ms. Without the managed switches, identifying this issue would have taken a long time and much frustration. The higher end APs permit multiple VLANs (one for IoT, one for principal / family, one for guests / staff).

@RAVWhere, please, is the download link to the Timestamp.c4i driver?

@South Africa C4 user pla see above

Yes. I had the same issue when I wanted to display a log entry showing the length of time between start and end for the zone of an irrigation zone. Use the Chowmain variable manipulator driver

@RyanEMy experience with C4 branded centralized lighting (C4-DIN-8DIM-E, C4-DIN-8REL-E, C4-DIN-8TV-E) and the KCB backlit keypads has been remarkably positive. The set-up is rock solid. And, of course, the integration is 100%. My only deviation from the C4 brand is my addition of BlackNova keypads which are in a league of their own. Once architects understand the expanded degrees of freedom for design afforded by centralized lighting, they become quick converts. A large room easily can have 8+ lighting circuits. With the low-voltage keypads, a single button creates a lighting scene using a combination of contributions from each circuit -- and the end user is unconcerned as to the technical complexities. The C4 value proposition is that automation "just happens" in a luxury setting; this is not designed to be a low cost offering.

I second @ajd123 comment. I have been having my dealer run a full System Report as a PDF and then using "search" and "find" to assist in troubleshooting. I hope this helps @Dave Fellows

to add to @cdcllc and @ChzBurger, I would suggest using the CA-10 as the backbone for a large residential project.

@Windthrow Given your use case, I would suggest 10 areas of focus: access control the DoorStations (the 2N devices) have a nice finish and permit keyless entry, event logging and efficient key management for staff and guests integration with the C4 programming is seamless security C4 integrates with a conventional security panel (consider IQ Pro) you can use Luna X20 cameras to trigger events in the C4 programming (line cross, motion detection) and extend you security perimeter well beyond the exterior walls of your house set push notifications to be activated whenever a fenced portion of the yard is breached this gives piece of mind when traveling check out Pulsor from Sure Action for precise interior monitoring HVAC you did not mention in what geography your property is located reduces risk of pipe freeze or damage due to high humidity general comfort Lighting whole house, panelized lighting (either C4 or Lutron) C4 KCB keypads for back-of-house or Black Nova for front-of-house reduces wall clutter hands-free lighting, scenes etc. Water monitoring / flood prevention reduce chances of water damage by mounting water monitors near toilets, hot water heater, irrigation system components, slop sinks, etc. we have prevented at least 4 incidents in the last 10 years that would have caused $25k+ of damage and inconvenience whole house water turn-off / on to automate flood prevention Irrigation Hunter Commercial line of irrigation controllers integrates well with C4 Key accessory integration exterior: pool, boat lift, dock, etc... interior: sauna, hot tub, etc. mission critical: generator (Generac tie-in) driveway gates landscape lighting Power management Shelly makes a Pro version of its PM (power management) line great for refrigerator, main power line, power line supported by the generator dishwasher, washer / dryer, floor heat, pool pump, sauna, hot tub, air handlers, etc. goal here is not so much to measure consumption but to make certain that devices are on when they should be and off when not equipment usage by hour for preventative maintenance Whole house audio We use a Autonomic MMS system (fully integrates with C4) this is likely the most visible (pun intended) feature to guests. Having music in each room from a centralized source is fantastic Remote controls for TV lastly, the Halo (Neeo) remotes and the more recent additions to the line-up are very convenient and a nice upgrade from those supplied by the cable company One consideration: C4 permits you, the homeowner, the option of directly accessing and adding / modifying the programming yourself using Composer HE. Although Composer HE is somewhat rudimentary, the functionality permits you to make changes and experiment directly -- no waiting for a dealer or contractor. This ability is a huge advantage over other competing systems. Use your dealer of record to add equipment (bindings) and spend a moment getting YOUR system to perform exactly the way YOU want. I hope the above provides a useful starting point. Good luck with your build.

@Versafel Systems@ejn1 First, thanks for the guidance on grounding / lightning protection for Cat6 cables that originate outside the house and terminate directly into a switch. I clearly missed adding the surge protection -- I am fixing now (you have got me worried that I am going to fry my networking gear). With respect to monitoring either a generator or a battery pack, I suggest using Shelly Plus One and the Shelly Add-on. Both of these devices are inexpensive and integrate well using the Chowmain Shelly Driver. The Add-on has a built-in voltmeter. I have a 17kg Generac natural gas generator. Natively, there is no integration into C4. Using 3 Shelly Plus One devices, each with a Shelly Add-On, I am monitoring the voltage on the red, green, yellow, LED indicator lights on the generator. When the voltage is above a threshold, I know which of the LED lights is on. I have a custom button with a "happy generator" for the green LED and a custom button with a red X for when the red LED is illuminated (an SMS is also sent). The above works great and provides confidence that the generator is being monitored at all times. The total cost of the integration is c$70 for the materials and no subscription fees.

@dblessingI second your comment -- not a hijack at all.

@C4 UserThank you. Your experience gives me confidence to move forward with the integration. Could you provide a link to any documents that detail the integration and the specific driver that you used (I suspect that you used the built in driver called IQ 2. Search for Qolsys, with the capital Q).

@Cyknight is anyone using the IQPro with Control4? I thought I saw a few users on this board recommend IQ Pro; however, the tech support tells me that the IQ Pro is not yet compatible with C4 until a new driver is released later this month? If anyone knows differently, please tell me what driver you are using. Thank you in advance

I have a tremendous amount of empathy for technology professionals -- especially those supporting forward-facing roles. How many times has a producer, after a massively profitable week, called a supporting tech department with thanks because no technology issues presented? Unfortunately, the answer is very few. The reality is a ton of very talented people are focused in the background permitting us to be unconcerned about critical infrastructure. I think this is a very good opportunity for those of us who are impacted to reach out to the business leaders / senior management of SnapOne and let them know that Composer HE is a critically important part of our decision to select C4, a catalyst for C4-branded product purchases, and a post-sale source of enjoyment. There seems to be a misconception that Composer HE serves under-capitalized DIYers who are buying castoff items on eBay. SnapOne leadership would be making a massive commercial mistake if it subscribes to this fallacy. The reality is that the high income, HNW / UHNW client base that can afford professional grade home automation systems often have common traits of impatience, a desire for operational control, and privacy. I have zero interest in being made dependent on a contractor's W2 employee when I want to make a minor adjustment to the environment of my own home. Yes, there are times when I may elect to delegate. But if a system forces me to wait or makes me hostage to someone else's schedule, that system will be in the rubbish bin -- fast. Composer HE is a competitive advantage for C4 over Crestron and Savant. Composer HE has provided a real-life introduction to programming for my kids and provided pride of ownership for me. Let me be clear, I like the dealer model. And my dealer has zero interest in programming many of the very useful tasks that we as a family have experimented with -- especially as staffing gets more difficult. All of these additional functions have led to thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollar spend on products -- which my dealer likes. There are several improvements that I would like to see to Composer HE. None of these suggestions involve granting HE the ability to alter bindings or add devices. Leave that to the dealer. Specifically (and please help me out so I can send a comprehensive list): edit and modify existing lines of programming code (currently revisions require an entire line (except compound conditionals) to be deleted and reentered in entirety) project-global search and replace (a version of Detective Suite); currently, I use a PDF version of the full system report in Adobe Acrobat to find specific lines of code the ability to see but not change bindings a copy and paste feature that targets selected lines of code a search feature in the Variable Agent In closing, I suggest that SnapOne look at the success premium brands have enjoyed by encouraging subsets of its user base better understand the workings of their products. Rolls Royce offers Factory Days that literately delve under the hood with a mechanic. MBUSA and Porsche offer track experiences. Range Rover has several company sponsored off-road adventures. This is not only fun for some owners but permits better appreciation of the car and strengthens the relationship between owner and dealer. My fear is that the Composer HE outage is less of an unplanned bug fix and more of a deliberate strategy to gauge the utility of the software. If you ask a tech user if he/she would object to removing a feature, most will instinctively object. Much more effective is to quietly turnoff the feature set and see if anyone notices or complains. I am eager to hear thoughts from others ....

@Cyknight @RAV Thank you both for your responses. From the above discussion, @Cyknight asserts that setting a C4-DIN-8DIM-E channel to Off/ON is not the functional equivalent of a channel on a C4-DIN-8REL-E1. And that the Off/ On setting is more of an accommodation for dimmable lights that the user chooses not to dim or a LED that is not dimmable. The question remains: is a 0-10v LED simply a LED that is not dimmable? I would never think of putting a high amp motor on a C4-DIN-8DIM-E; 100w of lighting is within specification. @Matt Lowe I used your suggestion. The line voltage is wired to a panalized dimmer and the binding hidden. The 0-10v binding is visible. Programming turns on the hidden light when the relay on the C4-DIN-8TV-E activates.

understood, thank you

@RyanE I also have a dimming question, please, and would be appreciative of your thoughts: When using a C4-DIN-8TV-E to control 0-10V lighting, the C4 technical documents outline two options to consider when separate on/off control is required. The first is a C4 Relay Module (C4-DIN-8REL-E1) and the second is external relays. This makes sense and our experience in using external relays is excellent. Our question, please: can a channel on a C4-DIN-8DIM-E be set to ON/OFF and be used in place of a channel on the C4 Relay Module (C4-DIN-8REL-E1)? If so, please advise on the Composer Pro settings so my dealer can mate the channel controlling the load on the C4-DIN-8TV-E and the C4-DIN-8DIM-E. Thank you

thank you. I appreciate the information.

Hello, under what circumstances would one select C4-DIN-8APD-E over the C4-DIN-8FPD-E? I read the description on both. I can not figure out the difference between the two (APD has some automatic feature and is UL listed). Any guidance would be appreciated.