Single audio end point. A real practical problem for Control4

[wappinghigh]

One of the major flaws in Control4 programming, or the way it can be set up is the inflexibility of always having to pick a single end point for audio.

I'm probably not making sense here because I don't fully understand the intricacies of why this can't be done (even though my dealer has done a great job explaining).. so I'll use some examples

Example one. The Linn/C4 and Sonos/C4 driver. When combining the Linn audio source with say a Sonos source in the one room, in programming, the dealer is forced to chose one volume control over the other.. This then remans fixed and can't be selected and swapped on the fly by the end user..

Example two. When using the Recluse Oppo driver, the composer pro programmer is forced to chose one output for audio into the receiver: either multichannel *or* HDMI. Again this is fixed within programming. The end user then can't swap say multichannel for music vs PCM for movie audio...

This becomes a real practical issue for the end user.

In example one. Sonos volume control becomes important when using Sonos as the source. So there is a need to be able to switch to this in programming when Sonos is selected as the source.. It seems this can't be done.

In example two. For music, multichannel analog audio from the Oppo is way better than PCM. But when forced to remain on multichannel analog for movies, lipsync becomes a problem with the Oppo. There is a different delay for discs vs say Netflix streams.. Again it's inflexible in programming if you can't associate independent audio endpoints.

Am I making any sense? This is darn annoying and the only way I have been told to get around this is to set up two "virtual" rooms within the one actual physical room...

So what gives? And is it possible to fix this in Control4 software with a firmware upgrade? Or is this a permanent constraint?

Edited August 25, 2013 by wappinghigh

[C4RVA]

Not sure about example one. But your second example could be overcome by making two instances of the driver and assigning one I hdmi and one to multi chann audio. Use one instance for movies and the other for audio playback?

[Cyknight]

To be clear - you can actually define up to 4 audio and volume endpoints - 2 for audio only and 2 for video's audio, plus corresponding volume endpoints.

Above mentioned option is indeed a good way to take care of example 2, because the issue there has little to do with audio or volume endpoints it's audio paths.

Example 1 is, however depending on setup, the dual audio/volume paths can provide the solution. Not sure why you would WANT the Sonos to do the volume, but I'll asume there's a good reason.

Assuming that the Sonos is fed to say a C4 amp, and the other sources are too, if you want volume control for the Sonos as a source - bind volume endpoint 1 to the Sonos, same for the audio endpoint (a bit of programming may be required to set the amp as well).

Then bind audio endpoint 2 to the same audio endpoint and volume endpoint 2 to the amp. This should force the system to use volume on the Sonos for the Sonos source, while using Volume on the amp for the rest (as Sonos isn't in line for the other sources to use so it reverts to endpoints 2.

But again not knowing your exact set-up means that there may be more at play so your dealer may well be accurate and the only reasonable way is to have multiple rooms.

These limitations are known - and are accepted simply because the advantages of the way the system tracks audiopaths etc outweigh the occasional time these limitations caused by it comes into play. Don't expect it to change any time soon as it would require a major overhaul of the system, one that could potentially mean reprogramming systems from scratch.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Cyknight

[wappinghigh]

^Thanks again Cyk. You are always helpful. And C4rVA. I'll investigate the suggestions further.. Cheers.

Edited August 25, 2013 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

^BTW.... Is there any way of simply copying the driver within a project? You know right click on it, and copy paste....

[ILoveC4]

Wap, for the volume control issues just setup conditional programming so that when you're listening to Sonos, the channel up/down buttons (or any unused buttons) send the volume up/down commands to Sonos. That way you can control both.

Think about what you asked for...there would be no way way to change this "on the fly". That would be confusing as hell.

[wappinghigh]

Wap, for the volume control issues just setup conditional programming so that when you're listening to Sonos, the channel up/down buttons (or any unused buttons) send the volume up/down commands to Sonos. That way you can control both.

Thanks for that. But I don't think this will work.

You see the problem arises should there be the need for "global" volume control of Sonos. That is via every device. Including existing Sonos controllers. When Sonos is plugged in as a secondary source into another product/amp/receiver whatever that *also* has volume control. (And this would be a very common scenario...). Once you set volume control on that secondary source you are toast with using Sonos volume. Can someone try this themselves for me? I'm going crazy on this one. I can't be the only one who's calling this as an issue....

Edited August 25, 2013 by wappinghigh

[ILoveC4]

So leave the SONOS set at an appropriate level. Why would you ever change it?

Also, I don't get why my solution wouldn't work.

[Cyknight]

You're not really going crazy - this is indeed a not uncommon issue when using something like this, or iTunes from a computer, or airplay via a phone.

Another example is having HDMI distribution and using speakers for those sources, but having a local source connected only to the TV (game console for example) that uses TV speakers

For many of these the problem is that source volume control is exposed via apps etc - there's no "hiding" those remotes.

When possible try to refrain from using any "source" volume control, but this isn't always realistic.

If the source has discrete volume and the driver has this option, you can also program on source selection to set the source's volume to x%, but again this is not always possible.

Or, do it the other way around - when selecting a source that has volume control, set the amp volume to x%. Room defaults can be used for this, but programming it per source allows for individual settings per device.

All of these are work-arounds, but changing how all this works is a MAYOR change that as mentioned would possibly cause issues of it's own - especially if this were rushed through. I imagine no-one would be very happy if a dealer would come to them with something along the lines of - "We can fix that volume problem you're having, but we need to reprogram your whole system - and it'll take xx hours to do so, so the bill would be......Oh and if you want to do any updates, it'll require the same reprogramming, whether you have these volume issues or not...."

[wappinghigh]

So leave the SONOS set at an appropriate level. Why would you ever change it?

Also, I don't get why my solution wouldn't work.

Thanks ILove...

Q/1 Why would you want Sonos variable volume, or ever want to change it? A/ So that the family can still alter Sonos volume *within* the Sonos environment... Yes believe it or not they have not been weened of Sonos direct control... Whilst I can switch back to variable cControl of the Linn preamp when I am streaming direct to Linn...

Q/2 Why won't your Solution work? I'll try it, but see A1/ It only sets up volume control one way....

Cheers

Wap

Edited August 27, 2013 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

I do not think Control4 is flexible enough on this Issue..

Definitely NOT

Particularly as Cyk points out with the myriad of other devices coming out with independent variable audio that are now being synced in with UPnP and IP drivers etc..

The more and more this is achieved via cleaver integrators and independent software designers, the more this fundamental problem with Control4 is going to be exposed...

Well if it *is* a fundamental conceptual design issue (as has been pointed out).. ? sure, maybe a throw back from a bygone era of volume and source always via the same endpoint...then OK..I understand why this is...

But the key question is, whether this is flexible enough for the future..???

And what Control4 intends to do about it?

And can they in fact actually do anything to sort this?

My Oppo requirements and Linn/Sonos combo case in point...

Edited August 27, 2013 by wappinghigh

[h_sqd]

I have similar issues on my system. I have incorporated TuneIn on my HC800 with all (other) audio paths from all sources being passed through as HDMI to my preamp. The TuneIn sources are 10 dB or greater than other sources, so it is a major nuisance to adjust. (They also vary for station to station.) The point is: it would be nice to have a static, but tunable volume preset in the code to trim out the worst of the imbalances.

For clarification, my system is run as one source at a time to an Amthem signal processor (preamp) to its three zones. My home is open, so I never need simultaneous sources.

Cheers,

h_sqd

[Cyknight]

Unfortunately (and annoyingly) the HDMI volume output is not adjustable (neither is the digital coax one). This does and always has existed on the stereo outs for "balancing" purposes.

[h_sqd]

Cyk,

So, would you consider it reasonable to split out the audio and run it through the analog path while keeping the video in HDMI? (I'm assuming I can get the Anthem to accept that.) Right now, I am only sending TuneIn out of the HC800, because my iTunes Library is still in the forbidden .m4a and .aif formats and I haven't splurged for an external player.

Cheers,

h_sqd

[SMHarman]

Cyk,

So, would you consider it reasonable to split out the audio and run it through the analog path while keeping the video in HDMI? (I'm assuming I can get the Anthem to accept that.) Right now, I am only sending TuneIn out of the HC800, because my iTunes Library is still in the forbidden .m4a and .aif formats and I haven't splurged for an external player.

Cheers,

h_sqd

You have an HC800. .m4a is no longer forbidden in fact if you look at the spec sheet it is marketed. You do need to add it as an additional file extension to the scanning.

https://dealer.control4.com/Images/Downloads/C4-HC800-BL-1/101502_RevA_HC-800_DS.pdf

Supported audio formats MP3: 32kbps to 320kbps, CBR, VBR, AAC, and FLAC

[Cyknight]

Yes you can just use analogue audio - but you need to remove the audio path from the hdmi or it will take preference every time (use a virtual converter to go hdmi to dvie thn one to go back to hdmi).

And yes m4a/aac works now - but they need to have DRM removed (which itunes store now is)

[wappinghigh]

Ok. So revisiting this issue and my two examples. And how do I set this up in programming. What can I tell the dealer to do within CPro?

Example one:

I have a Sonos controller connected into a toslink input of a LinnDS combined preamp/poweramp. Both are flawlessly controlled via IP drivers from EV. Except choice of volume. If I select "Listen>LinnDS", then wish to stream music thru the DS, obviously I would want to adjust volume using the DS. If my kid then comes along and selects "Listen>Sonos", then obviously they would want volume control using Sonos. And so on. But it seems this can't be done. Solution?

Example two:

I have an Oppo 105, and a TV connected into a Yamaha Home theatre receiver. Oppo and TV control via serial. And Yamaha via IP. Again great C4 control of all three devices. Obviously given the wonderful Audiophile properties of the Oppo105, when I select "Listen>Oppo105", I would want C4 to switch the Oppo to outpu 5.1 analog out and the Receiver to Multichannel in. The If I select "Watch>Oppo105", I would want to switch outputs/inputs to HDMI on the Oppo and HDMI on the receiver. Then If I select "Watch>TV", I want the switch to a different input on the TV (for Tv pictures) and PCM Audio output then switched to the correct input of the receiver. When I want to listen to music via the Oppo again, I need to switch back to Multichannel analog inputs again on the receiver. And so on. The Solution?

It seems both these easy to do programming requests just can't be achieved simply and efficiently within the one "Room" on navigator. If this is so, then why am I paying so much money for the worlds greatest Home Automation system?

And I truly believe it *is* the worlds greatest HA system...

Why haven't control4 programmers sorted this fundamental flaw within Composer Pro?

Edited August 28, 2013 by wappinghigh

[h_sqd]

Thanks, SMH and Cyk.

I did add the other file formats awhile back, but did not include AAC, but did include m4a. Now that I check it and rescan, it looks like everything is there.

Now I am a little confused by the fact that, unlike TuneIn, there doesn't seem to be an obvious driver to connect the iTunes Library on the NFS besides Digital Audio. (This is where I have the most trouble clearly understanding the connection functionalities at the core of ComposerPro.)

Any help there (like a pdf guide) would be appreciated.

Cheers,

h_sqd

Follow up:

After tweaking several elements and finally getting music to get all the way through the chain (and watching the display on my TV), I can confirm that .m4a and .aif song files are not being decoded by C4. Unfortunately, that is the bulk of my collection.

Edited August 29, 2013 by h_sqd

[wappinghigh]

Any help there (like a pdf guide) would be appreciated.

h_sqd

Yeh, me too

[wappinghigh]

^ So what feedback do all you dealers give back to C4 HQ on this?

And what do you hear back from the composer pro programmers as to where this is heading?

I ask again. Is it fixable within the programming core of composer pro?

Yes? or no?

Or do you end up just putting in expensive hardware switching?

We can't be the only end customers who notice this....

Edited August 28, 2013 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

^ ....the silence on this is deafening...

[SMHarman]

Thanks, SMH and Cyk.

Follow up:

After tweaking several elements and finally getting music to get all the way through the chain (and watching the display on my TV), I can confirm that .m4a and .aif song files are not being decoded by C4. Unfortunately, that is the bulk of my collection.

So an MP3 seen in Digital Audio, as can an m4a but if you select the mp3 you get an audio stream, however clicking the m4a does not?

I know this works seamlessly on my 250 connected to a Synology NAS folder in Digital Audio. The bulk of my collection is also m4a and the 250/800 was the reason I pulled the c4 trigger.

None of this is iTunes purchased m4p? If it is you need to go through the unlocking process, paying 30c a file $1 album and getting new m4a files.

[SMHarman]

^ So what feedback do all you dealers give back to C4 HQ on this?

And what do you hear back from the composer pro programmers as to where this is heading?

I ask again. Is it fixable within the programming core of composer pro?

Yes? or no?

Or do you end up just putting in expensive hardware switching?

We can't be the only end customers who notice this....

Considering that this is a problem for integrating Sonos and other proprietary closed systems I can't see C4 considering this a problem.

They would advise you to use their multi channel amps (in a wired environment) or WiFi endpoint and their audio solutions.

C4 has hardware for SiriusXM, Tunein and Rhapsody and pretty much all formats of digital music. Full control of a device with Songza, Pandora, Amazon Cloud Player, Spotify etc is easily achievable with the wireless music bridge.

http://www.control4.com/solutions#show-listen

In most install scenareos you have two volume controls where you have the ability to balance input levels. Effectively the Sonos volume control becomes a control to balance the input volume of the Sonos against your Digital Media and other sources, a set and forget.

The real problem is to wean the family of controlling Sonos directly.

An interesting blog on the pros and cons of Sonos

http://www.residentialsystems.com/default.aspx?tabid=90&EntryId=645

Edited August 30, 2013 by SMHarman

[Cyknight]

^ ....the silence on this is deafening...

Yes very

And as posted - the "proper" way to do this is using....the proper set-up and stop using "original remotes" just like you would for TV.

This isn't always full-proof (streaming you phone to an airplay piece comes to mind as you might use that phone outside the system) but it goes a long way.

Yes, putting in the hardware you need to do what you want to do is the way to go - and yes that may be more expensive. In the end such is life. You can't expect to cut back on cost and retain the same functionality endlessly.

Can C4 "fix" this - possible. Will they - possibly.

But if you want this and everything else right now - it would require C4 to poor even more resources into R&D, which would just mean that they would need to raise the prices - so instead of paying for more equipment, you'd just be paying for more expensive equipment.

The solution can also come from third-party hardware (yes more/the right hardware) - in fact VideoStorm seems to have been tackling some of these issues with their Netplay device - I'm waiting for my personal piece to come in to test this.

Yes, of course all these things get communicated back to C4 - as I said earlier on, you are not the first one, let alone the only one, to come across this - if anything dealers were.

Do understand that most dealers have no open, direct line of communication to the engineers that tackle this sort of stuff - our first "contacts" are reps and tech support. But most of us do not sit by idly and ignore issues - if we did, would we even be on here?

The dealer "community" as a whole is quite vocal towards C4 through the mediums we do have available. And I think these forums alone are proof enough that we are far from unwilling to communicate back to you what we can.

[turls]

Problem with that article is that there are different levels of Sonos and he doesn't really cover that. No, I don't want Sonos Play 5's all over my house but I do want a ZonePlayer or two as an audio source with an EV driver to control it. I think now that you can see your Sonos favorites in the EV driver it is relatively foolproof.

An interesting blog on the pros and cons of Sonos

http://www.residentialsystems.com/default.aspx?tabid=90&EntryId=645

Edited August 31, 2013 by turls