Remote Access to Control4 System

[Vahn]

Hello,

 

I have a proper and up to date 4Sight license. I am on 2.7.1506055-res on the HC800.

 

Until recently, I was able to remotely access my C4 system just fine through the web portal, Iphone, or Ipad. I am no longer able to access it.

 

There have been no networking configuration changes that I believe would generate the problem. The HC800 gets it's IP from DHCP on a static lease from the router.

 

My dealer thinks my router (or my router's use of SIP ALG) is the problem. I'm not so sure, since it use to work fine. He wants me to ditch my router and use a modem.

 

The problem with that approach is that I have Verizon Fios.

 

Verizon Fios doesn't have a modem. They only have 2 routers they support officially. I have the Fios Gateway Quantum (http://www.verizon.com/home/MLP/router.html) router.

 

This is a router that doesn't have a supported bridge mode (as best I can find so far via Internet research). Anything I do here might make it hard for me to get support from Verizon should have line issues.

 

I'm pretty confused since it "used to work" and I can't put my finger on a change that stopped it from working. Dumping gear and going to unsupported gear isn't a great starting line from my point of view, in a world where it "worked fine before."

 

I'm also having a hard time finding the requirements from C4 about what access C4 needs to the Internet. As best I know, I am not, and never was, doing any port-forwarding or DMZ like shenanigans, but it's also possible my dealer did it and I don't know about it, or I undid something they did without realizing it. 

 

Of course, I am multi-tasking here and I am am communication with my dealer.

 

I am reasonably technical and comfortable playing around with my Router settings if someone has any advice or has experienced problems with Fios and C4.

 

-V

[brucecampbell]

I had an issue sounding similar and it was as simple as turning on the option in the MyHome app 'Frequent IP Address Change'

 

under 'settings' -> 'advanced'

[Vahn]

Thank you for the suggestion. This didn't work for me.

 

On the C4 site, the last checkin was: 6/10/2015 1:00:04 AM.

 

So at least I know exactly when it stopped working. Why it stopped working, I'm not sure.

 

-V

[msgreenf]

Did you try rebooting your controller?

[Vahn]

Yes sir. It was the first thing advised by my dealer. It didn't help. He also rebooted it today. No luck.

 

-V

[Vahn]

This problem has been solved. Here is the executive summary version.

 

I had a Door Station and In-Wall Touch panel added to my station. This (apparently) uses the SIP protocol. This is very common for VOIP and video teleconferencing.

 

My Fios Quantum Gateway router supports SIP. Their is no way to disable it.

 

SIP in use by Control4 and SIP on the router were in conflict.

 

I put the Fios Quantum Gateway router in bridge mode. I installed a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter and disabled SIP.

 

After the HC-800 was re-registered, I am able to connect to C4 remotely.

 

Warning to all end-users/installers. If you don't have access to the Router and/or SIP can not be disabled on the Router, you are going to live this pain if you have a Door Station.

 

It perfectly explains why the date I can no longer access Control4 remotely and the install date of the Door Station/in-wall Touch panel line up. I didn't draw that relationship immediately as I rarely connect to C4 remotely.

 

It also explains why my Door Station stopped working shortly after install, but the problem wasn't discovered till later. You rarely ring your own doorbell.

 

-V

[thegreatheed]

This doesn't have anything to do with your Door Station. Yes it uses SIP, but it doesn't have any interaction with Remote Access. The installation of your Door Station and not being able to connect remotely were purely coincidental. 

 

The Remote Access service uses SIP to issue an invite to the controller to bring it online. Some routers try to be "smart" with SIP packets and manipulate them, which breaks the Remote Access communications.

[Vahn]

Hi,

 

I'm struggling with the assertion that "routers try to be smart with SIP packets" only because it's not specific enough.  

 

Keeping in mind the Fios Quantum Gateway worked, and then stopped working, and that the EdgeRouter Edge OS needed to have SIP disabled, really leads me to believe that it's not the router(s) doing anything horribly unusual, but the Control4 SIP implementation.

 

I have zero evidence either way, but many routers are going to "support SIP and try to be smart about it" and C4 integrators are going to run into plenty of SIP-enabled routers with no way to disable it to let C4 behave.

 

-V

[thegreatheed]

Hi,

 

I'm struggling with the assertion that "routers try to be smart with SIP packets" only because it's not specific enough.  

 

Keeping in mind the Fios Quantum Gateway worked, and then stopped working, and that the EdgeRouter Edge OS needed to have SIP disabled, really leads me to believe that it's not the router(s) doing anything horribly unusual, but the Control4 SIP implementation.

 

I have zero evidence either way, but many routers are going to "support SIP and try to be smart about it" and C4 integrators are going to run into plenty of SIP-enabled routers with no way to disable it to let C4 behave.

 

-V

You are correct that the Control4 implementation may be different than the standard usage of SIP.

That doesn't change my assertion or the facts of the case. Remote Access is not doing any VOIP, but it uses SIP to establish the communication. Your door station had no interaction with getting Remote Access to work.

 

C4 integrators do run into SIP-enabled routers that simply cannot be used when the client wants Remote Access. That's why C4 publishes an approved networking hardware list .

[Vahn]

I appreciate what you are saying. I'm not in denial.

 

It is completely possible that Fios pushed updates to the routers that changed the way the Quantum Gateway deals with SIP, or enabled it by default. It's completely possible that this happened in the time frame that I last used Remote Access successfully before my Door Station was installed.

 

It's possible, but one hell of a conindence. From the C4 web site I was able to infer when remote connection stopped working. From my paperwork, I know when the Door Station was installed.

 

And, I  can't find any evidence that supports that Fios updated the router and I know I didn't update it. I've spent a good amount of time looking and researching the Fios rollout updates and their are entire threads dedicates to watching every move Fios makes with the network.

 

Remote Access (before installing the door station) worked reliably, 100% of the time before I had the door station installed.

 

It stopped working after.

 

That's where my theory-crafting is coming for. Not that the Door Station itself is a problem, but that the addition of the Door Station and thus the addition of a SIP device THEN created a situation too complicated for the router which caused Remote Access and the Door Station to no longer function.

 

When the installers left that day, the Door Station was working. But I was at home, so I wasn't trying to connect remotely and didn't think to check or test that was still working.

 

It was only many days later that I tried and couldn't. The Door Station stopped working as well. I also don't know exactly when. You don't ring your own doorbell. I only knew it stopped working through dumb luck of having a visitor call me from the Front Porch asking me why I didn't answer the door.

 

The real issue here for me is really about your last note. Yes, C4 publishes an approved networking hardware list. But it's absurdly small.

 

Their are far more routers, networking switches, and wireless access points available in the world, of significantly higher quality, than what is available in the C4 approved list. C4 is not equipped to test and publish a solid list. It's a list of "what they know about that works" and not "what works."

 

People who are be into this line of C4 have other networking needs that the approved list can't cover, especially if you are doing any sort of point to point VLAN with your office or anything other than your typical home Internet situation. Some of the information is so dated, that the firmware for the list is ancient in Internet time.

 

C4 should be more forthcoming with how the product works with owners, and not just dealers. Rather than say, here is a short list of (somewhat crappy in some cases) routers we know work here, the list should be here is a list of products we know work and here is list of protocols and ports in use by C4 so you can do what you need to do.

 

Of all the dealer-model home automation-products, C4 is my favorite. They are more open and have better literature than everyone else. And I have personal experience with Savant and Crestron systems.

 

Yet, they should finish what they started with the transparency. I shouldn't have to be a dealer to understand exactly how the product works. My dealer is open with me. But, he isn't a network engineering and nor is anyone on his staff. I have one of those on the payroll at my company, so I'm fortunate enough to be able to ask him to help me with my personal networking situation.

 

I get it. I'm probably not the atypical customer. I'm sure many people want it to "just work" and not think about. I want to know HOW and WHY it works (or doesn't). I want to understand what's happening with Control4 and my network. It's not unreasonable. They have all or most of this information. It's just hidden behind the Dealer login button. 

 

I don't want to disparage dealers and especially mine. I have high praise for BCG|Concepts and I'm very happy with them, but no dealer is going to care about your home more than the home owner.

 

-V

[Cyknight]

Their are far more routers, networking switches, and wireless access points available in the world, of significantly higher quality

 

Sure - but C4 checks the COMMON ones that are widespread. Many 'significantly higher quality' is an opinion, and while I agree, C4 tries -and does a pretty decent job of- testing the readily available to all ones and lets dealers know which one to use, not use or what settings to change. The list works very well for any dealer doing a small job (anything under 40/50k dollars worth of gear (excluding sources and TVs) for example, though the size of a job depends more on the type of equipment than the dollar value). And that's what that list is aimed at.

 

The problem is not C4 - if your or any system for whatever reason requires a more advanced networking setup - your DEALER should make sure he can handle it before he even takes the job. Very many dealers are not network specialist of any degree. Whether they should or shouldn't be is a whole other level of discussion - but it's those people that that list is aimed at, not those of us who don't need to be held by the hand to setup a proper network.

 

C4 shouldn't have to do more than they do now at any rate - offer a handful of solutions that work across the board - if they were to go through every possible option out there, the list would only grow into an unusable database to begin with that would likely 'scare' those that need it the most off from consulting it.

 

In your particular situation - your ISP's POS should have never been acting as a (system) router to begin with (indeed - THAT is a problem ISPs are creating - wish they NEVER started offering combo units in the first place), which your dealer should know (as it's another C4 recommendation - and probably the best and most important one they have).

 

On the subject itself, C4's SIP is ... SIP. There is nothing that I'm aware of in the implementation that is liable to cause random issues elsewhere. However, it IS entirely possible that because they use SIP, the router you had enabled(or took out of idle) a service automatically (SIP ALG) that WOULD indeed cause issues with remote access - so in that sense the install of the doorstation may have 'caused' the remote access issue.

 

Oh and router makers getting 'smart' is something I read as sarcastic - because it usually means they try do 'cleverly' (sarcasm alert) implemnt something the cheapest way possible. Even if that isn't the case - you could consider automatically turning on SIP settings if it detects SIP devices 'smart' - but the router running SIP (regardless of you having doorstations, intercom screens etc) is a known item that creates problem with remote access.

 

Too smart for the user's own good?

[Vahn]

Fair enough. I truly appreciate the dialog, point of view, and discussion.

 

It's wishful thinking. I know that. It's lamenting. Maybe even whining. I know that.

 

I just want more access and more exposure to C4 knowledge-base. It would make me a better owner. I want the same (or similar) access as the dealers. It makes perfect sense why I don't have it.

 

I actually fully believe you that the C4 carefully crafted their list of approved equipment to appeal to the lowest or average common denominator of dealer doing the average job size.

 

I would literally pay a monthly or annual service fee, and take online classes to qualify for such, to be put into a different category of Control4 owner that isn't a reseller/dealer, but is a power-user with additional access to Composer Pro (minus the ability to add/remove devices or whatever they feel is needed to protect the dealer).

 

I'm not trying to start a new dealer-model flame thread.

 

But, if anyone from C4 is listening, we are out here. We are not the average owner. We are power-users. We have technical literacy. In some cases, depending on the item, more technical literacy than our dealer (or his staff.)

 

I doubt their are many of us. I'm sure it's hard to envision a product for us. But, please, take my money. Let me in. If I understand the system better I will have even more confidence in the product. I will expand what I am doing.

 

I don't know where my system falls as it relates to the average dealer install in terms of equipment, but I'm not fracking around either.

 

• Video sources: 3 DirectTvs, 2 Apple Tvs, Security NVR, Blu-Ray on Video Matrix going to Family, Outdoor TV, Master, and Office 
• Multiple game consoles in 2 rooms hanging off Denon's with 5.1 (rooms not good for 7.1, don't judge me)
• Audio sources: 2 Sonos, and the C4 stuff like ListenIn and Music library via ReadyNas on the network for speaker in Living, Master, Family, Kitchen, Dining, Patio, and C4 Crown Amp powering 4 speakers for the Pool/Spa area
• Panelized Lighting with Wired Keypads in all major rooms (Living, Family, Dining, Kitchen, Master, Entry Hall) and Outdoor sconces
• All other bedrooms, rooms and all closets, laundry, and garage all Wireless Keypad
• Half dozen Wireless Outlet Dimmers for Table and Floor lamps in hallways, Family, 2 Guest bedrooms, and master bedroom
• Motion/Occupancy sensors in all closets, all bathrooms, Laundry and Garage
• 2 Nests thermostats (upstairs/downstairs)
• Pool/Spa integration via Jandy
• 5 Wirepath outdoor cameras on Wirepath NVR
• Garage access kit
• Door Station and in-Wall C4 Touch screen
• 2 Zigby Wifi extenders (just added) to keep this entire thing working / my poor Table/Floor lamps on Wireless Outlet dimmers weren't very dependable

I have to be close to the 6 figure mark with my C4, all the components, and labor. I'm a frequent flyer. I want VIP status and access to the business lounge. 

 

(I sound like an entitled brat, I know!)

 

-V

[kajphotos]

I had the Same problem with the exact setup fios and the new router my dealer did his homework and found that after a forced fios router update caused a funny Dhcp conflict. Witch the hc 800 don't like the the DHCP scope log into your fios router and change your DHCP scope to 192.168.0.101 and 192.168.0.151. And the ip to 192.168.0.1 the subnet stays at 255.255.255.0 hope this helps .. It worked for me keep me posted

[Cyknight]

I don't know where my system falls

'Tall' in starbucks terms.

 

Mind you the 'average' is something you're likely slab dab in the middle in - but that is my point - your system would run perfectly fine n the higher end routers C4 recommends (and not on setups like C4 discourages, such as using combo units from your ISP).

[Vahn]

'Tall' in starbucks terms.

 

Mind you the 'average' is something you're likely slab dab in the middle in - but that is my point - your system would run perfectly fine n the higher end routers C4 recommends (and not on setups like C4 discourages, such as using combo units from your ISP).

 

I don't even disagree with you. It's just that if you want Fios AND you want to be supported by Fios, you don't have a choice. Both the supported routers are combo units. Both can be bridged, but it takes some work and is unsupported.

 

I live in Los Angeles and have Time Warner Roadrunner or Verizion Fios and perhaps some DSL choices before you get into the really big bucks. Some people are less fortunate, and have even less choices or are either not interested or technically not competent enough (or their dealer) to get the provided combo routers/modems to bridge.

 

I'm not even mad. I'm over the 3 days it took to learn how to bridge the router and get the Unfi Edge router set-up correctly. I'm over the extra costs I wasn't anticipating. It makes sense to me that I am pushing into territory and network requirements beyond the Fios Quantum Gateway router.

 

But, I don't think it's unreasonable to lay some of this at the feet of Control4 for how they use SIP for remote communication and how quick they are to punt on 3rd down and say "it's your router" and not "it's your router because ______________."

 

I'm not a C4 product or engineering manager. I'm not doubting the choices they made. I'm not qualified.

 

What I am calling into question is the 2-page white paper that blames other manufactures, instead of a 2 page white paper that explains C4 requirements in a clear way that isn't just finger point at a combo modem/router. Because in the real world, C4 is dwarfed by dozens of dozens of router, switch, and wireless access point manufactures, devices, and firmware versions and will never, ever, be able to keep up.

 

That doesn't seem unreasonable, nor does it seem unreasonable for me to ask C4 to be more forthcoming on HOW the products work, not just a list of WHAT they work tested in a (probably small and lightly staffed) compatibility lab.

 

I make software for a living. Compatibility across devices and firmware versions is a ballache. Transparency is key, which allows the user communities like this one to help themselves. Not once did these forums tell me that SIP was likely my problem.

 

That took my dealer, on-site, and on the phone with C4, remotely accessing my system.

 

I could have disabled SIP and saved everyone money and time by hour 2 into my troubleshooting had I know. I would of known because I have access to better/more information on the web portal. Or, others who have piled through all the literature had done so.

 

All the above makes me sound ungrateful. I am not. I just want to be as informed as humanly possible for my technical level.

 

-V

[Cyknight]

If required, it's entirely possible to use the fios router as 'a' router and slave a system router off of it - bridge is preferable, but there are methods available.

I'm unfamiliar with your territory specifically, but here the units can be set to use two different house IP addresses with one port set as a bridged pas-thru to a second router. Alternatively, the fios router should support a DMZ address and you'd set the 'slave' to that static IP and your router shouldn't touch any of the traffic.

 

One of these two setups is a requirement here too for one of the TV/internet providers' "optic" offering.

[thegreatheed]

 

 

But, I don't think it's unreasonable to lay some of this at the feet of Control4 for how they use SIP for remote communication and how quick they are to punt on 3rd down and say "it's your router" and not "it's your router because ______________."

 

 

 

http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Routers+SIP+ALG

 

"Many of today's commercial routers implement SIP ALG (Application-level gateway), coming with this feature enabled by default. While ALG could help in solving NAT related problems, the fact is that many routers' ALG implementations are wrong and break SIP."

 

This doesn't just affect C4 gear. It's very much "it's your router" in this case.

[Vahn]

If required, it's entirely possible to use the fios router as 'a' router and slave a system router off of it - bridge is preferable, but there are methods available.

I'm unfamiliar with your territory specifically, but here the units can be set to use two different house IP addresses with one port set as a bridged pas-thru to a second router. Alternatively, the fios router should support a DMZ address and you'd set the 'slave' to that static IP and your router shouldn't touch any of the traffic.

 

One of these two setups is a requirement here too for one of the TV/internet providers' "optic" offering.

 

 

I'm fine now, because the Verizion Fios Quantum Gateway is a pure bridge and not doing anything. The EdgeOS Router is doing all the work and has the SIP conntrack module disabled.

 

If their was a way to disable SIP on the Verizon Fios Quantum Gateway, I never figured it out. I also didn't try that hard since Control4 doesn't want us to use combo units. I did some searching on the Internet. I looked around my the admin GUI.

 

I was quick to pull the tricker on the EdgeOS Router, since my network is getting more complex every month and was too involved and C4 technically isn't happy about combo/gateway routers.

 

Just so I'm clear, I just making conversation at this point.

 

My problem is technically resolved. My Door Station works. Remote access works.

 

My problem was solved by bridging my Fios Quantum Gateway Router, installing an EdgeOS Router, disabling SIP on it, and re-registering the controller.

 

-V

[Vahn]

"Many of today's commercial routers implement SIP ALG (Application-level gateway), coming with this feature enabled by default. While ALG could help in solving NAT related problems, the fact is that many routers' ALG implementations are wrong and break SIP."

 

This doesn't just affect C4 gear. It's very much "it's your router" in this case.

 

Even the EdgeOS community agrees with you and that they frequently advise disabling the SIP module if you have SIP devices. That doesn't make it any less mind-boggling.

 

-V

[C4Blimp]

I can no longer use 4Sight remotely.  Worked for awhile then stopped.  Works fine when on my own wireless network, doesn't work when on 4G.  If I reload the phone app (Control4 for Android) it works well.  After a few days or so, back to not connecting to system.  Authentication and finding system steps pass but not connection.

[Vahn]

This could be lots of things. Here are some things things to look into it.

 

If you go to the web portal for owners when NOT on your own network can you connect?  That would narrow it down to a problem with the connection to your C4 or a problem between the AP and your wireless phone carrier.

 

Other things to look at/consider:

 

• What is your router and can SIP be disabled on it. If you post your router name, model, and firmware version any of should be able to Internet research that
• In the C4 app (I have an Iphone so I'm not sure about Android and am making an assumption) has a setting that many have used successfully. It's in Preferences > Advanced > Frequent Ip Change.
• Consider deleting the AP and all the data associated with it and starting from scratch (long shot, but genuinely harmless)

-V

[Cyknight]

I can no longer use 4Sight remotely.  Worked for awhile then stopped.  Works fine when on my own wireless network, doesn't work when on 4G.  If I reload the phone app (Control4 for Android) it works well.  After a few days or so, back to not connecting to system.  Authentication and finding system steps pass but not connection.

Did you try going to settings - advanced settings an turning on the ip setting in there?

[C4Blimp]

^Turned it on.  We'll give it a week and see what happens.  Thank You!

[control4user007]

Does anyone have any trouble getting web navigator to connect remotely?  I can access my house via the c4 app, but have not been able to get the web navigator to work (and since its the web navigator, i don't know how to get any log files to see what the problem is).

[Vahn]

^Turned it on.  We'll give it a week and see what happens.  Thank You!

 

FYI - It shouldn't take a week to know if this is working for you or not. Having just lived (and eventually solved at the cost of 3 days and a new router) this problem, if this isn't helping you almost immediately, we should look elsewhere.

 

-V