wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 We live in an uncertain, random, unpredictable world. And the IoT is just going to make it worse What Control4 needs to do is accept this. They need to accept that their dealer network will not be able to sort every and all of their customers network problems 24/7. This is a failed approach IMHO. So they need to lock down the primary controller running director and make it as bullet proof as possible. That thing is now running many critical services in houses..so make it as robust as possible. It should be the LAST thing standing on a network. It should be able to run critical zigbee services and the like by itself. Without even a formal home network running at all.. It should never be allowed to crash. Under any circumstances. And they need to provide clear manuals. Ideal Network setup's, Router security settings and the like to us, so end users know the do's and don'ts with their platforms and networks. This does not have to mean handing out pro. What it does mean is cutting us some slack and accepting dealers can not be expected to sort EVERY network issue out by this "dealer monitors the house 24/7 approach". It aint going to happen.. Dealer's need a rest from us. Well people like me anyway! LOL Enjoy the rest of the year Folks and happy 2017 Good luck with the Presidential election Rock on C4! W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gix656 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 This is virtually impossible. To many variables to these systems. Especially when it comes to networking. There is lots of equipment out today that help to monitor networking and power management. If dealers take the right approach and educate the client about the importance of this management equipment, you can make most systems much more stable and reliable. I am a dealer, we use this management equipment on most of our installs. We have been able to fix 95%+ of issues remotely and sometimes even before the client even knows there's an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Who do you want to give YOU how to's? Remember, everyone is here for free... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D - Benn Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 C4 outlines preferred network setups and known compatible products on the dealer portal. As Gix said, anything beyond that is just way too specific. If the dealers done his/her job correctly then there shouldn't be a need for an end user guide outlining "Ideal network setup" and as stated, there is already this documentation for dealers available during the installation. End user network modifications wouldn't normally effect C4 unless you were specifically disturbing an integrated device or one of the processors directly. As far as I'm concerned End user fault finding consists of rebooting the device and nothing more. If I suspected there to be a network fault I would not ask any of my clients to start investigating it even if there was end user documentation. I appreciate why end users that are network minded would find It handy though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Benn Howard said: C4 outlines preferred network setups and known compatible products on the dealer portal. As Gix said, anything beyond that is just way too specific. If the dealers done his/her job correctly then there shouldn't be a need for an end user guide outlining "Ideal network setup" and as stated, there is already this documentation for dealers available during the installation. End user network modifications wouldn't normally effect C4 unless you were specifically disturbing an integrated device or one of the processors directly. As far as I'm concerned End user fault finding consists of rebooting the device and nothing more. If I suspected there to be a network fault I would not ask any of my clients to start investigating it even if there was end user documentation. I appreciate why end users that are network minded would find It handy though! You see with all due respect, this is where the "control" mentality of the Control4 dealer gets beyond belief in my opinion. 1/ You assume a (future) Control4 customer doesn't already have an extensive network in place. I for one got into Control4 via a 10 zone Sonos network. That was precisely the attractiveness of the Control4 product to me..(seeing the potential of similar network controlled "zones"). In fact it was the upcoming Sonos<>C4 driver that got me heavily into Control4 in the first place! 2/ You assume said (future) customer is going to happily throw away thousands of dollars of network gear and all the learning and toil of setting up their own network, buy yours and just pretty much "hand over" the control of their entire house (a rather private and personal abode I should add) to a business person who they might hardly know..and may not even be in business in future years? 3/ You assume people who decide to purchase Control4 gear know nothing about networks at all ( I beg to differ and would think most know something) That's probably why they contact you as a dealer in the first place. Maybe even why the give you the sale? 4/ You assume we don;t have concerns about privacy and autonomy of our own houses? 5/ You assume we don;t have a natural desire to learn about our own products? 6/ You assume customers might not want to add other networkable gear or other software network drivers (outside the Control4 platform) that has nothing to do with you as a Control4 dealer. etc etc ad infinitum Why is all this network information just on the dealer site? Like I said sure. Control4 might have license restrictions on Composer Pro (which is fair enough)... but where is there any intellectual property about what networks and equipment should be suitable to develop an automated home? I'm sorry. .. But I just do not understand this mentality of thinking. It's OUR system. And OUR home. Adios & Cheers W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 1 hour ago, msgreenf said: Who do you want to give YOU how to's? Remember, everyone is here for free... Put it all on this public forum (See explanation why above) Who knows It might actually dramatically increase dealer business. Adios W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 8 hours ago, Gix656 said: This is virtually impossible. To many variables to these systems. Especially when it comes to networking. There is lots of equipment out today that help to monitor networking and power management. If dealers take the right approach and educate the client about the importance of this management equipment, you can make most systems much more stable and reliable. I am a dealer, we use this management equipment on most of our installs. We have been able to fix 95%+ of issues remotely and sometimes even before the client even knows there's an issue. That's great. But what is wrong with you sharing your approach with others? And of the 5% where you can't fix it and aren;t around? Does your customer have any idea what to do? Or are they left floundering in the dark all weekend or with no security or pumps on a late Sunday night? Have you thought about the legal problems if you haven't handed over some knowledge of their own networks (in such circumstances)? Has Control4 itself given any of these legal and privacy issues any thought? Adios W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Geeez. Cut us some slack! Adios!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Put it all on this public forum (See explanation why above) Who knows It might actually dramatically increase dealer business. Adios W I have absolutely nothing to gain by writing faq and I won't. Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Can you write some surgical how tos for me? Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, msgreenf said: I have absolutely nothing to gain by writing faq and I won't. Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk LOL nor would any of us expect that. But Control4 itself can't??? They can't spare us just one employee a couple weeks to do it? LOL! Adios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Wait here is an idea. A Control4 employee does a cut and paste from the dealer forum.. Take what? 10 minutes? Adios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 I have had enough of this. No disrespect to all my friends around here (and I count msgreenf as one of the main ones) But geeez guys! MAY COMMON SENSE PREVAIL JUST THIS ONCE! Adios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 7 minutes ago, msgreenf said: Can you write some surgical how tos for me? Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk Kboom! Caught red handed spying on my network again? hahaha (Anytime is the answer) Adios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 22 minutes ago, wappinghigh said: Kboom! Caught red handed spying on my network again? hahaha (Anytime is the answer) Adios! haha, no no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I don't think he knows what "adios" means. Does it have a different meaning in Australia? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D - Benn Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Well we all like a good old numbered list to reply to now don't we! 3 hours ago, wappinghigh said: 1/ You assume a (future) Control4 customer doesn't already have an extensive network in place. I for one got into Control4 via a 10 zone Sonos network. That was precisely the attractiveness of the Control4 product to me..(seeing the potential of similar network controlled "zones"). In fact it was the upcoming Sonos<>C4 driver that got me heavily into Control4 in the first place! 2/ You assume said (future) customer is going to happily throw away thousands of dollars of network gear and all the learning and toil of setting up their own network, buy yours and just pretty much "hand over" the control of their entire house (a rather private and personal abode I should add) to a business person who they might hardly know..and may not even be in business in future years? Most the jobs I do are new build, and the few I do that are not, I include in the quote a costing for new networking products I KNOW will work. If the client then says "I don't want to pay X for this when I have this" I say fine, but its an hourly rate to get it to work IF it does at all. Anything outside of this is not a profitable endeavour. The client is not my friend I'm doing a favour for. 3 hours ago, wappinghigh said: 3/ You assume people who decide to purchase Control4 gear know nothing about networks at all ( I beg to differ and would think most know something) That's probably why they contact you as a dealer in the first place. Maybe even why the give you the sale? I never made this assumption and even said In my post "I appreciate why end users that are network minded would find It handy though! " ??!! 3 hours ago, wappinghigh said: 4/ You assume we don;t have concerns about privacy and autonomy of our own houses? Again another assumption that was not made, I'm not sure where you are pulling these from? Privacy of the control 4 system and network is something that's left in control of the end user with features such as "Allow dealer remote access" within the my control 4 website. 3 hours ago, wappinghigh said: 5/ You assume we don;t have a natural desire to learn about our own product / You assume customers might not want to add other networkable gear or other software network drivers (outside the Control4 platform) that has nothing to do with you as a Control4 dealer. More assumptions that weren't even hinted at in my post. If an end user wanted to add or remove items from their network they do so at their own risk. I'm not going to stop them, but I will charge them when I have to go out and fault find. It's like buying an expensive car then tampering with the engine. Sure you can do it if you want but it wont be covered by warranty etc. A lot of crazy assumptions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Client is not a friend... My dealer is a friend. I did not know what he did for the first couple of years of knowing him. We met through a mutual non work activity. My friend still required my networking to be properly robust with hardware he knows works, and to install all the control4 gear in a rack. These points were non negotiatable. Adding stuff to network ... Well mostly, most of us are only adding more computers, tablets and phones. None of which are usually the most dangerous of appliances. Unless infected that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 I can't believe sometimes what I read around here. Yep. It's possible for one man mom and pop dealer setups to provide rock solid 24/7/365 Cyber security....Heck 100 employee setups even! Just ask the Pentagon! Wait there are more reasons why locking down this network info is dumb 7/ You assume the dealer site is not going to get hacked and the info will be not be lost 8:/ You assume your little network patrol setups are hack proof anyway. 9/ you assume you will still be in business years on, and the next guy who takes over will know what to do. 10/ you assume the world is going to stay static and there will never be a better way to provide cyber security..... 11/....You assume Control4 will be in business thru the end of the decade .... 12/ You assume all the Network gear you instal will still be around and supported thru the end of the decade... 13/ You might be a dealer with sound networking skills, but how does a future customer know that? In any case what if a dealer put's in some slight different setup than what is recommended on the dealer forum? Say to cut costs? Or for any number of a myriad of bias reasons? How does the end customer know their set up is C4 kosher (if they can't loggin and see on the dealer forum. Or the information is not out there)? I put up several logical, sound reasons why end users need know more about their networks, how they work with Control4, which settings and gear is best etc and I get mocked? Why this "we know better" approach is better for you so "tutt tutt little boy" and stop asking questions"? "We want it all "hidden" in some "exclusive" dealer forum?!!! You then treat me as if I am some sort of loser? For questioning that this might not be such a good idea after I provide logical reasons why it's not? Sure. Fairies live in the garden and Mother Clinton will hand out lollies to everyone and everything is just going to be dandy! Happy 2017 Audios! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I agree with Wap very much here, I wouldn't want a 3rd party to control access to my network in anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 31 minutes ago, msgreenf said: I agree with Wap very much here, I wouldn't want a 3rd party to control access to my network in anyway... Hooray! Someone with a touch of common sense Adios FINALLY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Adios FINALLY! Do you mean that ?? Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 31 minutes ago, msgreenf said: Do you mean that ?? Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Yep. You know me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatheed Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 57 minutes ago, wappinghigh said: Hooray! Someone with a touch of common sense Adios FINALLY! Common sense is knowing what "adios" means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I agree with Wap very much here, I wouldn't want a 3rd party to control access to my network in anyway... I'm confused. How do these third parties control access. They have monitoring tools with remote access They have remote ability to configure settings on the router. Access? In any case I was not required to have such access. I was required to have a robust dumb planet switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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