Centralised / Wireless Dimmer Question

[ImaC4Noob]

Hello Forum,

Hope you are all doing well!

I'm loving C4 and have embarked on my first major project - so exciting!

So, I'm working on new project and I'm testing a lot of the customers kit in my C4 LAB.

I've wired in a centralised lighting panel and was wondering what happens in the unfortunate event the C4 controller goes down/offline.  I read in the documentation that I can program keypads to "fallback" in the event of an outage but the documentation is quite vague and I don't fully understand how this is implemented? - I was hoping you experts might be able to point in the right direction.

I believe this also works for wireless adaptive phase dimmers, but I cant seem to get this to work either - I've programmed the keypads to switch on the respective loads but when I switch the controller off or unplug the network cable the keypads don't do anything (they do work when the keypads is removed  from the mesh)

I understand that my lack of experience is the problem and the above issues are easily resolvable.

Thanks in advance!

[lippavisual]

Keypads will only work as a fallback when they are wired using the low voltage bus.  Wireless keypads rely on zigbee server and coordinator to be running, so if either of those are down, you won’t get control. 

[ImaC4Noob]

8 minutes ago, lippavisual said:

Keypads will only work as a fallback when they are wired using the low voltage bus.  Wireless keypads rely on zigbee server and coordinator to be running, so if either of those are down, you won’t get control. 

Thanks for your response lippavisual - The wired keypads are connected to the bus but I cant seem to figure out the fallback setting.  I will spend sometime on it tomorrow no doubt I will sort it   With regards to the wireless dimmers - What do you recommend I do if the controller fry's for some reason (I know this shouldn't happen, but still) should I tell the customer to reset the dimmers and then reprogram them / restore from backup when I have a replacement controller? - or am I worrying over nothing. 

[Cyknight]

The wireless ones won't work without a controller. I do think you're overthinking it - it's not a common occurrence.

For central lighting there are two fall back options. the fallback settings are an option. While these work on a controller or network outage, they won't work if the keypad module or powersupply fails (also not common, but a lot more common than a controller failure, or even a network failure (assuming you're setting up the network well)

You're other option is to have a few well placed mechanical switches hidden away and wire them to the aux connections on the module. This at least gives the ability to turn all lights on those modules on/off.

Combine a good wire/module layout with this and you can at least control all the master/ensuite/walkin lights from the closet, all the bedrooms on that side of the house from a hall closet etc etc.

[ImaC4Noob]

Thanks Cyknight, your response is reassuring.  I know about the AUX override which is a good feature.

As you say, I'm over worrying.  However, I have read a lot of the bad reviews on trust pilot from customers who complain about their dealer and how Control4 doesn't work properly.
I don't wont to be one of those dealers, therefore I'm focusing on handover / documentation / Composer Home / FAQ's etc so in the event of a serious issue the customer doesn't get in to a panic and will know what steps to take before calling my helpdesk (maybe I should consider using Parasol for piece of mind)

Customers are happy when things are working, but very impatient and frustrated when things don't

As you've stated, it's not a common occurrence for things to stop working, but I'm a sucker for having all my check boxes ticked 

Thanks again.  This forum is helping a lot

 

[Cyknight]

No problem. Thinking of 'back up' options is a good thing, and I'm not saying don't use the default/fallback on keypads, but I wouldn't worry about doing every keypad that way. In a central system it's smart to use both wired and wireless (FYI you can power the 'standard' 120v keypads -unsure of the 240v version- on the same powersupply as the wired ones, so you can mix and match) keypads as wireless keypads create azigbee network for the remotes etc.

Choose a few good location for wired keypads with a few fallbacks to turn several lights on, for example one keypad in the bedroom entrance that has 3 buttons , the top will turn on the potlights, the bottom the chandelier - leave it at that.

 

Oh and fall back isn't 'programmed' - you just connect the 'fallback' connection on a keypad button (note that you have to set the layout on the keypad) to the light you want to fall back on (ie the driver for a central lighting dimmable light has a matching connection once entered into the system).

 

The system should write the fallback to the appropriate rs485 bridge automatically.

These fall backs should keep working when a controller is down, or when a router or central switch is down PROVIDED there is a viable path for the bridge to talk to the module (so if you wire everything back to a central switch, and that switch fails, fallback won't work either, if you have all the modules and the bridge chained, or going to a local small switch before going off to the main network, it will work)

[Cyknight]

Oh and for the record, we have numerous central lighting systems out there, and I do not remember ever having a client using the fall back controls.

[ImaC4Noob]

Top top man!  

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

when a router or central switch is down PROVIDED there is a viable path for the bridge to talk to the module

Ah PS - this may only work so long as the lease time isn't up for DHCP unless you set the devices to static

[South Africa C4 user]

I have used the fallback setup twice in 10 years (over 2 houses) when controllers have died… was very glad of the setup at the time as I was irritated enough with control4 not working would have been even more irritated if I had zero light control.  My dealer tells me there was a bug in this recently which was fixed in yesterday’s software release… I never knew was a bug until it was fixed so have no idea what the nature of the bug was!

[ImaC4Noob]

Thanks for responding - Its good to know that you've been using C4 for such a long time.  I'm defo going implement the fallback connection in key locations as cyknight suggested.

With regards to the adaptive phase dimmers, I'm surprised that C4 haven't come up with a solution to turn on/off the loads in the event controller / network down event though.   I have RA2 select installed in my house and the main reason for installing it was because I can still control the lighting loads (via the Picos) even when the network/bridge is down.

As mentioned in my previous thread - I'm worrying about nothing 

[South Africa C4 user]

1 hour ago, ImaC4Noob said:

Thanks for responding - Its good to know that you've been using C4 for such a long time.  I'm defo going implement the fallback connection in key locations as cyknight suggested.

With regards to the adaptive phase dimmers, I'm surprised that C4 haven't come up with a solution to turn on/off the loads in the event controller / network down event though.   I have RA2 select installed in my house and the main reason for installing it was because I can still control the lighting loads (via the Picos) even when the network/bridge is down.

As mentioned in my previous thread - I'm worrying about nothing 

Where I have keypad dimmers (not centralised lighting), as long as the top button controls the load, that button still works when the controller is down.  I may have my terminology wrong but this is an important part of my backup setup.

[ImaC4Noob]

I couldn't get this to work my end... ok thanks I will test this out tomorrow 

[Cyknight]

5 minutes ago, ImaC4Noob said:

I couldn't get this to work my end... ok thanks I will test this out tomorrow 

The top button in that scenario is likely set to a keypad function, vs toggle load function.

By using the toggle load vs keypad and connection, that button will ALWAYS keep controlling the load attached to a keypad dimmer.

Not that this is only for keypad dimmers, and only works for the load actually attached to the device

This has no bearing at all to centralized lighting (that's why the fall back and aux connections are there)

[ImaC4Noob]

Ok thanks a lot for your help guys - I will have play tomorrow.