Installing 6000w Dual Element Bromic Heaters

[reyn]

Hi all - So according to a local DC area outdoor kitchen retailer, Bromic is no longer recommending its smart-link device to customers as a way to link heaters to C4.  

I've got 3 6000w dual element bromic heaters ready for install.  The heaters are rated for 240v/25a according to attached diagram.  

Not an electrician, so trying to figure out what is the most economical way to control via C4 for on/off control of each heater element? 

If the switches are connected to each heater element would they be 25/2 = 12.5a each and thus suitable for C4 on/off switches, or would each switch have to handle 25a?

I've seen a lot of traffic around elk relays - not sure I understand completely what these are doing, but seems like they allow for a C4 switch to control higher amperage devices...but would seem like I'd need 1 relay per heater element for a total of 6 relays?

Thanks for any input and/or alternative ideas. 

Best,

TR

 

 

[Cyknight]

Funny, was just doing a back and forth with Bromic today, and they certainly didn't tell me they don't support the bromic link.....

[reyn]

Yeah, the vendor noted "The information was from Bromic and the Rep actually told me they are not recommending the Smart Heat Link they have had a lot of issues with the system.".  So who knows? 

In any case, gave me enough insecurity that I wanted to explore other options.   If I can figure out a on/off C4 controllable switch option, seems like an easier more cost effective solution. 

[reyn]

So here's what I'm thinking for a cost effective solution - pls see if any faulty logic in here:

• I'm currently wired by code for 6 double pole dumb toggle switches enabling independent on/off control of each of the 6 heating elements
• I want to have a variable timer function associated with each of the elements
• I employ contactors, which enables the ability to use C4 120v switches/dimmers 
• I get 6 keypad dimmers (C4-KD120), & each keypad button has a different heater off "interval" (E.g. 30 mins, 60 mins, etc)
• C4 kicks off a timer with corresponding interval and shuts the heater off accordingly

[RAV]

I'd do 6 SW120 for the contactors. (not sure if the contactors will like the triac of the KD)

Then 2 KC120 for the actual control.
One for Odds, and One for Evens.
6 keypads is going to be intimidating and sounds like more than would be needed.

Turn on the Odd set or Both.
And then if a person is complaining they're hot/cold, they can use bank of wall switch to on/off a specific out of the groups of three.

There is also a button timer driver in the database, so you could have each of the six SW have cycle through timers (tap once for 30, second time for 60, third for 90 and fourth for On with corresponding LED color)

[reyn]

Thanks for the advice. Presuming the KDS can’t work, I like your 6 SW timer driver idea as it fits in the footprint of my existing switches and offers flexibility to program intervals based on taps/colors.  You mention a 4th tap. I was unaware c4 recognizes more than 3 taps…. Also curious if the c4 heater driver would provide additional functionality here?  I read somewhere that in the c4 gui the heater icon would pop up a timer selection upon press?

[RAV]

1 hour ago, reyn said:

Thanks for the advice. Presuming the KDS can’t work, I like your 6 SW timer driver idea as it fits in the footprint of my existing switches and offers flexibility to program intervals based on taps/colors.  You mention a 4th tap. I was unaware c4 recognizes more than 3 taps…. Also curious if the c4 heater driver would provide additional functionality here?  I read somewhere that in the c4 gui the heater icon would pop up a timer selection upon press?

I'm USA so I forget about that one. Yes the SDSW240 would work.

"Light/Fan Button Timer"
it's one of those, I didn't know that existed drivers in the database.
Allows you to set up a combination of up to 3 defined timers with or without an On state.
Each press cycles to the next setting.
Each cycle has a corresponding defined color for the LED.
In the driver you assign it devices.
Those so assigned, the top button now does the cycle actions, and the bottom does off.
Intended for switches and toggle style dimmers (not keypads).

Bunch of exhaust fans, closet lights, outsides, storage, basement, attic etc.

[Cyknight]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:20 PM, RAV said:

Yes the SDSW240 would work.

No it won't.

US/NA 240v is NOT the same as EU/everywhere 240v. The first is 240v between two hot leads in two phases, the latter is 240v to neutral.

[reyn]

With the heater driver and corresponding multi-press approach, any reason why the essentials v-sw120's wouldn't be sufficient in place of the standard sw120's..  As far as I can tell, the key difference is two LED's vs one on the essentials, which would seem to be sufficient? 

The standard 120's have a max load rating of 15a, while the essential 120's have a max load rating of 11.5a "resistive" but if I'm using the contactors, I assume load doesn't matter anymore? 

Thx/Ted

[Cyknight]

The essentials should work fine: do note that the other difference is that the essentials use much more power operating (many times over, 3w vs 0.4w) so you pay less up front, but more over time. Oh and of course engraving, but if hidden...well that doesn't matter.

[RAV]

Not sure if the button timer driver works with essentials. And if it does then you won’t have the colored LED feed back.

[reyn]

Let's presume the button timer driver works with essentials.  Why wouldn't the LED at the bottom of the essentials suffice?

[RAV]

18 hours ago, reyn said:

Let's presume the button timer driver works with essentials.  Why wouldn't the LED at the bottom of the essentials suffice?

One of the feature's of the Button Timer driver is to change the color of the LED to reflect the timer length selected. IE: Yellow for 30, Red for 60 and Blue for On.

[reyn]

Thanks, I understood that much.  But isnt there an LED on the essentials switch that can be programmed against?

[reynolea]

Didn't hear back on this front - can you program the light color on the essentials switch?

[msgreenf]

11 minutes ago, reynolea said:

Didn't hear back on this front - can you program the light color on the essentials switch?

No

[booch]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:59 AM, reyn said:

So here's what I'm thinking for a cost effective solution - pls see if any faulty logic in here:

• I'm currently wired by code for 6 double pole dumb toggle switches enabling independent on/off control of each of the 6 heating elements
• I want to have a variable timer function associated with each of the elements
• I employ contactors, which enables the ability to use C4 120v switches/dimmers 
• I get 6 keypad dimmers (C4-KD120), & each keypad button has a different heater off "interval" (E.g. 30 mins, 60 mins, etc)
• C4 kicks off a timer with corresponding interval and shuts the heater off accordingly

As a super-happy owner of 5,000W Infratech heaters, one thing I'd consider investing in as a feature is dimming/power control at the individual heater level. Full power on mine is awesome at 45 degrees, but at less extreme temps., running them at 66%, 33%, etc. is more than enough. Also, this level of control let's people tailor heat to taste, e.g., my wife always wants double the power I do on the heaters above her.

I bought part of my solution which does the above pre-assembled from Infratech, but it'd be moderately easy to recreate (I've maintained/fixed), it's just:

1) An enclosure
2) 4x Carlo Gavazzi RGC1Ps SSRs
3) a 24V power supply
4) 4x circuit breakers
5) a Control4 0-10V 8-channel module (C4-DIN-8TV-E)

You'd obviously have to do a little research and tailor the parts to each other and your units, preferred C4 integration, etc., but I'd say it'd be ~$1,750 or so well spent.

Lastly, unrelated to comfort but good for your wallet: SSRs (like mine/example above) designed for infrared heaters have 'start up' programming to protect the heater's elements, which as you know/soon will, are the real cost of these heaters. See below for an explanation, if interested. Basically, without a ramp up when they're cold, it severely impacts life.



Good luck!

[Matt Lowe]

21 hours ago, reynolea said:

Didn't hear back on this front - can you program the light color on the essentials switch?

Just on/off, its only a blue led.