rf9000 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Guys, For my whole home audio and outdoor audio, I currently have a Triad 24x24 matrix, Triad 8x8 matrix, 3 x Triad PAMP100-8 amps, 2 x Crown CDI2000 amps(70 volt), 1 x Crown 2002 XLS amp, 2 x Crown 1502 XLS amps powering 26 audio zones and 6 subwoofer zones. I'm going to be coimbining the 24 matrix and the 8 matrix to get 32 zones. I know there will be alot of extra wiring in the rack, but couldn't find a real good solution for this unless I spent $1000s more to get one unit that would do 32+ zones. Plus have the fidelity the Traids do and let me SUM outputs for subwoofers. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 15, 2019 Author Share Posted March 15, 2019 I guess I don't know if my question was clear, just wanted to know if you guys thought I would lose any sound quality by combining the 24x24 and the 8x8 to get 32 zones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LollerAgent Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Seems overly complicated to me. What happened to the VS audio matrix you were looking at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic30101 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 What are the sources going to be on the matrices? Seems a little janky since the rooms on the 8x8 will have limited audio selections compared to the rest of the house. Plus the hassle of having to install not only a bunch of rca Y adapters for analog sources which isnt a huge deal, done it before when you have 2 16x16 matrixes in a house. But for the digital coax and toslink sources having to get a DA for each one seems like a pain in the ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, sonic30101 said: What are the sources going to be on the matrices? Seems a little janky since the rooms on the 8x8 will have limited audio selections compared to the rest of the house. Plus the hassle of having to install not only a bunch of rca Y adapters for analog sources which isnt a huge deal, done it before when you have 2 16x16 matrixes in a house. But for the digital coax and toslink sources having to get a DA for each one seems like a pain in the ass Realistically, the only source we ever used in my previous system was Deezer. I wanted to set up a couple of the 5.1 systems as sources too but I have had mixed feedback on that topic. You know, so when I’m watching a NFL game on a 5.1 system, I could select that as a source in other rooms to have the game sound played in those rooms. Why do you think this setup is clunky? What is another option for 32+ zones without using something from Altona, Wyrestorm, Zektor, etc. that costs $10,000+? Also, I was told even if I bought one of those $10,000+ switches, the sound quality would not be as good as the Triads so that is why I thought of combing the two. Can’t they be programmed to act as one 32 zone switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LollerAgent Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Why are you getting mixed feedback about using your HT zones as inputs into your matrix? Because of audio delay? What is stopping you from using the Triad amps even if you do use another brand of matrix? You failed to mention Videostorm which has been recommended to you several times and has a 38x38 zone matrix advertised for $3799 on their website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 Yes. Just was told the Triad switches would be better and are better quality. Don’t know if this is true or not. It is nice to have it all matching In the rack though. It just so works out that the 24x24 will be all interior zones and the 8x8 will be all exterior zones. So do you think the Video Storm 38x38 is a better option with all considered then the Triads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic30101 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 43 minutes ago, rf9000 said: I wanted to set up a couple of the 5.1 systems as sources too but I have had mixed feedback on that topic. Definitely a few ways to do it, this is what I do at home and it works great for my floor plan and use/case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LollerAgent Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 36 minutes ago, rf9000 said: Yes. Just was told the Triad switches would be better and are better quality. Don’t know if this is true or not. It is nice to have it all matching In the rack though. It just so works out that the 24x24 will be all interior zones and the 8x8 will be all exterior zones. So do you think the Video Storm 38x38 is a better option with all considered then the Triads? The VS audio switches do have more "knobs" to adjust in terms of audio delay, etc which the Triad matrixes do not have. I haven't used them personally, but people tend to really like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic30101 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 typically when you are not doing video distribution, audio delay adjustment is not a very important feature. If you are distributing video then your video matrix or HD over IP should have the audio breakouts and adjustment there which is why the VS has it to compensate for the encoding/decoding delay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Then there is always the "double matrix" issue with C4. Sometimes the pathing that the software does, is un-explainable and can do some funky chicken stuff. This is why it was recommended to get an audio switch that would support the amount of zones you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 If you're only sources are streaming sources out of Control4 controllers you will not need to use Y cables at all. Just send audio outputs from controllers to each matrix and you can still group those rooms no problem. If audio quality is a concern I would absolutely stick to the Triad gear. Their stuff sounds fantastic, especially if you're playing any high res/uncompressed content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 This is streaming content that you are listening to mostly on ceiling speakers? If so, do not worry about quality. While you are chopping onions in your kitchen do you really think you'll notice the difference? You can isolate specific rooms if higher quality audio is needed and find a solution. But I had a C4 matrix, I moved to a VS matrix and I have not heard any difference at all. No one has come to my house and said gee wiz i think your audio now has more umph or did you get new speakers because these stink. The VS matrix is the right size, it fits your budget and can honestly say from my experience you will not hear a sound difference. And I am not anti sound - I have a fairly nice set up using QUAD speakers in my living room so I've invested in some nice stuff. But for overhead streaming music just be realistic, it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 Ok, thanks for the replies. For more information, 24 zones will be interior overhead ceiling speakers for the house and garage. Two zones will be for front landscape speakers and rear landscape speakers. The remaining 6 zones will be for interior and exterior subwoofers. When I was deciding what to buy, I was told there would be no sound deteriation with y splitting on the Triads and that the sound quality on them was superior, so I decided to go that route. But if there are odd things C4 does with double matrix, I dont want that either. Here is my question, if for instance I play a song in the kitchen (kitchen is part of the 24x24 switch) with an online music source, then I decide to go outside and want to add the patio speakers (part of the 8x8 switch). Can I just add the zone like normal and it will begin playing at the exact same point in the song as the kitchen and they will play together without delay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 To add, the dealer tells me the dual Triad matrixes will be fine and he uses them in many setups. The biggest issue being the Y cable splitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 how much do the 2 Triad matrixes cost vs the 1 VS matrix? I am fairly confident no one will hear a qualitative audio difference. Again I had both matrix in my set up (went to VS for better audio delay because I have Netplay) and there has been zero audio difference. I have 1 serious listening space and ~8 non critical spaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 1 minute ago, eggzlot said: how much do the 2 Triad matrixes cost vs the 1 VS matrix? I am fairly confident no one will hear a qualitative audio difference. Again I had both matrix in my set up (went to VS for better audio delay because I have Netplay) and there has been zero audio difference. I have 1 serious listening space and ~8 non critical spaces. About the same, even though now I would have to sell the Triad stuff. Its difficult because you are the only real VS user on here so can't get more opinions on it. My dealer is telling me that he guarantees I will have better sound quality with the Triads, and he says its even more important with ceiling speakers. But, he did say that the quality may not be as big of a difference of the speakers are low end. I already bought them so he isn't trying to sell me on them. If there will be no difference whatsoever with the functionality, and only has to do with a few extra wires, then I dont really care and would just keep the Triads. I think they would be pretty easy to sell though if I switched to the VS 38x38. I guess one major selling point was that the Triad outputs can be summed into a single output to go to a subwoofer amplifier. I called VS on this and the guy seemed a little unsure but thought the VS could do that too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, eggzlot said: how much do the 2 Triad matrixes cost vs the 1 VS matrix? I am fairly confident no one will hear a qualitative audio difference. Again I had both matrix in my set up (went to VS for better audio delay because I have Netplay) and there has been zero audio difference. I have 1 serious listening space and ~8 non critical spaces. You had two Triad matrixes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Lowe Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 sounds like you might be able to combine a few rooms and then just y to the subwoofers and use their crossovers and just stick with the 24x24. for the sources if you have some with both analog and digital outputs you could feed analog to one matrix and digital to the second. the VS switch is a great piece and has great sound quality. The triad is better but if you want a true 2 channel system i would set that up separately of the distributed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 4 hours ago, rf9000 said: You had two Triad matrixes? I had a c4 matrix prior to the triad merger i know use a VS matrix. Zero sound difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 12 hours ago, Matt Lowe said: sounds like you might be able to combine a few rooms and then just y to the subwoofers and use their crossovers and just stick with the 24x24. for the sources if you have some with both analog and digital outputs you could feed analog to one matrix and digital to the second. the VS switch is a great piece and has great sound quality. The triad is better but if you want a true 2 channel system i would set that up separately of the distributed Thanks, but a bit confused on what you said here. You are saying that I should try to eliminate 8 of the zones by combining rooms? And then in the rooms where I want the subwoofers to play along with the ceiling speakers, just Y those outputs to the sub inputs in the rack? Like for instance, I have dual Kef ceiling subwoofers in the kitchen. So are you saying that for the output from the 24x24 for the kitchen zone, split that output to run to the Traid for the kitchen ceiling speakers and to the Crown for the Kef Subwoofers, thus saving a zone? I wasn't sure that I could do that and wasn't sure that would sound ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rf9000 Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 10 hours ago, eggzlot said: I had a c4 matrix prior to the triad merger i know use a VS matrix. Zero sound difference Yes, but aren't the new Triad matrixes suppose to be a major improvement in sound quality compared to the older C4 matrixes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Yes the new triad branded matrix and amps are all much,, much better sound quality then the old stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, mstafford388 said: Yes the new triad branded matrix and amps are all much,, much better sound quality then the old stuff. I am not going to argue specs on paper If you take ceiling speakers in the kitchen and hook them up to Triad vs VS vs Zektor vs others I am sure 95% of the people (if not more) would not be able to guess consistently which Matrix is involved. blind testing, 95%+ of people would not know. sure if its A or B in a coin flip they can guess, but if you asked them over several blind tests to pick I am fairly confident no one can do it consistently. People chase data and #s and oh this has that DAC vs another DAC or something. If you are talking about exterior patio speakers and speakers in your kitchen you are losing sleep over something so inconsequential. Get what fits your budget and makes the most programming sense and has the proper inputs/outputs and features (how many, analog vs digital, audio delay if needed, etc). You are chasing a unicorn otherwise. If you had a $10,000+ system with McIntosh equipment and electrostatic speakers and you did acoustic treatments to the room and other demanding gear you are talking a different ballgame. But whole home audio for speakers on your patio and in your kitchen, bathrooms and bedrooms? for streaming services? eh. put your energy elsewhere. oh and who has told you the Triad stuff is better? Triad/C4 dealers? Maybe they get a better profit margin vs selling 3rd party stuff (VS, Zektor, etc)? Not trying to ruffle feathers but again look at your use case and the sources you are streaming. You got bigger fish to fry vs worrying about your matrix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 41 minutes ago, eggzlot said: I am not going to argue specs on paper If you take ceiling speakers in the kitchen and hook them up to Triad vs VS vs Zektor vs others I am sure 95% of the people (if not more) would not be able to guess consistently which Matrix is involved. blind testing, 95%+ of people would not know. sure if its A or B in a coin flip they can guess, but if you asked them over several blind tests to pick I am fairly confident no one can do it consistently. People chase data and #s and oh this has that DAC vs another DAC or something. If you are talking about exterior patio speakers and speakers in your kitchen you are losing sleep over something so inconsequential. Get what fits your budget and makes the most programming sense and has the proper inputs/outputs and features (how many, analog vs digital, audio delay if needed, etc). You are chasing a unicorn otherwise. If you had a $10,000+ system with McIntosh equipment and electrostatic speakers and you did acoustic treatments to the room and other demanding gear you are talking a different ballgame. But whole home audio for speakers on your patio and in your kitchen, bathrooms and bedrooms? for streaming services? eh. put your energy elsewhere. oh and who has told you the Triad stuff is better? Triad/C4 dealers? Maybe they get a better profit margin vs selling 3rd party stuff (VS, Zektor, etc)? Not trying to ruffle feathers but again look at your use case and the sources you are streaming. You got bigger fish to fry vs worrying about your matrix. Ok, so I was simply answering a direct question with regards to old C4 audio stuff vs the new Triad stuff. Didn't even bring up VS, Zektor etc, although I've worked with a bunch of dealers who use both so I've actually seen and experienced all of them (I really like the Zektor stuff too for large systems). The biggest difference in audio quality will come from the new amps vs the old amps. It doesn't matter if we are talking specs on paper or actual listening experience they are flat out better. I had the old stuff, I now have the new stuff and there is a noticeable difference even when using streaming content through my in ceiling kitchen speakers, especially with Tidal and Deezer. So that partially answers your question as to who told me they are better, the other answer to that question is pretty much everyone who has used and heard them, dealers and customers, and several other people in the industry who have no skin in the game either way. There are tons of people out there who don't care about quality audio but the OP has specifically asked about it several times in this thread so that makes me think it's at least a little important to him. Oh, and I sleep just fine thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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