What I Look For In A Customer

[GoGo Delicious]

I received a few emails regarding the original post about what I look for in a customer and that I should start a new thread for it. So I am taking that advice put the topic in its own thread.

This topic all started with the following post.

Too bad thers not a list for "What to look for in a customer"

I actually have a list' date=' that I developed and that we use, in what to look for in a customer. I have thought about posting it but there are a few reason I have not, 1) I do not know where on this forum to post it, 2) about 95% of the users on here will be offended 3) most dealers are not willing to filter their customers as aggressively as we do and thus my list will really not benefit anyone and most likely piss everyone off.[/quote']

So I decided to post what I look for in a customer. Below is the original post.

**********************************************************************

Sorry I didn't get this posted over the weekend like I said I would I just got busy.

As I have stated before I own DSW (Digital Studio Werks) and DSW works strictly with interior designers. Thus interior designers are our clients and this list does NOT apply to them. It's the interior design devision of our company that works with the public as clients that this list applies to. DSW NEVER does interior design work or consulting. We respect the interior designers work and as such DSW STRICTLY does custom integration.

As I stated in my previous post when we take on an interior design project we not only do the interior design but we also do all the Lighting, AV, Shades and HVAC automation.

Below is what my interior design firm looks for in a customer. Some of you might be offended by what I write but I do not mean any offense. This is the way I run MY company and others will run theirs differently.

1) Does The Client Do Things Right - We require the client does everything right the first time with no questions asked. NO EXCEPTIONS. Just keep that in mind as you read through and you will understand my logic behind what follows.

2) Who Is The Customer - In general we do not take on "Celebrity" clients. There are a few exceptions to this rule. We keep our celebrity clientele to those who we feel we can work with and who can fit in with 3-10 below. As a note, we will NEVER take on a sports figure, reality star, or Disney Star. EVER! NO EXCEPTIONS! I cannot tell you how many we have turned down. Also, please don't ask who we have worked with as we NEVER reveal our client list. Celebrity or not.

3) Can The Potential Client Truly Afford What They Want - There is difference between being able to afford something and something that is affordable. Does the client have the financial resources not only complete the project AS DESIGNED, but have the budget for recurring expenses.

4) Is The Potential Client Able To Afford Our Services - The client has to understand that we do not modify interior design plans, furnishings, equipment requirements or system design service because of cost. By the time we finish the Client Lifestyle Discovery Process we know exactly what the interior and system design is going to be, and what furnishings and equipment we are going to use. We design the clients system so there is room for future expansion while at the same time not waisting the clients money. In addition to design, av and automation costs there are TFL (Travel, Food & Lodging) expenses. 95% of our clients are out of state (We are located in So. Cal) and 3% are out of the country. We only have a few, less than 5, clients in California. Clients need to understand that we have certain standards in TFL and they must meet that criteria.

5) Clients Previous Experience with Automation - Is this the first time a client is incorporating a whole home automation & AV distribution system? Are they coming from another product? Do they have a current system that they want fixed, upgraded or replaced?

If this is their first automation system do they understand what role a system will play in their lifestyle and the value the system adds? This is very important. If the client wants a system because "it's cool" or "the Jones' have one" then the client is not for us.

The same goes if the client wants to replace their current system. We will only replace a current system if we are doing the interior design. If we are not doing the interior design and the client only wants us to replace, upgrade, or "fix" their system we will not take the job. We don't take on other peoples headaches.

6) Is The Potential Client A DIY’er - If the client express ANY interest in helping with the project, having their "friend, brother, cousin, sister, etc." help in order to "cut costs" or "save money" then we do not take them. As I have stated before in other posts, just because I can make a bowl of cereal does not make me a chef. Just because as you are able to connect a router to a switch does not make you a network engineer. This violates rule #1, #3 & #4. This type of client will not be one of our clients.

7) The Potential Client "Can Do It" - If the potential client states that they are a network engineer, a software engineer, a computer engineer or any other type of engineer and they can do some of the work, programming, installation, etc. then we do not take them. I am not an instructor of any sorts and thus in order to stay within the cost we gave you and on schedule I can not teach you another trade and thus the client is not for us.

8) Is The Client Cheap (Notice I did not say "Frugal, Thrifty or Cost Conscious") - Does the potential client baulk at the equipment list due to cost? Does the client say "I can do the same thing with my RocketDyne 3000 connected to my Flux capacitor for less than 1/2 the cost." Clients who say this do not know what they are talking about, do not have experience with the recommended product to make such a statement and are basically saying they cannot afford the recommended equipment and cover that up with such a statement. This goes against the following rules #1, #3, #4 & #6. This is definitely not the client we want.

9) The Client Wants To Source Their Own Equipment - This really is not an issue for us since we only carry high end, luxury brands which are not available in the big box stores, for example Crestron, Kaleidescape, MA, etc. I bring this up because every now and then, not to often clients want to buy the equipment used of eBay, AudioGon, etc. That’s fine, they can do that but we will NOT integrate it or support it what so ever. All equipment must be purchased NEW from us no exceptions. If the client objects then we do not take them on.

10) How Did The Potential Client Hear About Us - We prioritize potential clients in the following order. 1st Existing Clients, 2nd Existing Client Referrals, 3rd Referrals from interior designers or Architects and 4th Off the street. Off the street clients are VERY rare. In fact we have never had a potential client who just called us out of the blue. All our clients have come from 1 - 3. Also we do not take clients or potential clients from any of the forums I am on.

These are just a few of the things we look at. There are more which are specific to our interior design company that would not apply to any other business.

Again, this is what we look for in a customer. I know that no one on this forum is a potential client of ours but I decided to post this because 1) I got a few requests over the past couple of weeks and 2) although dealers will not publicly admit it I am sure some of them apply some of the above when deciding on taking on a potential client. Remember these are a few things my interior design company looks for in a potential client. The above DOES NOT apply to the DSW side.

[GoGo Delicious]

Below is one of the emails I received in regards to my post. I asked permission from the sender to post their email because I thought it would be beneficial to answer the questions on the forum and have members see the answers. I will not release the name of the send BUT I will say the sender is a C4 customer and NOT a dealer.

Hi James.

I have incredible respect for you, your advice and your knowledge.

Thank you. I appreciate the complement.

But I confess, my jaw dropped a little when I read your posts. Is what you are saying that you are simply not interested in any product feedback at all from your clients? That your installs and product line is so perfect that it will suit everyone you take on board?

Our clientele are the type that leave all the equipment decisions up to us for the most part. Our clients are in a different state of mind and want everything to work. They are not DIY'rs or hobbyists and as such they will never work on their own systems or have any desire to. Our client typically has a VERY high net worth starting in the high 8, low 9 figure. You must keep in mind that a single room starts at about 1 million and heads upwards from there. These type of clients want their system to just work.

That might be the case with Crestron and the other brands you sell, but I venture to say I'd be surprised if that was the case with Control4. It's a different product. For a start it has Composer HE, so this inherently encourages customer participation in their own project.

The Crestron client can do everything on a TP that a C4 client can do in composer. Once we are finished a client can create and modify lighting scenes, AV events, Security events, Environment events, etc. Once we do the "Client Lifestyle Discovery" we pretty much have the system dialed in. But we still give the client the option to make changes to their own system without having to open up an application on their pc.

It also now interfaces thru various drivers into other manufacturers products. Many of which, the home owner has as much, if not more knowledge than potential Control4 installers. Id be confident to say there were many dealers out there who learn just as much about home automation integration from 'interested' customers (and on this forum), as the other way around (dealers telling customers 100%) the way of doing things.

Crestron is a VERY different type of system than C4 in every aspect, including programming. A Crestron system does not need a driver from a manuf or from a 3rd party developer. Any Crestron programmer can create a driver on their own in less than 5 min if they have the IR, RS-232, IP codes. I have attached an image that shows not only how I control my LG display but the apps on it in NetCast including Vudu. If you have LG's RS-232 codes and you look at them you will see thats exactly what I put in the 2-way serial driver below. This took me less than 5 min. I would say it took me 1 to 2 min to create.

Thats how simple it is. There is no need to wait for a "driver" from LG or Crestron. Another example is Oppo Digital. I can create a driver in 5 min. from their RS-232/IP Codes

Can I be so bold as to ask, that if you don't take on the odd 'engineer' or software designer or two, how do you know you are keeping at the cutting edge? How do you really know which way the market in general is moving with all this technology?

Thats called keeping up with the industry. I get that information from ALL around. For example from trade shows (CEDIA, InfoComm, CEA, etc), Industry publications, Forums (C4, AVS, etc) and Manufactures calling on us asking to beta test, demo or review their equipment. These are just a few sources but knowing the trends is not hard when you know your industry.

[RyanE]

James,

You may be a *bit* out of touch with Control4.

A dealer can create a driver in Control4 in about 5 minutes as well, unless it's a more complicated 2-way Serial or IP driver.

It's called Driver Wizard, and it's been in Control4 from the first day that gear shipped.

There's no need to wait for a driver from any 3rd-party gear in Control4, either. All you need is the remote (for IR), the IR codes, or the protocol of a device.

Of course, there are also thousands of drivers in Control4's online database, and hundreds of certified drivers (which are typically a little more complicated than the one-way '5-minute' drivers), which have also been tested by Control4's PQA department.

RyanE

[GoGo Delicious]

James,

You may be a *bit* out of touch with Control4.

A dealer can create a driver in Control4 in about 5 minutes as well, unless it's a more complicated 2-way Serial or IP driver.

It's called Driver Wizard, and it's been in Control4 from the first day that gear shipped.

There's no need to wait for a driver from any 3rd-party gear in Control4, either. All you need is the remote (for IR), the IR codes, or the protocol of a device.

Of course, there are also thousands of drivers in Control4's online database, and hundreds of certified drivers (which are typically a little more complicated than the one-way '5-minute' drivers), which have also been tested by Control4's PQA department.

RyanE

Thats what I am talking about, 2-way Serial/IP Drivers. I have not created an IR driver in abbot 2 years.

From the complaints I read on here from C4 users are the lack of 2-way drivers, serial or IP. If any dealer, C4 or Crestron, has the RS-232 or IP codes than they should be able to make them no problem. I have never ran into a "Complicated" 2-way Serial/IP driver.

[RyanE]

I agree, most devices (especially AV gear) have straightforward protocols, most are not really 2-way, but 1-way with a few items of feedback (i.e. power, volume, status). Those are definitely easy to create in Control4.

I've made plenty of those, but also more complicated drivers.

I have never ran into a "Complicated" 2-way Serial/IP driver.

I have. Tons of them. Most complicated devices are not simply a list of RS232 or IP commands.

I'm talking about drivers that have a complicated protocol, or that require a goofy one-off ACK/NAK, or a custom complicated checksum, or bit slicing / bitmasks. Drivers that control web services. Drivers that maintain complicated state machines.

I've written drivers to talk to Panasonic PBXes (ASN.1 BER and PER), random Korean Dimmers and Gas Valves (RS485 custom protocol), the Sony BD-7000 disc changer, most security panels, a ZWave gateway, and native drivers for 3rd-party ZigBee devices (ZCL can be a pain to parse).

Crestron or Control4, those kinds of drivers are not 5-minute jobs, and most sane dealers are very glad to be able to just download the already tested driver from the online database..

RyanE

[wappinghigh]

Driver creation (and paying for the time it takes to do this) as a customer, has always been my biggest beef with home automation and universal remotes. Whether it's C4, or Crestron. I have never understood why the end user should pay for this: when the final result is, the driver simply goes onto a database for the "benefit" of everyone. Actually, this benefits the dealer AND company. Yet the customer pay's for it. Saying it takes a mere 5 mins in simply wrong. It takes way longer than this with trial and testing. Basically the HA companies get a free ride on this, when it is they who should be paying for the R&D.

Now I know the stock answer to this is "well we can't possible test every device"..but this has never gelled with me. If I pay for the driver "development", I should be able to sell it back to the Company database.

It now annoy's me so much, that I pretty much look for a driver first (before buying the equipment). No driver: No equipment purchase. This has now moved to IP drivers only in the future.

And this leads me onto another comment, which I know dealers like James might not like. James, you obviously have a great business and are in the enviable position of having such a wonderful array of high net worth individuals as potential customers. Good luck to you man. But that is not the "real" world. If HA is going to penetrate even the next level down, it has to become more customer focused.

I predict that in 20-30 yrs time..dealers will be basically home network engineers. All "control" will be IP based, with drivers downloadable by the home owner straight from company or driver provider websites. Firmware upgrades, drivers, adding components will all done by the end user. whatever your "model" is now. with all the change going on in the world, it better be "flexible"!

Other than perhaps rolling out cable (by then lets hope fibre is the norm), dealers will never set foot in the door. So whether you like it or not, the end user is going to want more and more say in "what driver", and "what product", and how they want to do things.

The Gen Y want it now, want to download "for free" crowd, when they finally grow up and *can" afford a house *with* a HA system, will not necessarily want to do things they way C4 and Crestron do things now.

[CFUG]

^Business doesn't work that way as it generally goes. When I worked, I charged the customer for each and every prototype that was produced. Money up-front for development work and units. We loved to score contracts but so did our competition so we came on low and with an aggressive timeline. Proto units are the property of the customer yeah but they aren't for free.

[RyanE]

I predict that in 20-30 yrs time.. (snip) All "control" will be IP based, with drivers downloadable by the home owner straight from company or driver provider websites. Firmware upgrades, drivers, adding components will all done by the end user.

I predict that this will not happen.

I've heard the prediction that companies will provide drivers for their equipment for download, that automation systems (or any programs, for that matter) will self-organize and self-program or go DIY and the end user won't have any need for (engineers/programmers/integrators/etc.) for 20 years now.

RyanE

[cdepaola]

I predict that this will not happen.

People said the same thing about nearly everything in history, and they were wrong!

Who would have thought that folks would be able to set up a single appliance and build what was once considered a complicated network, in their homes, without wires?! (gasp)

If this doesn't happen it will be because manufacturers think that proprietary is the way to go... I love all the hardware that has proprietary control apps, which the company makes no money off of yet they are afraid to give out protocols... Business should not be afraid to share things such as price, control protocol, services, etc...

James: You are very confident, its impressive how much so. I'm sure your business model works very well for you though it does seem that you may miss out on some business because of pre-conceived assumptions on the capabilities of your client base and as well as your own abilities. I can tell you for a fact that there are folks who can not only afford your services but who know as much if not more then you about things such as network engineering, audio or video equipment, programming, etc. The folks I personally know in this category might be able to actually teach you something as opposed to your scenario of you having to be the "teacher".

Just sayin.

[RyanE]

If this doesn't happen it will be because manufacturers think that proprietary is the way to go... I love all the hardware that has proprietary control apps, which the company makes no money off of yet they are afraid to give out protocols... Business should not be afraid to share things such as price, control protocol, services, etc...

That's *exactly* why I don't see it happening.

For the panacea of control to happen, businesses don't only need to give out their control protocol, they need to all use the *same* control protocol.

Which I've also heard 'was just around the bend' for the past 20 years.

Same as A.I., where AI researchers have said that a 'general intelligence' was going to emerge '20 years in the future'. The estimate doesn't change. The end date does.

I would *LOVE* to be wrong about this, BTW.

The closest we've come to this are things like OBD-II, and although it's pretty good, it's also pretty bad, and the main reason it happened was because of a government mandate to make it easier to do emissions testing.

RyanE

[RyanE]

I predict that this will not happen.

People said the same thing about nearly everything in history, and they were wrong!

Oh, and I didn't say it would *NEVER* happen, just that it I predict it won't happen in the next 20-30 years.

How's *THAT* for hedging...

RyanE

[wappinghigh]

I predict that in 20-30 yrs time.. (snip) All "control" will be IP based' date=' with drivers downloadable by the home owner straight from company or driver provider websites. Firmware upgrades, drivers, adding components will all done by the end user.[/quote']

I predict that this will not happen.

I've heard the prediction that companies will provide drivers for their equipment for download, that automation systems (or any programs, for that matter) will self-organize and self-program or go DIY and the end user won't have any need for (engineers/programmers/integrators/etc.) for 20 years now.

RyanE

When I said "companies will provide drivers". I actually meant companies like Control4, or EV et al. I didn't mean Sharp/Sony/LG...etc...Control4 would remain the central repository for 3rd party drivers and overall management of a project. I simply meant the "local dealer" will be taken out of the driver/firmware/add in a new device equation. I firmly believe there won't be "dealers" like there are now. That is the white shoe brigade that knocks on the door, and goes around to a house and "personally installs everything, including the drivers." A dealer that somebody has to "book" and then wait 2 weeks for a drive out, to simply add in a new TV set to a project. That sort of thing. Anybody who thinks this model will continue on into the 2030's and beyond, is kidding themselves..I actually think this way of doing things will be finished by the end of this decade. I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and say that Control4 will eventually change *it's* dealer only driver and firmware upgrade model by then....

It just can't possibly go on the way it is. Not now folk have got used to the "user only" upgrade model of Apple apps/drivers/firmware et al.. The way Control4 does things seems so 1990's right now. And we are 2012 already...

I know there may be dealers out their that think otherwise, and may not like it...but I believe this change is inevitable..

Look. I know I may not be your average customer. That's stating the bleeding obvious. But neither are people in the 20's and 30's "average" customers anymore...The way they do things. How they buy stuff. How they use computers and idevices.. They don't watch nearly as much TV for starters...so there goes the impact of the on screen TV Navigator. If I told my daughters they had to get a bloke out to upgrade their iphone and personally add in an app or some music, then tell them that "only the onsite Apple dealer"..can hook it up to their audio player, they'd look at me as if I was insane.. Folks the world has moved on...

[wappinghigh]

Observing the way James does things. It's amazing. He must give great customer service. And I'm sure his customers are extremely happy. I'm just saying that this "way" is not anywhere on my radar. It never will be. I'm sorry. I couldn't afford it, but even if I could, I wouldn't want it that way either.

Now what I am continually more amazed by, is just how slow Control4 is, in moving away from this sort of Crestron model.

They have the devices now to make it simple. They are affordable. There is nothing practically stopping the hardware being plug and play. They are the younger company. They have a great internet driver base. Some fantastic switched on third parties like EV, Recluse, DD and others writing fabulous integration. They have an app store. They have a potentially huge younger tech savvy customer base in Gen X and Y. They have this forum as a resource. All this could be co-ordinated online. Without a dealer setting foot in the home. Why. Just why they don't take those "next" steps, to completely blow the competition like Crestron out of the water, is something I simply fail to comprehend. I'm sorry. But there you have it

[RyanE]

Now what I am continually more amazed by, is just how slow Control4 is, in moving away from this sort of Crestron model.

I'm not.

This is once again where we will have to agree to disagree. While Control4 certainly *could* go more DIY, I don't believe it's in Control4's best interest at this point in time. I'm not going to expound on why I think that, but it's where I'm at tonight.

I've seen other companies try it, and fail miserably.

Control4 could someday offer something along those lines, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

RyanE

[wappinghigh]

I've seen other companies try it, and fail miserably.

Yeh? Which ones? Care to name them?

[alanchow]

All control systems are bound by the same issues. I see crestrons SIMPL windows to be similar to control4's connections but on a lower level (ie connecting codes which in this case they are in analog serial and digital joins). Now this is pretty easy for your entry level crestron programmers but you'll get to the driver works equivilant (SIMPL+). Now not every crestron programmer can use this in a similar fashion to how now all control4 programmers can program driverworks. Just my 2c

[jbat]

I think James is on another planet. His list is an encyclopaedia article on how to be a HA installer/dealer maybe fifteen years ago.

This came out of a discussion about how customers search for dealers, and what customers value. I think that this list is a breathtakingly arrogant inversion of that discussion. Maybe James does get enough business, while following those rules, to stay in the black, but they're still terrible advice for other dealers. Congratulations though if he has reached that fantastic state where he can hold customers to this test.

Broadly, the issue is integrity in being a dealer. If you are a dealer, you don't have to have this list to have integrity. Customers can have good ideas, will have existing products, will probably have an interest in the technology they buy, and definitely will have limited budgets (even though they might be big budgets). Its about meeting their needs in a creative way, using the product that you've put faith in.

If I were Bill Gates, I wouldn't buy off James... though he probably wouldn't let me anyway.

[ILoveC4]

For those of you that weren't around here in 2006/2007, you may find this interesting.

http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=1136

Nothing against James and his company, it is just so entertaining to me to read/see these posts after some of the posts I was reading 5-6 years ago.

http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=1047

I am sure that James is a great service provider, I don't want anyone to think otherwise. It's also great that he is in a position to be so selective with his clients. I'd venture to bet that the companies that take his stance could be counted on one (maybe two) hands. Again, good for him.

Remember kids (reference to his old thread that made me laugh), don't quit taking music lessons and hang on to those drumsticks...they could take you places one day =)

[Godzilla]

Dan.........i was not around in 06/07.........i feel better now.....lol

and there i was feeling bad i even asked the question.......that started this whole thing

[diamonddesign]

#1 thing I look for that I almost never get is a budget. I know everyone realizes that speakers can cost $50 or $50,000. I've sold 60" tvs for $1200 and $8000 (runco) so its a good idea to have a budget to share.

[GoGo Delicious]

Now this is pretty easy for your entry level crestron programmers but you'll get to the driver works equivilant (SIMPL+).

I only use SIMPL+ for writing custom modules such as a Time Server Module, Weather Module, Custom Sirius/CEN-TRACK Module, etc. I RARELY use it For RS-232/IP. I have only used SIIMPL+ twice for an RS-232 driver.

[smarch]

I was going to comment in detail regarding GoGo's inital post. However I've determined that he's not worth my time. That post is laughable, that's all I can say.

Good luck

[GoGo Delicious]

If I were Bill Gates, I wouldn't buy off James... though he probably wouldn't let me anyway.

MS is one of Crestron's largest customers. But as far as Bill Gates goes, I don't know him personally, but I don't think my company and him would be a good match.

[GoGo Delicious]

I was going to comment in detail regarding GoGo's inital post. However I've determined that he's not worth my time.

By posting the above, you just commented.

[well_armed]

You are like the Maddof fund of Home Automation.