Will Control4 follow what Crestron did with Pyng?

[thecodeman]

On 9/19/2014 at 0:42 PM, digitaltrader said:

Once apple get more involved AV will be a DIY solution but will require new equipment. In 5 years all AV will be automated out if he box IMO.

I want to be optimistic about this. But here we are in 2016 and just this week I bought some smaller Samsung TVs hoping to be  able to control them with HMDI CEC. A spec in HDMI. But lo, many manufacturer's small/cheaper TV lines don't have CEC and you have to double check the manual to make sure. CEC is in the HDMI spec and I would think that at least for basic on/off control every tv made today with hdmi would have it. Super frustrating. 

[jfh]

1 hour ago, Audio Obsessions said:

Honestly, if you have composer home edition and have any dealer drop in some drivers, then for the most part c4 is diy! If "diy complainers" on this forum, spent as much time on their own projects within composer home edition and perfecting their own infrustructure, I think they would be much happier, and realize that for the most part we are already there. 

You must have Pro.

 

Your comment is easy to make if you haven't experienced the frustration of not being able to make even what most would consider simple changes and/or waiting days or weeks to have a dealer do something that should take 5 minutes and then charge you an hour (or more) at extremely generous rates.  Installing drivers (or making connections or anything else in Composer) doesn't take anywhere near the skill level that those rates should justify, especially to anyone with the computer/logic skills and inclination necessary.

You may not realize how little you can "perfecting your own infrastructure" you can do without Pro.  Want to move a device from a room to a matrix?  Can't.  Swap a receiver?  Can't.  Move a cable from one input to another?  Can't.  Rename a device so it makes sense in a navigator? Can't.  Change from IR control to IP?  Can't.  Update a driver to simply change an freakin' icon? Can't.

There are dealers here who have said they wouldn't have Control4 in their own homes if they didn't have Pro.  I'm sure there are many more that feel the same.   And yet you insult the intelligence of those "DIY"s (known as CUSTOMERS) that don't even have the option to control their own equipment?   

 

Yeah.  I'm so much happier knowing what I can't do. Thanks.  

"For the most  part, we are already there?"  LOL.   That's like telling your kids that you can't go in to Disneyland on vacation, but you can stay somewhere close enough to see the park - because, for the most part, you would already be there, right?

 

 

 

[Audio Obsessions]

If you think that I don't want it to be DIY, then you are mistaken. I do. And I do believe consumers should have the ability to do what they want to. 95% of them will still call me.

I feel you pain, but also suggest that their isn't much better out there even for the DIY.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jfh]

1 hour ago, Audio Obsessions said:

If you think that I don't want it to be DIY, then you are mistaken. I do. And I do believe consumers should have the ability to do what they want to. 95% of them will still call me.

 

Glad to hear that.   But, with due respect, I don't think you can understand the pain.  It's like a millionaire in a mansion saying he can feel the pain of the homeless guy living under a bridge.

I hope you and other like minded dealers push back on Control4 and get management to understand that restricting Pro hurts far more than it helps.   And I think your 95% number is low, which should give you more reason to push.

 

Who is going to want Pro?

1) Those that are interested, will use it often, are computer savvy, actually read instructions and understand the risks.  I don't think this is anywhere near 5% of the customer base (maybe yours is more savvy).

2) Those that like the idea of being able to maintain their system, but will never do it

3) Those that think "how hard can it be?" and try, only to realize they have no interest in spending the time needed.

4) Those convinced they can do it, but who screw things up to the point they need their dealer to step in.

5) Most that receive a good upsell from their dealer or who already have HE.

 

Unless you are in group #1, everyone else is going to eventually call a dealer anyway.  And I'm sure there are many like me in group #1 who would buy more equipment and install services from their dealer if they could do the software part themselves. 

 

Not a single dealer worth his salt is going to suffer if Pro is licensed to customers.  I suspect many will profit from it, especially those with customers in group #4  .   Control4 would get bragging rights no other player in the industry could claim.

 

Not licensing Pro simply protects bad dealers, props up a shaky business model and alienates that small but vocal portion of the customer base that could provide a major assist with growth at very little cost.  The cost of making Pro generally available will be a drop in the bucket compared to the potential of the market it opens.   

I'm sure someone from corporate feels differently and I'd love to hear why they think expanding the Pro base would not be good for the company, dealers, customers, and potential customers.  Maybe I'm missing something obvious.  But all I've seen so far says that I'm not.

 

[thegreatheed]

21 minutes ago, jfh said:

  And I think your 95% number is low, which should give you more reason to push.

 

 

Most of the DIY-inclined homeowners on here think this.

Most of the dealers on here do not.

Confirmation bias in action!

[eggzlot]

46 minutes ago, jfh said:

Maybe I'm missing something obvious.

I'll start with 1 thing - support.  Open it up to anyone who wants Pro, you now have to expand your help desk.  Right now they aren't open weekends and I think open to like 7pm or 8pm EST.  Good luck having a home automation system 100% open up to the public to do as they please without global 24x7 support.  Is that cheap?  Can that level of support be implemented overnight?  Do they feel they will gain more customers (as you state with your "facts" only 5% want it) by offering this level of access that will offset the cost of implementing 24x7 support?  Take salary + benefits x how many people you need, its not cheap.  You need a decent return.  

Other hubs that were 100% DIY that were sold in big box stores have come and gone too. 

I see lots of businesses going the way of subscription services - heck even razors are now sold in monthly subscriptions.  Keep HE as a 1 time fee, if you want Pro, make it a yearly subscription model.  Could help generate ongoing revenue and could help pay for the support required.  And I would make this a substantial cost too, not like $199/year.

Personally I am happy working with a dealer, that is why I purchased into this model.  I did not like my original dealer, so I found a new one who I like, freedom of choice.  If I wanted 100% DIY I had other options.  I picked C4 knowing its pros and cons.  Which is what baffles me that people come here to complain about something they purchased.  If you do not like the purchase, sell your gear and go buy something that is 100% DIY.  I am still waiting on Apple, Crestron, Google, Amazon, Savant and others to release a fully functional 100% DIY platform.  I've had C4 for about 30 months, so I've been researching/paying attention to this market for say 36-40 months.  Heard all the talk and rumors, yet there is still no 100% DIY platform that is huge that covers all needs.  Wink, Iris and others have tried, but are not a fraction of the system that C4, Crestron and Savant (and others in the dealer model) offer.  If the "market" really needed one, wouldn't one come to fruition already?  This isn't new technology per se, home automation has been around the block a few times. 

[thegreatheed]

I totally agree that the cost of support is VASTLY underestimated.

Control4 has good, if not great, technical support. Their entire staff is made of technical guys, most former installers or experienced support techs from related industries. These are not college kids reading from a script. (And even companies that have college kids reading from a script struggle with the costs of support.) Real, technical, in-depth support on a topic as open-ended and complex as integration of thousands of different products would likely be prohibitively expensive to roll out to the entire customer base. Right now they support a few thousand experienced, trained dealers. Supporting tens (or hundreds) of thousands of untrained, inexperienced homeowners would require an exponential increase in support costs.

[jfh]

8 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I'll start with 1 thing - support.  Open it up to anyone who wants Pro, you now have to expand your help desk.  Right now they aren't open weekends and I think open to like 7pm or 8pm EST.  Good luck having a home automation system 100% open up to the public to do as they please without global 24x7 support.  Is that cheap?  Can that level of support be implemented overnight?  Do they feel they will gain more customers (as you state with your "facts" only 5% want it) by offering this level of access that will offset the cost of implementing 24x7 support?  Take salary + benefits x how many people you need, its not cheap.  You need a decent return.  

I see lots of businesses going the way of subscription services - heck even razors are now sold in monthly subscriptions.  Keep HE as a 1 time fee, if you want Pro, make it a yearly subscription model.  Could help generate ongoing revenue and could help pay for the support required.  And I would make this a substantial cost too, not like $199/year.

 

Who says you have to expand the help desk?    That's a totally different offering.  It would be nice, but impractical.

Start with licensing Pro.  Nothing else.   No access by non-dealers to the help desk.  If you need the help desk, work through your dealer.    Charge an optional subscription fee to allow non-dealers read only access to the existing dealer forums and knowledge base and you probably eliminate the need for that support avenue anyway.   The people that will use Pro are not the type that's going to want/demand/need help desk support.

Using potential support costs and only looking at gold plated support standards to kill a project is a corporate tactic that's been around forever.  Very few software products provide 24x7 unlimited support anymore.  For the reasons you mention, it's costly.  Trust me, I know the issues.  I have designed corporate support systems. They are money pits.  Break even and you're a genius.  Turn a profit and you're probably the next CEO.  

The typical C4 customer will never license Pro.  Power users want (1) access to the tool to manage their system and (2) access to documentation and information to make informed decisions about whether dealer assistance is required.  Anything else is a bonus.

You can solve a traffic problem by starting with a road and a toll booth.  You don't have to build a eight lane super heighway.

Are their costs associated with opening Pro to non-dealers?  Of course.   But the infrastructure is already there.  It might be as easy as having set up a dealer account especially for Non-dealer Pro users and just having access to support checking that dealer code.  If your license is managed by this dealer account, no support.  Or add a flag to license type for individual dealers that does the same thing - non-dealer?  No access to any support or any other customer system (unless that customer permits access as they do today).

 

 

[jfh]

47 minutes ago, thegreatheed said:

I totally agree that the cost of support is VASTLY underestimated.

 

Quote

Supporting tens (or hundreds) of thousands of untrained, inexperienced homeowners would require an exponential increase in support costs.

 

I absolutely agree.  But licensing a software tool is FAR different that providing support for the entire C4 ecosystem.

I want the license.   That addresses the fundamental issue of not being able to work on my own system.

 

Having access to support would be nice, but that IS NOT the issue and has little to do with opening up access to Pro.

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, jfh said:

Who says you have to expand the help desk?    That's a totally different offering.  It would be nice, but impractical.

Start with licensing Pro.  Nothing else.   No access by non-dealers to the help desk.  If you need the help desk, work through your dealer.    Charge an optional subscription fee to allow non-dealers read only access to the existing dealer forums and knowledge base and you probably eliminate the need for that support avenue anyway.   The people that will use Pro are not the type that's going to want/demand/need help desk support.

Using potential support costs and only looking at gold plated support standards to kill a project is a corporate tactic that's been around forever.  Very few software products provide 24x7 unlimited support anymore.  For the reasons you mention, it's costly.  Trust me, I know the issues.  I have designed corporate support systems. They are money pits.  Break even and you're a genius.  Turn a profit and you're probably the next CEO.  

The typical C4 customer will never license Pro.  Power users want (1) access to the tool to manage their system and (2) access to documentation and information to make informed decisions about whether dealer assistance is required.  Anything else is a bonus.

It has been talked about ad nauseam around here but the access to Composer Pro has nothing to do with support and everything to do with the dealers jumping ship to another product if customers had access to the program. I understand why C4 would be worried about losing dealers but I think in the end they would lose very few who do quality work.

[jfh]

16 minutes ago, therockhr said:

It has been talked about ad nauseam around here but the access to Composer Pro has nothing to do with support and everything to do with the dealers jumping ship to another product if customers had access to the program. I understand why C4 would be worried about losing dealers but I think in the end they would lose very few who do quality work.

Really?

Those are very short-sighted dealers.   I'm sure the good dealers would be glad to see them go and happily absorb tge existing customer base.  If that's really the reason C4 doesn't do it, then that things are worse for them that it seems.

[Audio Obsessions]

Ultimately, I believe that composer express should become the consumer tool, not composer pro. I also feel that they likely have that in mind, yet this is only my own opinion. But even this will require a support platform, which honestly needs to be developed either way. I am all for a support line with paid subscription, i.e. 4-Sight plus... $20/month, with support?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jfh]

What can you do with Express than you can't do with HE?  Or maybe a better question would be when would Pro be required if you had HE and Express?

[msgreenf]

express allows you to add devices, rename devices, most things you can do in Pro.

[therockhr]

9 minutes ago, jfh said:

What can you do with Express than you can't do with HE?  Or maybe a better question would be when would Pro be required if you had HE and Express?

http://www.cepro.com/article/control4_composer_express_slashes_install_time_reduces_home_automation_cost

Composer Express lets you add certain devices through an IOS or Android. Dealer only. This came out around the same time as Pyng.

[therockhr]

Just now, msgreenf said:

express allows you to add devices, rename devices, most things you can do in Pro.

Does Express let you add and change connections for AV devices? 

[msgreenf]

Just now, therockhr said:

Does Express let you add and change connections for AV devices? 

yes

[therockhr]

7 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

yes

So what are the main things that can't be done in Express that can be done in Pro?

[jfh]

Then what's left exclusive to Pro?

Detective Suite, some network tools - what else?

 

If I can swap out a piece of equipment, change connections and bindings, rename/move stuff in a project, install something new, delete or replace a driver, I'm good with HE and Express ...

[msgreenf]

1 minute ago, therockhr said:

So what are the main things that can't be done in Express that can be done in Pro?

you cant do programming in express.  Express is meant for walking around the house, adding devices, identifying them and binding them. 

There is esentially no "programming" tab.  

express isn't a replacement for pro. 

[therockhr]

3 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

you cant do programming in express.  Express is meant for walking around the house, adding devices, identifying them and binding them. 

There is esentially no "programming" tab.  

express isn't a replacement for pro. 

Right but when it comes to most AV integration there is no programming to be done. The bindings within the drivers take care of it.

Can it add any type of device like even non-c4 gear like AV receivers, Lutron hubs, security panels, etc?

[South Africa C4 user]

Express plus HE is virtually equal to Pro so I really don't see C4 opening Express up to the end user... Don't get me wrong, I would love them to ?

[msgreenf]

9 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Right but when it comes to most AV integration there is no programming to be done. The bindings within the drivers take care of it.

Can it add any type of device like even non-c4 gear like AV receivers, Lutron hubs, security panels, etc?

you can add any drivers from a dropbox or the online driver database.

[msgreenf]

9 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Express plus HE is virtually equal to Pro so I really don't see C4 opening Express up to the end user... Don't get me wrong, I would love them to ?

agree. it allows bindings. adding devices and renaming.  THe main things you can't do in HE.