wappinghigh Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 "That's not the right way to think about it," Fadell says. "People don't buy platforms. They buy one product at a time that somehow differentiates itself from every other product in their life. And then they move onto the next one. And the next one. You need to make standalone, great products, and if they can eventually all talk to each other 10 or 20 years down the line, then great. " This is 100% CORRECT.... 100%... Moving to a new house, this is exactly what I am doing again.. Even though I am an ex Control4 user (and I actually loved the Control 4 "platform")..here I am doing exactly what Mr Fadell is describing (again)..like I did the first time around 5 years ago ... All over again, I'm now sourcing locks, CCTV cameras, a Thermostat, an alarm panel... BEFORE considering whether or not I layer Control4 over the top again...Sure.. I'm trying to find out it this or that has a good C4 driver.."just in case"...(because I'm an ex C4 nutcase).. But basically in the long run I'm doing Exactly what he says.. Go ahead. Call me stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 ...and the reason is each individual product needs to have a specific design for it's individual task... the lock has to fit and look good and secure the door how I want. The thermostat has to look good and be easy to use and work with the heater.. the CCTV cameras have to show the right angle....the alarm panel has to be guaranteend no false alarms...The next music system I buy has to play my hirez files.. the light switch design has to pass the wife factor...and on and on it goes.. .. This is exactly what I do.. and I'm not changing the way I do things because its the ONLY way to make it work (in the long run)... And the problem with the current C4 model is there is NO way a dealer can stock, or have knowledge on every up to date bit of tech..NO WAY.... Neither can they have access to all the other appropriate trades to put it all together.. A great HA project has to be designed like this ...getting the C4 dealer to then come in "over the top".. It's the only way it will fly in my home... This is precisely why future customers need to be able to source up to date "driver lists", and preamble "how to put together" a Control4 home handouts, and links from the webpage etc etc.. And why they need to be able to easy swap out one bit of tech quickly for an updated version.. Mr Fadell is 100% correct.. Anyway. Nobody listens around here.. Looks like not much has changed.. Pity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Listen up. He is 100% correct. People DON'T buy platforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 The problem with the line of thought is that he states people want products, not platforms. Then he goes on to 'develop' a platform that incorporates those products - much like C4, Crestron, Savant etc etc. Assuming he is correct however, that 'platform' is going to be based ON a 'product' (AppleTV for example). Nothing guarantees that iOS (to use an example) is going to be around for a very long time - because someone comes along with a better 'product' then AppleTV, iPad and iPhone. Feel free to replace the Apple units with Google/Android equivalents, or RIM/Blackberry to drive the point home. The 'advantage' of a separate 3rd party 'platform' is that it can incorporate all these 'products' while not being (as) dependent - whether that 3rd party is/will be Control4, Crestron, Savant or someone else (including separate divisions of Apple/Google) is another question. THAT'S the part I'm not overly exited about when we get home-automation on an AppleTV.CyK..as usual you are logical and informative.. you are correct..to a point.. Control4 *could* have just been the 3rd party "platform" to take over peoples houses and rule the HA world.. It's that good a 3rd party platform to layer "over the top".. I know. I've used it.. the problem has NEVER been the product.. It's always been about HOW it's sold to people, how drivers are added and sourced and HOW the platform it's handed over to them so they can take over and run and upgrade it themselves.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Can you PLEASE get it in your heads... it's NOT the product. The Control4 platform is great. It's superb, Please. PLEASE listen up.. Somebody. ANYBODY! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I agree. The product is great. The model is horrible. Need to switch out a TV in my gym - I guess I'll pay the dealer the 100-200 he is going to charge to "program" it into the system. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 That simple definition of All-in being one business line does not apply to Tech Giants. With that definition Apple could only make PCs, iPads, or phones, software, TV's, iTunes etc. but not all at the same time. Being large enough to leverage ALL of their technology is what makes them deadly to niche companies like Control4 which is possibly why Control4 is busy buying up companies like Extra Veggies and CardAccess. If Apple or Google bought them C4 would soon be without drivers and many devices. Do you see where they end up? Control4 and Crestron NEED to support Homekit and Google to survive for long, and this means opening up their platform and Business model. Control4 needs to grow its user base very rapidly, but that will simply not happen with the status quo. There are not enough dealers to handle this growth and even if there were 10X more dealers, consumers do not like the business model. It's a pain in the ass, expensive and should not be necessary in 2014. The stagnation of HA odoption by consumers has created Apple and Googles entry opportunity. They have smelled the blood in the water and are circling.....Yes. This seems a very good summary of the current status quo to me. Pity. It's not like Control4 haven't had their opportunity. But it seems to me the opportunity is fading fast. What amazes me is how stubborn they are for such a small outfit. Usually small caps are nimble, quick, innovative, lean mean competitive fighting machines. And it's the monoliths that are the stoical ones. I think I have worked out what's going on here. Control4 are afraid of change, because the current model has worked great to this point in time.. Up till now It's made a few people a WHOLE lot of money. The big question is can this continue? A few weeks back I got a guru business valuation guy to take a look at the c4 balance sheet and financials for me. I wanted to find out if he thought it's a going concern and maybe worth a bit of a gamble at current share prices. "Take a snap shot" I said, and get back to me. He had no pre-conceptions of the business or knowledge of things like said around here.. And you know what he said? It's NOT going under.. more to the point, he said Control4 is a GREAT business. That's because the business model locks people in. I get that. But he was looking at past financials. What he didn't understand is how this business model is starting to THWART growth...( Now that the playing field has shifted with Apple and Google and all things tech based on internet commerce)....There is the opportunity right now for Control4 to open up a bit to boost growth.. That's what they need to do.. They could have their cake and eat it (if the want)..but you are correct VAMP: They need to do this FAST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 ^ Am I making any sense here? Is anybody listening>? LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qVAMPIREp Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 ^ Am I making any sense here? Is anybody listening>? LOL!You make total sense to the system owners and those who are objective. What you are doing with your new home is the way HA is going! No more "Shackles" of servitude to dealers or HA companies. My hardware, my home, NO MORE CONTROL FOR Dealers!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanmark Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 CEPro's Julie Jacobsen (20+ year HA journalist) is also acknowledging things are changing with her new article (posted just before the Revolv acquisition by Nest) : 2014: The Year Everything Changed in Home Automation : Higher-end home automation comes down market and DIY-friendly. It's about time.The article closes with this line: "Brace yourself for a new way of doing business". RE: platform vs product. I agree with the argument that consumers are snapping up clever products. Top of mind examples include: Philips Hue, Nest, August door locks (has 60,000 preorders!), Belkin WeMo etc... Owners of these products like them just they way they are... and they'll like them even more when they interoperate (via HomeKit or whatever). There's a good Forbes article about Nest's acquisition of Revolv... which is a little clearer on the product vs platform comments than the original Fast Company article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/aarontilley/2014/10/24/googles-nest-acquires-smart-home-hub-maker-revolv/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I think that the higher end systems require professionals to install and many will call Joe dealer for changes to their system. Does that mean C4 should shut out everyone who wants to change out a switch or a TV or a lock?? I have a friend who has had access to pro for a year and the "complicated use" part is overblown and all hype. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qVAMPIREp Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Great links Urbanmark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 I think that the higher end systems require professionals to install and many will call Joe dealer for changes to their system. Does that mean C4 should shut out everyone who wants to change out a switch or a TV or a lock?? I have a friend who has had access to pro for a year and the "complicated use" part is overblown and all hype.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Composer pro is in no way complicated use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 ^ LOL.. so the message has to get back to HQ to tell them to pull Composer Express? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Composer Pro isn't hard to use, it's just easy to screw up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 And the problem with the current C4 model is there is NO way a dealer can stock, or have knowledge on every up to date bit of tech..NO WAY.... Neither can they have access to all the other appropriate trades to put it all together.. A great HA project has to be designed like this ...getting the C4 dealer to then come in "over the top".. It's the only way it will fly in my home... This is precisely why future customers need to be able to source up to date "driver lists", and preamble "how to put together" a Control4 home handouts, and links from the webpage etc etc.. And why they need to be able to easy swap out one bit of tech quickly for an updated version.. There are dealers who *do* have knowledge on most every up to date bit of tech (and when homeowners ask about something they haven't heard about, they can typically figure it out pretty quickly). Granted, that's certainly not all Control4 (or even Crestron) dealers. I'd argue, however, that it's also extremely unlikely that most homeowners have knowledge on every up to date bit of tech. A good dealer can help with that. I'm not going to get pulled into arguing about Control4's business model, etc... As a public company, that's something I'm not really supposed to do anymore. RyanE P.S. There are a lot of valid points, and as mentioned previously, Control4 management does listen to things being said on this forum (although I don't know specifically if they're monitoring this thread). For myself, I appreciate the candor. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 ^ I'd "like" your thread Ryan. But I've run out of likes! Awesome comments. Thanks for the reply. Wap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Thanks. I'm trying to up my level of discourse after reading this recently: http://blog.codinghorror.com/what-if-we-could-weaponize-empathy/ RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 ^ Sure. That's a good link you've posted there. Have a good one today! Spring is here. Sun is out! All is good ! There is immense change afoot as Ms Jacobsen points out. Let's think positive. A new dawn approaches. May all involved at Control4 embrace change for the good of the platform. Rock on C4! Wap. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Composer Pro isn't hard to use, it's just easy to screw up.That is the same scare tactic that has been described here over and over again. Most of the dealers don't know how to use it either but they get to charge for it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 That is the same scare tactic that has been described here over and over again. Most of the dealers don't know how to use it either but they get to charge for it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk It's not a scare tactic, it's reality - and yes there are dealers (or they were dealers) that mess thing up too. I've fixed plenty of them. And yes I charged to do it. There IS a reason dealers MUST get some level of certification (and maintain it). There's also a reason there are always some at least that FAIL that certification. Now it's been years for me (and I may not be representitive at all anymore) - but when I went 6 people passed. 2 Of them were myself and a colleague from my company at the time, 2 more were second attempts. Out of 20+. The "friend" mentioned may have an easy time using it, don't know him/her so can't say. Problem is that lots of people already mess up systems BADLY with HE, add bindings to that mix and that could get 4x more of a mess.That may not hold for a large portion of the people on here, but I'll point out once again that people on here are NOT the "99%" by a long shot. It could be argued that perhaps a different program is required that allows adding or at least changing/swapping basic devices - but 'just' opening up the Pro version as it is right now is not the way to go IMHO.Either it would have to be some upgraded form of HE or it would mean an overhaul of the program as it is. No selling of some sort of ComposerPro won't work with a bunch of small print saying it's at your own risk - you cannot 'sell' unsupported software, nor can you 'pick and choose' what end-users you sell it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 ^.......yep and that's why people don't buy "platforms".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_man Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 I will go live in a cave and give up all my gadgets and toys before I let Apple into my home, let alone automate my home. HA will be very incomplete with companies like that. Buy everything Apple or nothing will work. Look what is happening with Apple Pay - lots of big retailers are saying 'no, thanks' because of their closed ecosystem and desire to keep all the money for themselves. This a sort of reassuring to me, as I think Apple sort of thought they would flex their shiny, white muscles and everyone would do what they asked. And Google...well why would google want to help me automate my home? So they can stalk me even more than they do now, learn all the intimate details of my life and direct their ads better? Creepy. C4 at least unifies the experience of all of my products into a single GUI. And they have a pretty broad spectrum of products that make it easier, lighting, amplifiers etc. but they still let me integrate all my other brands. Anyone can automate. It's the integrate part that is difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 My dealer just went out of business.... Everything was so overpriced that I stopped calling him. Can't be a great business model if dealers can't get people to sign on.Brace yourselves for the quarterly earnings report after the bell on the 30th.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 My dealer just went out of business.... Everything was so overpriced that I stopped calling him. Can't be a great business model if dealers can't get people to sign on.Brace yourselves for the quarterly earnings report after the bell on the 30th.Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI don't think ones dealer closing is representative of c4 business...Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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