Can't begin to say how disappointed I am with this system.

[ntlord]

This entire idea that DIY users can't program this system on their own is entirely unfounded and belied by readily available evidence. The bottom line is that the dealer model is purely protectionalist play by Control4. It helps keep prices high. That is the entire point behind it. It stops and ends there.

As an initial matter, any basic internet search will tell you that the Control4 DIY community is thriving. Yet, these allegedly incompetent DIYers seem to have no problem getting their systems running, with no support, and even in face of active countermeasures from Control4. 

Second, there are plenty of open source systems that are like 10 times more complicated to set up than Control4. Yet, somehow these allegedly totally incompetent DIYers manage to set these systems up.

Finally, even consumer systems work with 1000s of devices. Consider Smarthings or Vera.  Yet, these allegedly incompetent DIYers seems to use these devices to have incredibly complicated systems, even writing their own drivers. 

My point is simply this. Don't pretend for a second that DIYers can't handle setting up a system like Control4. Plenty of people can handle it. Control4 is a dealer only model because it makes them the most money and because its dealer network is entrenched.

 

 

[C4tune]

34 minutes ago, ntlord said:

This entire idea that DIY users can't program this system on their own is entirely unfounded and belied by readily available evidence. The bottom line is that the dealer model is purely protectionalist play by Control4. It helps keep prices high. That is the entire point behind it. It stops and ends there.

As an initial matter, any basic internet search will tell you that the Control4 DIY community is thriving. Yet, these allegedly incompetent DIYers seem to have no problem getting their systems running, with no support, and even in face of active countermeasures from Control4. 

Second, there are plenty of open source systems that are like 10 times more complicated to set up than Control4. Yet, somehow these allegedly totally incompetent DIYers manage to set these systems up.

Finally, even consumer systems work with 1000s of devices. Consider Smarthings or Vera.  Yet, these allegedly incompetent DIYers seems to use these devices to have incredibly complicated systems, even writing their own drivers. 

My point is simply this. Don't pretend for a second that DIYers can't handle setting up a system like Control4. Plenty of people can handle it. Control4 is a dealer only model because it makes them the most money and because its dealer network is entrenched.

 

 

 

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, ntlord said:

This entire idea that DIY users can't program this system on their own is entirely unfounded and belied by readily available evidence. The bottom line is that the dealer model is purely protectionalist play by Control4. It helps keep prices high. That is the entire point behind it. It stops and ends there.

As an initial matter, any basic internet search will tell you that the Control4 DIY community is thriving. Yet, these allegedly incompetent DIYers seem to have no problem getting their systems running, with no support, and even in face of active countermeasures from Control4. 

Second, there are plenty of open source systems that are like 10 times more complicated to set up than Control4. Yet, somehow these allegedly totally incompetent DIYers manage to set these systems up.

Finally, even consumer systems work with 1000s of devices. Consider Smarthings or Vera.  Yet, these allegedly incompetent DIYers seems to use these devices to have incredibly complicated systems, even writing their own drivers. 

My point is simply this. Don't pretend for a second that DIYers can't handle setting up a system like Control4. Plenty of people can handle it. Control4 is a dealer only model because it makes them the most money and because its dealer network is entrenched.

 

 

So you got a few options:

1) Invest in Control4 system and play by their rules
2) Go find a DIY system that suits your needs: you can look at Charmed Quark, HomeSeer or Simple Controls - all are DIY and all boost ability to do AV/Media along with lights, hvac, security, etc.  Have at it, no one is stopping you.  They are supposedly more powerful than a hub like SmartThings or Vera.
3) go build your own platform, your own business and sell the program/platform.  America is great like that, you can start your own business with a smart idea.  If there is a market place for your idea, you'll succeed and take down the competition.

It is like saying I want a Lamborghini but I do not want to pay $175,000, why can't they make a $35,000 version to compete against cheaper sports cars.  I think its in Lamborghini's best interest to make a $35,000 car.  So let me go on their site and hijack every thread asking them to make a cheaper car.  I am sure I'll find a few more to follow me and complain too.

Control4 is what it is.  They are not changing their model because a fraction of a small web community wants to change it.  You have options, go buy something else.  No one is forcing you to stick with, buy more or deal with Control4 - its a choice you made.

The original poster's major issue is NOT solved by having Composer Pro - he says his controller is messed up, others said it is networking.  How does access to Composer Pro help the original poster?

[jfh]

None of those options are practical for those that have invested tens of thousands or more on a Control4 system.

And your Lamborghini example is totally irrelevant.  The issue being discussed is the ability to update the drivers in and configuration of the system, not the cost of hardware.

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Many control systems don’t allow the end user to edit their systems its like me handing my rti and crestron file to the end user and be like do what you want with it. You just don’t don’t do it.

Control4 is one of the platforms that allow the end user to make changes in places but not everything as they could mess up their system and then it’s the dealers problem to sort it. Which means more headache. Just be thankful that you can do what you can with composer he and you should always depend on your dealer to add new drivers, do updates and changes because if they mess something up it’s their fault not yours.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[eggzlot]

6 minutes ago, jfh said:

None of those options are practical for those that have invested tens of thousands or more on a Control4 system.

And your Lamborghini example is totally irrelevant.  The issue being discussed is the ability to update the drivers in and configuration of the system, not the cost of hardware.

You knew the limits of c4 when investing.  If you wanted more there are options

and my car example is complaing about a business model and business decision of targeting a market segment.  I think it’s relevant. 

[Hardware]

1 minute ago, jfh said:

None of those options are practical for those that have invested tens of thousands or more on a Control4 system.

And your Lamborghini example is totally irrelevant.  The issue being discussed is the ability to update the drivers in and configuration of the system, not the cost of hardware.

Please tell me about the "tens of thousands or more" Control4 system you are talking about. How much of that is 3rd party hardware? Wire? Installation labor? People are quick to detail the "cost" of the pro system when the Control4 intelligence only a small part. 

[Engineerisaac]

This thread left planet earth around page 4.

[jfh]

7 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

You knew the limits of c4 when investing.  

 

I explicitly asked the dealer if I would be able to update my system, change TVs, etc. He said "Yes, you have to buy Composer.  It's a one time charge,  but then you can do anything we can do.  It's a good deal if you like to do things yourself".

 

Obviously I didn't know enough at the time to know that wasn't true.  My bad.  Imagine what I felt like when I went to add to swap out a TV and realized that I couldn't do something that simple.   

[Hardware]

2 minutes ago, jfh said:

 

I explicitly asked the dealer if I would be able to update my system, change TVs, etc. He said "Yes, you have to buy Composer.  It's a one time charge,  but then you can do anything we can do.  It's a good deal if you like to do things yourself".

 

Obviously I didn't know enough at the time to know that wasn't true.  My bad.  Imagine what I felt like when I went to add to swap out a TV and realized that I couldn't do something that simple.   

and people have brought that up. There are bad "professionals" in every industry. The problem is the dealer, not Control4. They aren't employees of Control4. They privately owned and operated.

[jfh]

6 minutes ago, Hardware said:

and people have brought that up. There are bad "professionals" in every industry. The problem is the dealer, not Control4. They aren't employees of Control4. They privately owned and operated.

Of course.  But that tainted my view of Control4 early on.  

In this case it's both the dealer (for misleading me) and Control4 (for not licensing Pro).  You can't have it both ways - if you are going to insist on a dealer model, than you have to have some level of responsibility for your dealers.  To the vast majority of potential customers, the dealer IS Control4.  

 

But this is a tangent off a tangent.   Licensed access to Pro for non-dealers who are willing to pay for training/certification and want to spend the time and effort to manage their own systems would be beneficial to both customers and Control4.   I haven't read a single response that disputes that point.   Will it happen?  Almost certainly not.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't.

 

 

[eggzlot]

27 minutes ago, jfh said:

 

I explicitly asked the dealer if I would be able to update my system, change TVs, etc. He said "Yes, you have to buy Composer.  It's a one time charge,  but then you can do anything we can do.  It's a good deal if you like to do things yourself".

 

Obviously I didn't know enough at the time to know that wasn't true.  My bad.  Imagine what I felt like when I went to add to swap out a TV and realized that I couldn't do something that simple.   

Well devil is in the details, that is why if I am making an important purchase (important, doesnt have to be expensive) I'll ask questions, read reviews, ask for referrals, read blogs/forums online, etc.  

Either way, as I stated several posts ago, I'd rather C4 try to weed out the bad dealers - either those who give misinformation, cannot program properly, do not have the networking chops, etc and then just run a tighter and better dealer network.  And I am sure they try and that is no easy task.

[eggzlot]

9 minutes ago, jfh said:

Of course.  But that tainted my view of Control4 early on.  

In this case it's both the dealer (for misleading me) and Control4 (for not licensing Pro).  You can't have it both ways - if you are going to insist on a dealer model, than you have to have some level of responsibility for your dealers.  To the vast majority of potential customers, the dealer IS Control4.  

 

But this is a tangent off a tangent.   Licensed access to Pro for non-dealers who are willing to pay for training/certification and want to spend the time and effort to manage their own systems would be beneficial to both customers and Control4.   I haven't read a single response that disputes that point.   Will it happen?  Almost certainly not.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't.

 

 

maybe they are trying to position themselves as a premium product, not a DIY product.  Which is why they have a dealer network and will stick to that model.  When you have a business you cannot always be everything to everyone.  They have a market segment and that is where they market their product.  If its not for you, its not for you and that's ok.

[Hardware]

1 minute ago, jfh said:

Of course.  But that tainted my view of Control4 early on.  

In this case it's both the dealer (for misleading me) and Control4 (for not licensing Pro).  You can't have it both ways - if you are going to insist on a dealer model, than you have to have some level of responsibility for your dealers.  To the vast majority of potential customers, the dealer IS Control4.  

 

But this is a tangent off a tangent.   Licensed access to Pro for non-dealers who are willing to pay for training/certification and want to spend the time and effort to manage their own systems would be beneficial to both customers and Control4.   I haven't read a single response that disputes that point.   Will it happen?  Almost certainly not.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't.

 

 

That is a load of BS. I doubt those installers for your system had Control4 shirts on. Did you write a check to Control4? You don't think your local food market is run by Pepsi do you?

No, it wouldn't and no It shouldn't. As people have stated... they have broken their own systems with the limited amount of system adjustments Control4 has given in the past. You already have the ability to change the things you should be able to change. There is more to automation than just the programming. The fact that again, we are talking about professionals who still can't do the job correctly. A large percentage of the people buying Control4 have trouble getting their wifi to work. You might be able to build a shed in your backyard...but building every piece of a large home with all its small parts and feature/functions takes a lot of understanding and experience. 

[jfh]

You are missing the point.  Having a dealer network and licensing the software to a vetted subset of non-dealers so they can control their own equipment are not mutually exclusive.  I'm not advocating (and don't think I have in the past) abolishing the dealer model.

[Hardware]

I think you are missing the point..and if the Dealerships are vetted and yet we have problems, what do you think will happen with the vetted DYI group?  It is a slippery slope for a very small amount of end users. 

[jfh]

2 minutes ago, Hardware said:

That is a load of BS. I doubt those installers for your system had Control4 shirts on. Did you write a check to Control4? You don't think your local food market is run by Pepsi do you?

No, it wouldn't and no It shouldn't. As people have stated... they have broken their own systems with the limited amount of system adjustments Control4 has given in the past. You already have the ability to change the things you should be able to change. There is more to automation than just the programming. The fact that again, we are talking about professionals who still can't do the job correctly. A large percentage of the people buying Control4 have trouble getting their wifi to work. You might be able to build a shed in your backyard...but building every piece of a large home with all its small parts and feature/functions takes a lot of understanding and experience. 

 

Wow.  You went way off the deep end.        If you don't understand the concepts of brand marketing and awareness, licensing and franchising, I sure as hell hope you are not a Control4 dealer.

 

If someone with Composer (HE or Pro) breaks their system, that their fault/problem and they should be expected to pay a professional to fix it.  Period.  End of story.  

What you seem not to grasp is that there are some people that are not Control4 dealers that have the background, interest and ability to use Pro properly, perhaps more than some "professionals" and are willing to be trained and certified by Control4 to do so.

 

Someone that can't set up their wifi certainly isn't a likely candidate to use Pro.   I would venture that most people who have Control4 systems don't have any interested in HE or Pro.  But failing to acknowledge that there is a subset of HE users that are perfectly capable of handling Pro on their own systems is simply uneducated ignorance or dealer protectionism.

[jfh]

10 minutes ago, Hardware said:

I think you are missing the point..and if the Dealerships are vetted and yet we have problems, what do you think will happen with the vetted DYI group?  It is a slippery slope for a very small amount of end users. 

No, it isn't.  There is a big difference between a customer screwing up his own system and a dealer screwing up multiple customers systems.   

 

And the logic of "since some dealers can't do it properly, no non-dealer can" is pretty weak.

[Engineerisaac]

Remember that one time when that guy just came here with a networking issue...

Round 7 of 12 *Ding!* *Ding!*

[Hardware]

 

3 minutes ago, jfh said:

If someone with Composer (HE or Pro) breaks their system, that their fault/problem and they should be expected to pay a professional to fix it.  Period.  End of story.  

Except it wouldn't be would it. I know that. Dealers know that. Control4 knows that. Users don't have the experience to understand that. 

I also didn't fail to acknowledge anything. Companies don't restructure because a few users want the ability. There is logic and reason to automation, not just want. 

3 minutes ago, jfh said:

No, it isn't.  There is a big difference between a customer screwing up his own system and a dealer screwing up multiple customers systems.   

 

And the logic of "since some dealers can't do it properly, no non-dealer can" is pretty weak.

Spoken like someone who doesn't get it. 

[Hardware]

21 minutes ago, jfh said:

 

Wow.  You went way off the deep end.        If you don't understand the concepts of brand marketing and awareness, licensing and franchising, I sure as hell hope you are not a Control4 dealer.

and for the record...if I would be a dealer that means I am on here helping for absolutely no gain except YOU as user, just like any dealer on here. Considering there lots of resources for professionals otherwise.

[Engineerisaac]

I don't think anybody is questioning your intelligence level.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like your responses come from the seat of a customer who feels like he's been wronged by misinformation

 

[C4tune]

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/m5ejtn/the-centurion-package

 

Any product that gets installed poorly is going to reflect poorly on the company. C4 mitigates by only allowing their dealers access to Pro.

 

If you have enough money to buy a system, just pay for official training or bribe a current dealer.

 

or do what I did and work for installer for a few months until they like you enough to give you access. 

[ntlord]

2 hours ago, eggzlot said:

is like saying I want a Lamborghini but I do not want to pay $175,000, why can't they make a $35,000 version to compete against cheaper sports cars.  I think its in Lamborghini's best interest to make a $35,000 car.  So let me go on their site and hijack every thread asking them to make a cheaper car.  I am sure I'll find a few more to follow me and complain too

You are making my point for me because your analogy is terrible. Let me modify it to be closer to my point. 

Say your day job is designing engines for VW. But you’ve always wanted to own a lambo, and hey it’s not blasphemy, after all, lambo is owned by VW. You go to the dealership, you know more about the lambo than the dealer. You customize it to your liking, and buy it for 200k. Then after you buy it you find the only way to do an oil change is to bring it to the dealer. And it’s not for any mechanical reason, but because lambo has a software lock on the car stopping your from doing your oil changes. Now, as an engine designer, you are more than capable of the performing your own oil change. But the arrogant lambo dealer tells you that the reason for the software lock is not because they want to make more money from you, but rather because they don’t trust you, a person who just paid 200k for a vehicle, to perform an oil change.

[therockhr]

 

36 minutes ago, Engineerisaac said:

Remember that one time when that guy just came here with a networking issue...

Round 7 of 12 *Ding!* *Ding!*

The conversation changed. This is what it is now.