Can't begin to say how disappointed I am with this system.

[88Tiger88]

On 4/21/2018 at 5:46 PM, thecodeman said:

I'm sorry to hear that you're having issues. It sounds like a mix of the dealer giving you access to pre-released product (the Intercom app, which is still in closed beta), the dealer not setting expectations correctly for dealer sold/supported automation hardware and software (and what their support is, as the dealer is the front line - Control4 does not have end-user facing support), the dealer not taking steps to change the default password (which can be done easily), and perhaps a known issue existing with UBNT network products not correctly supporting PIM.

"UBNT Does not support PIM multicasting.  Only supports IGMP which causes issues such as Control4 devices that fall offline due to UDP keep-alive being blocked through multicast routing. These issues manifest most commonly in large systems with dual transport devices ie. Matrix switches Tuners, Amplifiers, and Centralized Lighting."

From their development team in an email: 
"PIM support is lacking on USG and EdgeRouter at the moment, so point understood there, but APs and switches are only bridging and switching respectively and should not have any caveats with PIM - at least that we're aware of." 

Here are some forum posts on Ubiquiti that explains this more on their end: 
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMAX-Feature-Requests/PIM-in-EdgeSwitch-OS-Please/idi-p/2202774
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Feature-Requests/REQUEST-PIM-for-EdgeMax-and-Unifi-products/idi-p/2286033
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMAX-Feature-Requests/REQUEST-PIM-for-EdgeMax-products/idi-p/2286041
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMAX-Feature-Requests/Multicast-Support-PIM-SM-SSM-PIM-over-GRE-tunnel/idi-p/753026
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeRouter/Is-multicast-PIM-SM-SSM-support-planned-Please-respond-i-really/td-p/754594
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeSwitch/Multicast-routing-in-network-of-switches/td-p/1873625/page/2
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeRouter/Request-PIM-DM-broadcast-capabilities-for-Edgemax/td-p/755804
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/airOS-Software-Configuration/pim-routing-multicast-broadcasting-IGMPv2/td-p/358559
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeRouter/Multicast-routing/td-p/484349

Hopefully, you can work with your dealer and get it sorted out with their involvement of C4 tech support as needed.

Hummm....this is seems to be similar issues with my upgrade to EA5 with my Apple AirPort Extreme router....my network keep drop connection after upgrade to EA5 along with few additi0oan item like DS2 and etc....  so means I need to upgrade router to support PIM multicast ???

[88Tiger88]

On 4/21/2018 at 5:46 PM, thecodeman said:

I'm sorry to hear that you're having issues. It sounds like a mix of the dealer giving you access to pre-released product (the Intercom app, which is still in closed beta), the dealer not setting expectations correctly for dealer sold/supported automation hardware and software (and what their support is, as the dealer is the front line - Control4 does not have end-user facing support), the dealer not taking steps to change the default password (which can be done easily), and perhaps a known issue existing with UBNT network products not correctly supporting PIM.

"UBNT Does not support PIM multicasting.  Only supports IGMP which causes issues such as Control4 devices that fall offline due to UDP keep-alive being blocked through multicast routing. These issues manifest most commonly in large systems with dual transport devices ie. Matrix switches Tuners, Amplifiers, and Centralized Lighting."

From their development team in an email: 
"PIM support is lacking on USG and EdgeRouter at the moment, so point understood there, but APs and switches are only bridging and switching respectively and should not have any caveats with PIM - at least that we're aware of." 

Here are some forum posts on Ubiquiti that explains this more on their end: 
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMAX-Feature-Requests/PIM-in-EdgeSwitch-OS-Please/idi-p/2202774
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Feature-Requests/REQUEST-PIM-for-EdgeMax-and-Unifi-products/idi-p/2286033
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMAX-Feature-Requests/REQUEST-PIM-for-EdgeMax-products/idi-p/2286041
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMAX-Feature-Requests/Multicast-Support-PIM-SM-SSM-PIM-over-GRE-tunnel/idi-p/753026
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeRouter/Is-multicast-PIM-SM-SSM-support-planned-Please-respond-i-really/td-p/754594
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeSwitch/Multicast-routing-in-network-of-switches/td-p/1873625/page/2
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeRouter/Request-PIM-DM-broadcast-capabilities-for-Edgemax/td-p/755804
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/airOS-Software-Configuration/pim-routing-multicast-broadcasting-IGMPv2/td-p/358559
https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeRouter/Multicast-routing/td-p/484349

Hopefully, you can work with your dealer and get it sorted out with their involvement of C4 tech support as needed.

Humm...this seems very similar to issues I had with my Apple AirPort Extreme router drop out connections periodically after upgrade to EA5 along with NAS drive and few other new devices.  So. I should upgrade router to Pakedge RK-1 or MikroTik router which supports PIM?

[CRE2000]

If you want i can help you trouble shoot? PM me

 

CR

[flyingron]

Well, it failed again and I held it busted until the dealer could get in to look at it.   Despite the guesswork here and the maligning of the user not knowing the network, there appears to have been absolutely nothing wrong with the network.   One of the drivers (I didn't get which one) was failing and crocking the EA5.    Hopefully this will end it.   I did get the dealer to turn up the debug logging just on the case this happens again we'll have some more data.

 

 

[Pounce]

Sort of anti climactic to not know the real issue in some detail.

 

I wonder if that mystery driver was failing due to a network problem? j/k 

 

Glad your dealer got it sorted.

[Second Empire]

This problem just bit me in the arse...

I just purchased a home with a few EA controllers and matrix amps and some other stuff. The network gear/hubs/routers left with the previous owners. The dealer informed me this afternoon that my Ubiquity home network (routers, switches, APs), which I was going to install into the new house, is completely incompatible with Control4. He would require me to purchase new network gear though him before he'd even come out an give me control of the system. Good lord. What a wonderful bit of technology this is.

I was hoping to at least stream some music in this place while we moved in and sorted things out. Try out the system a bit before deciding if I'd like to use it or not. It seems the choice has been made for me. The dealer indicates that the equipment has no value to him if I don't use it. Recycle bin.

[zaphod]

Find a different dealer.  Maybe even one of the online dealers here.

There is no reason why Ubiquiti will not work with C4, but apparently it is not on the "approved" list of networking products.  Pakedge is on the approved list, it is owned by C4 and sold by your dealer. If your C4 sells you Pakedge and C4 equipment he makes some revenue.  If he makes you rip out all of your Ubiquiti stuff and drop a few Gs on Pakedge hardware he makes a lot more money.

But look at it from your dealer's perspective.  If he just sets up your system and maybe sells you a little bit more equipment he makes a few hundred bucks.  He wants to sell $10s of thousands of equipment, take a cut on the hardware sales and on hourly setup/programming fees.  If he is busy doing full scale projects then he is not interested in small scale projects like you.

[jfh]

9 minutes ago, zaphod said:

But look at it from your dealer's perspective.  If he just sets up your system and maybe sells you a little bit more equipment he makes a few hundred bucks.  He wants to sell $10s of thousands of equipment, take a cut on the hardware sales and on hourly setup/programming fees.  If he is busy doing full scale projects then he is not interested in small scale projects like you.

 

This is the biggest problem with the dealer model.  It focuses on high margin hardware sales, not optimized systems and happy customers.

 

Control4 has a customer ready and willing to try their stuff and a dealer that wants a payday without a happy customer.

[livitup]

Or the model works because AV dealer/installers who are not network engineers have access to a product line that is fully 100% supported by Control4 eliminating the finger pointing when a problem comes up.

I’ve been a network engineer for over 15 years, am Cisco certified and was 1000% sure my system’s problems were not network related. Guess what... they were.

Most AV installers are not certified 15 year veterans of the network engineering world - if they were your system would cost quadruple what it does.

Control4 has stated Ubiquiti isn’t supported. It’s up to the dealer to decide if they will support an installation with network gear on the “do not use” list. If the homeowner wants to use Ubiquiti and Control4, they can keep shopping until they find a dealer willing to support such a setup (there are many).

[knowitall]

So you called 1 dealer and are giving up? Someone will take your money, call someone else. 

[jfh]

Unless the dealer warrants they will cover the cost of time spent diagnosing a problem on "supported" equipment, that's a distinction without a difference.

 

As an informed customer, I expect to be responsible for costs incurred because I want to do something a particular way and he recommends against it (for whatever reason).   But to say I MUST buy x or you won't don't anything seems extreme.

[jfh]

4 minutes ago, knowitall said:

So you called 1 dealer and are giving up? Someone will take your money, call someone else. 

 

The dealer represents Control4.  If a customer that hasn't had prior experience with C4 has a bad experience with a dealer, they are more likely than not to associate the bad experience with not only the dealer, but the brand too making it less likely they will spend the time to figure out if the problem is the dealer or Control4.   This is taught in marketing 101.

[livitup]

Unless the dealer warrants they will cover the cost of time spent diagnosing a problem on "supported" equipment, that's a distinction without a difference.
 
As an informed customer, I expect to be responsible for costs incurred because I want to do something a particular way and he recommends against it (for whatever reason).   But to say I MUST buy x or you won't don't anything seems extreme.

It is extreme, but it’s the choice of your dealer, not Control4.

I gather you’re in the UK, so things might be different there, but in the US it is common for dealers to warrant the operation of a system, including free troubleshooting and repair, if it is built using equipment the dealer specifies and installs.

My dealer agreed to install a Control4 system and use my network gear. When I experienced problems they assisted me in troubleshooting, including involving Control4 corporate tech support. When they were able to determine it was my network equipment that was causing the problems, they (rightfully) washed their hands of it. Had it been their network equipment, they would have resolved it.

Control4 has some very unique network requirements that the system depends on and dealers expect to work. They are not trained or qualified to troubleshoot and resolve problems resulting from non-complaint networks. Control4 purchased a network equipment provider specifically so they could give that guarantee you seek.

[livitup]

 
The dealer represents Control4.  If a customer that hasn't had prior experience with C4 has a bad experience with a dealer, they are more likely than not to associate the bad experience with not only the dealer, but the brand too making it less likely they will spend the time to figure out if the problem is the dealer or Control4.   This is taught in marketing 101.

And to continue on that point, if the dealer, knowing his networking abilities are minimal, agrees to install a product that has very specific network requirements, and that system fails, you’re also going to blame Control4, not Ubiquiti.

Again, there are plenty of dealers who will install Control4 on customer managed networks - in fact they are probably the majority. But I bet the dealer you called has been burned too many times by customers unwilling to accept that their network might be the cause of a problem.

[jfh]

10 minutes ago, livitup said:

And to continue on that point, if the dealer, knowing his networking abilities are minimal, agrees to install a product that has very specific network requirements, and that system fails, you’re also going to blame Control4, not Ubiquiti.

 

I agree.  

 

But then give customers the network requirements.  I was never able to get that info from the dealer.  And if the dealer doesn't have good network people they probably don't have anyone that knows or cares about the requirements either (other than perhaps checking to see if it's on a supported list)

The real problem is that "network" is pretty much a black box to a vast majority of C4 dealers (which certainly a factor in the Pakedge acquisition).

[Second Empire]

The Dealer certainly made it seem like he was expressing an opinion I'd find elsewhere in my metro area. I can say that he did mention the whole setup would be warrantied and fully supported BUT I don't need a brand new enterprise level network in my new home, certainly not one with a $100/hr consultancy rate.

This was my intro to Control4. How is a customer supposed to feel? If I need to get on-line and research in a forum about these products, just like I might for regular consumer products, then what is the point of locking me out of it and charging for the pleasure?

I just want to plug it in and see what it's doing and official channels have hit a brick wall. Not impressed.

[AK1]

13 hours ago, zaphod said:

Find a different dealer.  Maybe even one of the online dealers here.

There is no reason why Ubiquiti will not work with C4, but apparently it is not on the "approved" list of networking products.  Pakedge is on the approved list, it is owned by C4 and sold by your dealer. If your C4 sells you Pakedge and C4 equipment he makes some revenue.  If he makes you rip out all of your Ubiquiti stuff and drop a few Gs on Pakedge hardware he makes a lot more money.

But look at it from your dealer's perspective.  If he just sets up your system and maybe sells you a little bit more equipment he makes a few hundred bucks.  He wants to sell $10s of thousands of equipment, take a cut on the hardware sales and on hourly setup/programming fees.  If he is busy doing full scale projects then he is not interested in small scale projects like you.

Yep.

I worked with a client recently with an end-to-end Ubiquiti network and a PFSense router. It displayed the symptoms of devices falling offline, primarily touchscreens and DS2. We did get it all working by reviewing the settings relevant to Control4 in router, and each switch. APs have not been an issue for me anywhere. And as an aside also had to enable flow control on a rebranded Hikvision to get all cameras to display.  Where it's just Unifi APs points with other non-Unifi network equipment we have had zero problems.

[therockhr]

I don't understand what it could hurt for them to have a "Network Primer/Best Practice" document out there for end users who are interested in having a Control4 system.

[AK1]

17 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I don't understand what it could hurt for them to have a "Network Primer/Best Practice" document out there for end users who are interested in having a Control4 system.

They do. There are three relevant KB articles: recommended networking, do-not-use networking and recommended networking settings.  They are readily available via dealers and I believe have been posted on this forum a number of times.

[jfh]

29 minutes ago, AK1 said:

They do. There are three relevant KB articles: recommended networking, do-not-use networking and recommended networking settings.  They are readily available via dealers and I believe have been posted on this forum a number of times.

 

None of which are available to potential customers who want to make an evaluation.

[dcovach]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

I don't understand what it could hurt for them to have a "Network Primer/Best Practice" document out there for end users who are interested in having a Control4 system.

It's not meant to be the burden of the end user to have to source and configure the right networking equipment as the foundation for a reliable Control4 system.  Even though some end users in this forum are extremely experienced in their field of IT,  that experience alone does not guarantee that their network will be adequate (or too "smart" or too secure) to operate for Control4 reliably.

At the same time, here's a post below that will direct you towards recommended network settings and the "Do Not Use" list.  

http://www.c4forums.com/topic/26903-recommended-settings-on-routers-managed-switches-and-wireless-access-points/?tab=comments#comment-218536

[AK1]

55 minutes ago, jfh said:

 

None of which are available to potential customers who want to make an evaluation.

I think the expectation is most potential customers would be consulting with one or two dealers who would provide this. And of course there is this forum

[eggzlot]

43 minutes ago, AK1 said:

And of course there is this forum

Which i have to think is the minority?   There are 20,000 registered users on this forum.  A decent % are likely professionals -those who work for c4, dealers, driver creators, 3rd party companies who are in the ecosystem etc.  Even if all 20,000 were end users, that in the single % of all c4 homes.  I am sure someone has a better number than me but I am fairly confident there are more than 200,000 c4 installations worldwide.  Maybe there would be more installs if they were 100% DIY - but BMW would sell more cars if they had a 20,000 car to compete with an Accord, but they do not offer such a product.

We always tend to over state the cases for those on this forum, but we are the vast vast minority and the company is finding overall success in their model so they tend to go in that direction.  It must be working because if it was broken, their stock price would potentially reflect it and their quarterly earnings would not be as strong as they have been recently.

[knowitall]

When you have a C4 business you can use and install/repurpose whatever networking equipment you like. Several users on here use ubiquiti with no issues and I have done installs as well. There are KNOWN issues with ubiquiti and c4 devices,  does it happen 100% of the time? Probably not.  Does it happen? Yes.

As has been mentioned, no one wants to take over someone else’s work and have to deal with existing issues / figuring out random programming / warranty / etc  that costs $$$$  

This particular company chooses not to install ubiquiti. That is their choice. Is it from bad experience? Because it’s on the do not use list? Cus they’re trying to make money? Doesn’t matter they said no. 

Call another dealer. Sign a waiver that if networking is determine to cause the issue you will pay accordingly. 

Rip it all out and sell it

Don’t come here complaining about one particular business’ practice  

Like I said before, someone will have your money.

[Second Empire]

Update to my situation... I've made a connection with a dealer via this forum. He's identified what my goals are and is very interested in helping me achieve them remotely. No need to spend 2k on networking equipment just to boot this thing up.