Help with Motion Sensors

[Time2Jet]

 

I have a bunch of motion sensors regarding evoke lighting scenes and timers.

 

The problem is that I can be moving around a bit in the room and the lights go off and I can’t even move around the room to get them to turn back on.

 

They are older CA’s and I have them linked in at least one room (properly bound).

 

Programming is

 

When Senses Motion

If certain lights are off

>Activate On Scene

>Stop Timer

 

When Stops Sensing

Start Timer

 

Timer Expires

Activate Off Scene

 

I know I’ll get opinions on the timers (when to start, stop, etc.), but I’ve tried different ways.

 

What about starting timers on motion and resetting upon no longer sensing?

 

Any ideas are appreciated. I have them set to high sensitivity. I’m not using the motion driver timers at all.

 

 

 

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[msgreenf]

Buy this driver and stop having all the problems

https://drivercentral.io/platforms/control4-drivers/lighting/advanced-lighting-timer/

[Time2Jet]

Buy this driver and stop having all the problems

https://drivercentral.io/platforms/control4-drivers/lighting/advanced-lighting-timer/

I’ve owned it since the system was installed. I never even added it.


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[tdougray]

8 minutes ago, time2jet said:

I’ve owned it since the system was installed. I never even added it.

[msgreenf]

yeah..major face palm to me

[Time2Jet]

yeah..major face palm to me

Not at all. You’ve been telling me this for 2 months and I was sure I had it and I was right. Sitting on my server. Gahhhh... sorry.


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[dcovach]

4 hours ago, time2jet said:

 

Not at all. You’ve been telling me this for 2 months and I was sure I had it and I was right. Sitting on my server. Gahhhh... sorry.


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Considering you're unsure of how good your zigbee mesh is, how about do a test?  Create a motion true/false variable.  Program it to be true when motion starts, false when motion stops.  Go to the variable agent and watch for variable changes and at what time in contrast to when you were in the room and out of the room.  

 

How long is that occupancy timer?

[Time2Jet]

Dan - that particular timer is 10mins.

Stops on motion, starts on no motion

No timer set on the driver. Both set to highest sensitivity.

I’ve added the variables and set up push notifications for sensing motion for the two in the kitchen. They’re definitely sensing motion. Pushes have been like popcorn.

What was happening is that if one of us were washing dishes per se, the lights would turn off, but no amount of additional motion works turn them back on for a period (not sure how long, but has to leave the room and re-enter).

I think I’ll set the variable for when they stop sensing motion and see how that works. Might tell a better tale. If I’m working in the kitchen and I’m alerted the motion has stopped and I can’t get it to also alert me it saw motion again, that’d explain things. Won’t necessarily tell me why, but at least what is happening.

I’ll let this play out today, and report back.

If I’m not happy with the results, I’ll add the 3rd party driver Mitch likes that I’ve had sitting on the bench. Just wanted to rule out hardware or mesh issues.

I’m about to beef up the mesh with switches and local controllers over the next two weeks. I’m really excited to enhance my mesh finally.


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[dcovach]

4 hours ago, time2jet said:

Dan - that particular timer is 10mins.

Stops on motion, starts on no motion

No timer set on the driver. Both set to highest sensitivity.

I’ve added the variables and set up push notifications for sensing motion for the two in the kitchen. They’re definitely sensing motion. Pushes have been like popcorn.

What was happening is that if one of us were washing dishes per se, the lights would turn off, but no amount of additional motion works turn them back on for a period (not sure how long, but has to leave the room and re-enter).

I think I’ll set the variable for when they stop sensing motion and see how that works. Might tell a better tale. If I’m working in the kitchen and I’m alerted the motion has stopped and I can’t get it to also alert me it saw motion again, that’d explain things. Won’t necessarily tell me why, but at least what is happening.

I’ll let this play out today, and report back.

If I’m not happy with the results, I’ll add the 3rd party driver Mitch likes that I’ve had sitting on the bench. Just wanted to rule out hardware or mesh issues.

I’m about to beef up the mesh with switches and local controllers over the next two weeks. I’m really excited to enhance my mesh finally.


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My opinion is that you need to confirm that you've isolated all the issues.  Eg.  Healthy zigbee mesh confirmed, programming implemented properly, agents / variables set up properly.  Until then, you'll be chasing your tail.

Programming can take a while to understand AND implement properly simultaneously.  Same with agents and understanding how they work and react to programming.  I had a look at what you did. 

Try this.

1.  The kitchen occupancy timer should not be repeating. 

Maybe rename it to 'no occupancy in kitchen' timer to reflect what it's keeping track of.

2.  When the timer expires, don't activate the toggle scene of the kitchen lights.  Instead, de-activate the kitchen lights scene.  Don't use or reference the (toggle) scene in programming.

Here's why.  You created a Kitchen Lights (toggle) scene and selected it to be the toggle for the Kitchen Lights scene.  With this setup, activating and deactivating the kitchen lights scene in programming toggles between both. 

3.  Since programming can take time to get right, the recommended driver by @msgreenf will at least implement the right programming logic for motion sensors.  

[Time2Jet]

I understand perfectly what you’re saying Dan, but as for the ALS (toggle, etc) the idea behind my programming was:

At motion from one of 3 sensors (only 2 linked right now) turn on 3 particular lights.
I also have this conditional upon the state of these three (don’t fire if all 3 are on). But now that I think about it, why does that matter? Because I want to invoke the occupancy timer even if those lights were manually turned on. No one in my home cares to turn off lights when they leave a room! So, I think I’ll remove the conditions.

Then, once motion is no longer sensed, wait 10 minutes and turn off “ALL” lights in that area (5-6?). (I’m not even sure why I have 10 mins. Should almost be immediate). That’s why I have two different ALS for motion/ocuipancy.

Right now, the variable programming is sensing motion and then not sensing motion in a manner I feel is correct. I had a minor hiccup in the timer programming I fixed. I do know (hope) this will only get better once I get a bunch of new Zigbee devices over on that quadrant of the house.

But your idea to do the variable programming test was very helpful in eliminating hardware or Zigbee concerns.

I hope that explains the lighting aspect. I’ll reread your post. I tend to create ALS’s with the default toggle and don’t rename them.

Thanks always. I’ll eventually install the driver, but I wanted to try to make this work without it. Stubborn.



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[dcovach]

So... like I was saying (paraphrasing), programming takes a while to get right.  You're programming with events and agents.  Figuring out how agents work is one beast.  Using them in programming and expecting desired results is another beast.

You can shorten the occupancy timer.  It's waiting to turn off the lights when there's no more motion in the pre-set time.  It stops if something moved.  The motion sensor itself has it's own timer but you can't really use it because it's too short.  If you set the occupancy timer agent too low, the lights will turn off if you stand still for too long while eating a sandwich.

To stop the occupancy timer on manual light button presses, add another line of programming.  When ALS Kitchen Lights is invoked, stop kitchen occupancy timer.  Make sure tracking for that scene includes any load and 'Is On" for all lights.   

Most of us struggle with the "tracking" in the Advanced Lighting scene agent.  It takes a bit of practice to get this right.   In order for the desired Active or Inactive event to occur, the tracking conditions need to be adjusted accordingly.  A lighting scene is Active when all the tracking conditions are met.  It gets confusing when you're expecting Active to mean Lights are ON, and Inactive to mean Off.  Active/Inactive just means the tracking conditions are either met or not.  Lights can be at all sorts of levels in a scene.  The tracking conditions you set in the scene dictate whether it's Active or Not.  

When you understand that then you can use it predictably in programming.

Or... just use the driver that was mentioned.

[ILoveC4]

Remember with timers, you want to RESET the timer, not start the timer. That resets it to the default and starts it. If you just start it, it will start with whatever random time is remaining on the timer. 

[dcovach]

1 hour ago, ILoveC4 said:

Remember with timers, you want to RESET the timer, not start the timer. That resets it to the default and starts it. If you just start it, it will start with whatever random time is remaining on the timer. 

You're confusing the logic with this.  Reset is beneficial for lots of reasons but not in this case. 

[Time2Jet]

Here's where I landed on this... (also adapted for 4 baths)

Agents

Timer - (Kitchen Occupancy - 5 mins)

Programming

-When Senses Motion>

Activate ALS1 (Turns 3 Lights On)

Stop Kitchen Occupancy Timer

-When Stops Sensing Motion>

Start Kitchen Occupancy Timer

-When Kitchen Occupancy Timer Expires>

Activate ALS2 (Turns ALL Kitchen Lights Off)

Initially, I was reversing the timer (Start & Stop), then using Reset... but this way it seems to work very well ...finally.

I would have never thought to do it this way, but after Dan explained the logic, I finally caved in and listened and it works.  The lights aren't turning off while I'm pouring coffee at 5am (5:05am).

I'm going to live with this for awhile and then heed Mitch's advice and use the driver... Just really wanted this to work

Thanks @dcovach

Is anyone else accomplishing the same goal using the timer agent and sensors programmed differently?  I get there's a great paid driver, and I own it, I just really feel like this should natively "work" and maybe the driver just simplify.

Now to figure out why my HS110 Washer Outlet stopped working after the hardware died and was replaced and ID'd.  Fun stuff.

 

Thanks guys!

[msgreenf]

Enter the new Mac address

[Time2Jet]

1 hour ago, msgreenf said:

Enter the new Mac address

Thanks Mitch.  I added it an ID'd it fine a few months ago.  It doesn't fire the programming and send the push, but I can execute the programming and it does send a push.  I think you checked it a month ago and said the programming was all there, so not sure why unless we need to adjust the draw for the new outlet?

 

[msgreenf]

1 hour ago, time2jet said:

Thanks Mitch.  I added it an ID'd it fine a few months ago.  It doesn't fire the programming and send the push, but I can execute the programming and it does send a push.  I think you checked it a month ago and said the programming was all there, so not sure why unless we need to adjust the draw for the new outlet?

 

that could be it - the low could be too low - may have to change it from 1 to 2

[Time2Jet]

that could be it - the low could be too low - may have to change it from 1 to 2

I’ll try that and let you know. I bet you’re right. Thanks!


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[Time2Jet]

Mitch - It was already set to 2 in the driver. (33 high/2 low). The driver shows it idle at 3. The app is showing it’s idle draw at 2.2. I bumped it to 3 and will test.


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[msgreenf]

So you probably want it 4

[Time2Jet]

That was it Mitch. It’s working. Beautiful. Thanks.


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[Time2Jet]

Regarding the kitchen motion scene, I’m going to have to add conditionals. What’s happening is that if the any of the three light levels are adjusted manually, upon motion they dim to the ALS level (more accent level versus task levels). Is there a more efficient way to do this? Any additional thoughts on my logic? Seems like the timer situation is working. Albeit, if my wife sits at the kitchen bar (furthest point from a sensor) and has a cup of coffee, motion isn’t sensed. But that’s to be expected. That’s why I had the longer timer before. Hoping there’s be motion over a longer period so that the timer would stop.

The whole idea of this sensor programming is to provide accent lighting (or pathway type lighting) in a very large walkthrough kitchen. The second purpose of the motion programming is to assure that lighting doesn’t remain lit if no one is in the area.




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[dcovach]

When there's motion, if the scene is active already, don't invoke or activate it again.  Make sure tracking includes any lights, and all lights set to "is on" instead of "scene final" .

 

[msgreenf]

stop - use the driver you bought - it does all this for you.  You are just wasting time

[Daniel-J]

You can try other ways to turn it on. I have an old system too, but it's activated by cotton. I think it's more convenient