System Design - Question for you experts - network, centralization of rack, and C4

[Charlie Mackenzie]

Hi there, we currently have a house with a C4 system (EA5, Traid amps, etc) that we are taking to a new house we purchased in New York. The house is fully finished so it is a retrofit. Dealer wants to outfit the home in all Araknis equipment including access points and replacing some of the in ceiling speakers.

Question 1 - I am questioning using a integrated type solution like Araknis or pakedge when we could use dell or cisco. Why are the integrated solutions always preferred? my concern is   maybe i don't want C4 or something like that in the future and now i have only "dealer" equipment. Why would one not use more open source type stuff for at least the network. I cant imagine dell switches for commercial purposes are lesser quality then Araknis as an example. 

Question 2 - How to handle the video. I am a huge proponent of having everything in one rack. This may not seem logical, but that is the way we like it. To that end, I am trying to decide how to get video to the TV in the room (and the associated audio to the speakers in the ceiling in that room). We could put the cable boxes in the rack and run something (what is that something? HDMI to cat 6 converters?) or video distribution. I don't want to go video distribution as it is expensive and gets out dated fast. I think I would rather put the apple TV behind the tv mount and have sources at the TVs. But then that gets to how to you get the sound back to the rack? Can a Ca1 help with this? does it just take it back via CAT 6? Not sure how best to use a CA1 I guess. We will have a bunch of control 4 light switches (just replacing normal light switches with C4 which will expand Zigbe). 

Question 3 - Anyone have experience with battery life in Lutron shades? I am debating wiring them in, but if the battery life is sufficiently strong, maybe no need. Also, I am not clear on how they connect to Control 4. If blinds are going across multiple levels of the house, how do they connect to control them? do I need multiple wireless hubs or whatever they are?

Question 4 - Subwoofers - How do they integrate with zones? if we have a living room that has a sound zone and we want a powered sub there as well, what are the wiring mechanics for this? what if the room is two separate zones as it is really a dining room and living room (with 2 zones) but we want the sub on with either zone. just curious on the connections/mechanics with this.

Question 5 - any views on wiring suggestions. I realize without plans this is hard - but consider a perfect AV closet in the basement and only a few speakers have been run. I now need to get access points to all floors, more speaker wires to all floors, and whatever the video solution is in question 2. Welcome any feedback anyone has who has contemplated a retrofit like this. I am comfortable putting holes in drywall. Just would like to minimize to the extent possible. We have drywallers and painters coming afterwards.

 

I realize I can ask the dealer some of these things, but I like to be a very informed consumer so i am not just taking one dealer's opinion here. Thus I welcome all your expertise. 

[msgreenf]

Question 1- dell and Cisco aren't open source...they make good network gear. But Cisco is far from open source

 

Question 2 - ca1 does nothing with video. You can use audio return baluns from the tv 

 

 

[ejn1]

1 hour ago, Charlie Mackenzie said:

Hi there, we currently have a house with a C4 system (EA5, Traid amps, etc) that we are taking to a new house we purchased in New York. The house is fully finished so it is a retrofit. Dealer wants to outfit the home in all Araknis equipment including access points and replacing some of the in ceiling speakers.

Question 1 - I am questioning using a integrated type solution like Araknis or pakedge when we could use dell or cisco. Why are the integrated solutions always preferred? my concern is   maybe i don't want C4 or something like that in the future and now i have only "dealer" equipment. Why would one not use more open source type stuff for at least the network. I cant imagine dell switches for commercial purposes are lesser quality then Araknis as an example. 

Question 2 - How to handle the video. I am a huge proponent of having everything in one rack. This may not seem logical, but that is the way we like it. To that end, I am trying to decide how to get video to the TV in the room (and the associated audio to the speakers in the ceiling in that room). We could put the cable boxes in the rack and run something (what is that something? HDMI to cat 6 converters?) or video distribution. I don't want to go video distribution as it is expensive and gets out dated fast. I think I would rather put the apple TV behind the tv mount and have sources at the TVs. But then that gets to how to you get the sound back to the rack? Can a Ca1 help with this? does it just take it back via CAT 6? Not sure how best to use a CA1 I guess. We will have a bunch of control 4 light switches (just replacing normal light switches with C4 which will expand Zigbe). 

Question 3 - Anyone have experience with battery life in Lutron shades? I am debating wiring them in, but if the battery life is sufficiently strong, maybe no need. Also, I am not clear on how they connect to Control 4. If blinds are going across multiple levels of the house, how do they connect to control them? do I need multiple wireless hubs or whatever they are?

Question 4 - Subwoofers - How do they integrate with zones? if we have a living room that has a sound zone and we want a powered sub there as well, what are the wiring mechanics for this? what if the room is two separate zones as it is really a dining room and living room (with 2 zones) but we want the sub on with either zone. just curious on the connections/mechanics with this.

Question 5 - any views on wiring suggestions. I realize without plans this is hard - but consider a perfect AV closet in the basement and only a few speakers have been run. I now need to get access points to all floors, more speaker wires to all floors, and whatever the video solution is in question 2. Welcome any feedback anyone has who has contemplated a retrofit like this. I am comfortable putting holes in drywall. Just would like to minimize to the extent possible. We have drywallers and painters coming afterwards.

 

I realize I can ask the dealer some of these things, but I like to be a very informed consumer so i am not just taking one dealer's opinion here. Thus I welcome all your expertise. 

Battery life on the Lutrons have been over a year in a second home for me but it all depends on use.   I'm guessing with daily use you are looking at 9 months or so...   Very easy to change also on the Lutrons (I have the Serenas).

On networking,  I think it all depends on how comfortable you are with it and your needs.   If you are a networking capable person and want a step up and dont require cloud access or nice gui's (that can be more than just gimmicks), then Mikrotik / Ruckus are great options.   If you want a prosumer option with a lot of user features,  Unifi is great.   I would not be investing in either of the brands you mentioned but dont have direct experience with them so leave for others and forum readings on those

 

[LollerAgent]

#1 - Your dealer most likely wants to sell you Araknis, because that is where the best margin for him is (he makes the most money).  It's also what he's likely the most familiar with, and the most comfortable supporting. 

#4 - Your subwoofer's amp would be connected to a dedicated output on your audio matrix.  You can then "'pair" the subwoofer zone with an actual room's zone in the Triad matrix programming.

[Cyknight]

13 hours ago, Charlie Mackenzie said:

 

Question 1 - I am questioning using a integrated type solution like Araknis or pakedge when we could use dell or cisco. Why are the integrated solutions always preferred? my concern is   maybe i don't want C4 or something like that in the future and now i have only "dealer" equipment. Why would one not use more open source type stuff for at least the network. I cant imagine dell switches for commercial purposes are lesser quality then Araknis as an example. 

Question 2 - How to handle the video. I am a huge proponent of having everything in one rack. This may not seem logical, but that is the way we like it. To that end, I am trying to decide how to get video to the TV in the room (and the associated audio to the speakers in the ceiling in that room). We could put the cable boxes in the rack and run something (what is that something? HDMI to cat 6 converters?) or video distribution. I don't want to go video distribution as it is expensive and gets out dated fast. I think I would rather put the apple TV behind the tv mount and have sources at the TVs. But then that gets to how to you get the sound back to the rack? Can a Ca1 help with this? does it just take it back via CAT 6? Not sure how best to use a CA1 I guess. We will have a bunch of control 4 light switches (just replacing normal light switches with C4 which will expand Zigbe). 

Question 3 - Anyone have experience with battery life in Lutron shades? I am debating wiring them in, but if the battery life is sufficiently strong, maybe no need. Also, I am not clear on how they connect to Control 4. If blinds are going across multiple levels of the house, how do they connect to control them? do I need multiple wireless hubs or whatever they are?

Question 4 - Subwoofers - How do they integrate with zones? if we have a living room that has a sound zone and we want a powered sub there as well, what are the wiring mechanics for this? what if the room is two separate zones as it is really a dining room and living room (with 2 zones) but we want the sub on with either zone. just curious on the connections/mechanics with this.

Question 5 - any views on wiring suggestions. I realize without plans this is hard - but consider a perfect AV closet in the basement and only a few speakers have been run. I now need to get access points to all floors, more speaker wires to all floors, and whatever the video solution is in question 2. Welcome any feedback anyone has who has contemplated a retrofit like this. I am comfortable putting holes in drywall. Just would like to minimize to the extent possible. We have drywallers and painters coming afterwards.

 

 

#1 Nothing stops you from using Cisco or other 3rd party gear. Note that Araknis and Pakedge aren't locked to C4 dealers either.

Araknis/Pakedge DOES get full support through the Control4/SnapOne channels, and that, more than any 'margin' is one of the main reasons many C4 dealers like selling them. If nothing else C4 dealer support is one of the best ones around for RMA, turnover time etc etc.

#2 Uhm. Well you want to have everything in the racck, but you don't want to pay for distribution. That sort of contradicts itself really. Sure you can do single sources to the TV with HDMIs or baluns, but at that point, assunming you have a good number of TVs, you're better off getting an HDMI switch. There's nothing AGAINST local sources and an audio balun back to the amplifiers either though. But you can't have both - everything central, and not have a cost associated with it.

As mentioned, the CA1 (or ANY controller) aren't going to help you here, that's just got nothing to do with it.

#3 Battery life isn't bad, but consider height (how easy to replace). As for best method, with any blind, is hard to judge without knowing the house. Numerous options though.

#4 Would influence the choice of amps. There's several option available with a subwoofer out. Sharing it across two rooms is posible with some extra gear without too much trouble, but I'd jsut plan for a nice in-celing or in-wall sub in both rooms vs using a powered sub....

 

#5 Like you say, all but impossible to judge without knowing the plans, both fot he house and the intended setup.

Genreal terms, one AP per floor is usally enough, you'll want at least two CAT6 at each TV location - maybe still coax depending on plan. General I'd advise two CAT6, 2 CAT5 or just 4 CAT6. Around here coax really is at the point of redundant, but I'm old fashioned an like having one in the wall personally. 4CAT plus a coax, and you can go eny way you want. Lcal source, distributed or hybrid.

[Topspin14m]

What audio baluns do people like best, if you go with that method?

[msgreenf]

13 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

What audio baluns do people like best, if you go with that method?

https://www.blackwiredesigns.com/store/digital-analog-audio-extender-over-cat/

[LollerAgent]

21 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

What audio baluns do people like best, if you go with that method?

These are great, especially if you also need a DAC:

https://www.xantech.com/product/audio-over-cat-cable-built-dac-XT-CAT-ARC-KIT

[RAV]

Network - not who's going to support it.? They should use the equipment they know. Networks need occasional attention. As stated, those brands are easier to support since the vendor knows both systems and requirements and focused on the AV industry. Call Cisco or Dell or Uni how to setup a managed switch for Sonos, or for an advanced replacement. Not that they can't be, but there's no phone for help.

Video Distribution - my opinion, luxury item. If you are doing high end like Kaleidescape, want a single source in a bunch of places in synch, or willing to spend money to consolidate for cleanliness and service. This is a category that costs extra, always. In a couple years when cables boxes are all gone, what will you be left with through distribution? Video over IP most practical.