weepee Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I would like to know what everybody thinks about control4 charging for an upgrade to 2.0. We don’t yet know how much it will cost.I thought it was there business model to get their money from the sale of hardware and accessories and leave the dealers to get money from the end-users (Me). I do understand that there will be a significant change to the look and feel with this upgrade, and I can appreciate that they have development costs associated with that. But when my dealer comes out to do the upgrade, there will be a charge from him and from control4. It seems from the rumors that it will be an on site upgrade and that will involve rolling a truck.I’m not saying that I won’t upgrade, because I will. I’m just saying that I was surprised by charging for it. What does the forum community think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derickson1472 Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Im cool with them charging as long as they deliver on the hype. Im ready to pay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Control4's model, IMO from what I've seen at CES and CEDIA this year, is to move away from the hardware manufacturing and focus on being the "home operating system". They've taken important steps in that direction - by adopting the Zigbee Pro standard, and moving to Flash gui that can be used on a greater number of hardware platforms. As a result of that, I would expect to see other third party equipment being introduced, while the overhead for keeping the software running increases without a piece of that hardware profit. This one-time fee for 2.0, per project, is a way for them to recoup some of the R&D effors in making these changes, as well as bug fixes moving forward. I would not expect at this time that the maintenance releases are something that they would charge for.If you don't already have zigbee pro from 1.8, you will need a truck roll for 2.0 which includes zigbee pro as well. If you have 1.8 and zigbee pro, 2.0 may be able to be done remotely but we don't know at this time.Just my opinion and not those of Control4 or The SOHO Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 If it delivers on everything it's been hyped up yo be I'll write the check in a heartbeat. They need to get paid for all the time and effort they're putting into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeNYC Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Thecodeman, are we going to see a per-controller fee, or a flat licensing fee (in addition to the labor/truck roll that a dealer will charge)? Do people with smaller or larger systems pay the same amount for 2.0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Thecodeman, are we going to see a per-controller fee, or a flat licensing fee (in addition to the labor/truck roll that a dealer will charge)? Do people with smaller or larger systems pay the same amount for 2.0?The cost for the OS 2.0 software from C4 is a set price per project. If you have one controller or 10 controllers in you house the price will be the same for the OS 2.0 software.The cost of labor from your dealer for updating a particular system will be variable due to the fact that each system is different and it will take a different amount of time to upgrade a complex system as compared to a simpler system.You also have to factor in the cost of any additional hardware that will need to be upgraded if hardware needs to be upgraded. Example, you are on a 1.3 system with V1 or V2 remotes and you want to got to OS 2.0. In this case you will also have to replace your V1 or V2 remotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercedes Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Upgrading is part of any technology these days. While Control4 sells hardware and provides software, it does not exempt them from charging an upgrade fee. If that was the case we would see new versions of the software not support any old hardware platform. There is a considerable cost in software development for backwards compatibility. We see Control4 drop some older equipment with 2.0 but from what I can tell it is because of limitations with those devices, not a desire to sell replacement products. We see them drop the price of the HC1000 because many existing systems might need the additional horsepower to run 2.0 effectively. I have never seen Microsoft negotiate a better deal with Intel on processor upgrades because a new release of Windows is coming out and most people won’t be able to run it. When I bought my system, I did not do so because the 2.0 interface was coming. I liked what I saw and I bought it. It has delivered what I expected it to delivery. If I have to pay a software upgrade fee to get even better functionality and flexibility, I will do it if I feel it is worth it. At least Control4 did not end of live the 1.X product and force us to go to 2.0. Also the approach of a “project level” upgrade is a pretty sweet thing. When was the last time you upgraded all of the PCs in your home to the new release of Windows for a single “entire home” fee? Control4 could have charged per controller, touch screen, and even remotes if they wanted. This might upset small system users and will bring great joy to large system users, but it seems very fair across the board.One other point, without the software and user interface, we would have a bunch of nice looking paperweights in our racks and next to our flat screens. Software is what it is all about in the end. I bought Control4 because of the user interface and the simplicity. I don’t mind paying for continued intellectual investment by Control4 as long as it is reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takitezsdc Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 GIVE ME 2.0!!!1 GIVE IT TO ME!!! /opens check book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin L Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 the biggest thing not mentioned as well is flash licensing for each house to adobe.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingerbrown Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 What if you aren't a control4 user yet? Will 2.0 cost more for a new project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 What if you aren't a control4 user yet? Will 2.0 cost more for a new project?There have been no announcements yet regarding OS 2.0 costs on new systems after OS 2.0 is released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin L Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 there wont be a 2.0 charge when the controller actually comes with 2.0 preloaded.. the license will be included in the price of the controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 $50 would be a fair site license for 2.0. This is already 2x what I paid to upgrade my from Mac OS X 10.5 to 10.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I heard more than $100 but less than $1,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOracle Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 What I would like to see Control4 do is develop an upgrade path similar to what real software companies do. While it wouldn't be a model everyone would want to or would adopt, I think there are many of us who would. All the software I've ever sold (IBM and Oracle) sell a software license with an annual support and maintenance fee of anywhere from 10-20% of the original fees. This could be done to support hardware upgrades as well as software.As it stands, the only way I can upgrade my system to 2.0 is to buy more hardware. I cannot get a straight answer on how much upgrading the hardware and software would be. I've seen things like trade in programs, etc but never any details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 The trade-in promotion ended last month. It went for several weeks - we sent out an email blast to all of our customers when we first heard about it (before the blog was around) and even re-posted on the blog 8 days before the promo ended:http://c4central.com/2009/12/23/buy-a-new-control4-controller-get-a-free-upgrade-license-to-2-0/You're not going to get a "straight answer" from anyone but your dealer. If you have old hardware you need to upgrade, if you're on 1.7 and need to be upgraded to zigbee pro at the time of your upgrade to 2.0, if you didn't buy any hardware to qualify for the free site license, the truck roll to your house, how big your project is, etc etc. are all variables to what ultimately the cost of the upgrade to 2.0 will be for everyone.I'd peg the MSRP of the *only* the license itself to be $400, not including any of the other costs you may incur as detailed above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigrzeye Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Oh is that all ... only $400.00 ?? Serious question though, if you are happy with and don't want 2.0, or the associated extra costs, can you stay at 1.7 or to take advantage of newer zigbee pro equipment upgrade to just 1.8 ?? And will there continue to be updates to 1.7 and 1.8 in the future to improve functionality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Oh is that all ... only $400.00 ?? Serious question though, if you are happy with and don't want 2.0, or the associated extra costs, can you stay at 1.7 or to take advantage of newer zigbee pro equipment upgrade to just 1.8 ?? And will there continue to be updates to 1.7 and 1.8 in the future to improve functionality?No one is being forced to upgrade to 2.0. You're more than welcome to stay at 1.7.x and 1.8x for zigbee pro. I can't say if there will be any more maintenance releases for those versions though, because at this time that's undetermined. I don't speak for Control4, this is just an observation of what I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrader Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Oh is that all ... only $400.00 ?? Serious question though' date=' if you are happy with and don't want 2.0, or the associated extra costs, can you stay at 1.7 or to take advantage of newer zigbee pro equipment upgrade to just 1.8 ?? And will there continue to be updates to 1.7 and 1.8 in the future to improve functionality?[/quote']No one is being forced to upgrade to 2.0. You're more than welcome to stay at 1.7.x and 1.8x for zigbee pro. I can't say if there will be any more maintenance releases for those versions though, because at this time that's undetermined. I don't speak for Control4, this is just an observation of what I've seen.Well, while true, you can only stay at 1.7 if you don't plan to add any more dimmers or keypads to your project, as the EmberNet devices are end of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I disagree that C4 should use 10-20% support and maintenance model used by software vendors. Is C4 planning to support me directly? No, I'm already paying my dealer for support every time I need it.$400 upgrade license is totally gouging existing customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jberger Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 You are paying for a new software version with additional functionality, so there should be a cost associated with the development and support of a new line. There are support costs for software regardless of who your front line support provider is, as someone has to debug, maintain and enhance the software package. $400 per house is pretty damn cheap. They could have charged by device (lifeware), by controller, etc. But they set a fixed fee per project which makes it easy to budget and understand. I have no idea where the reference of 10-20% support and maint model quote comes from. Most major software upgrades are far more than 10-20% of new license pricing. I assure you the Microsoft, Novell, Oracle, etc charge more than 10-20% for an upgrade license on a standard basis. It's the first time they've EVER charged for a software upgrade, it's a major level revision 1x to 2x AND it includes a number of outside license fees for the use of Flash, additional codecs, etc. You don't have to upgrade, you can keep your existing gear as long as you like. You only need to upgrade for new features or hardware that requires a newer version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgbrown Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 You are paying for a new software version with additional functionality, so there should be a cost associated with the development and support of a new line. There are support costs for software regardless of who your front line support provider is, as someone has to debug, maintain and enhance the software package. $400 per house is pretty damn cheap. They could have charged by device (lifeware), by controller, etc. But they set a fixed fee per project which makes it easy to budget and understand. I have no idea where the reference of 10-20% support and maint model quote comes from. Most major software upgrades are far more than 10-20% of new license pricing. I assure you the Microsoft, Novell, Oracle, etc charge more than 10-20% for an upgrade license on a standard basis. It's the first time they've EVER charged for a software upgrade, it's a major level revision 1x to 2x AND it includes a number of outside license fees for the use of Flash, additional codecs, etc. You don't have to upgrade, you can keep your existing gear as long as you like. You only need to upgrade for new features or hardware that requires a newer version." I assure you the Microsoft, Novell, Oracle, etc charge more than 10-20% for an upgrade license on a standard basis."Used to be 15%-18%. That has inched up to 20%-22% in recent years. However this is the "annual" maintenance fee. So if you don't pony up the annual fee, you receive no support and no upgrades/patches. When a new major release comes out you pay full boat, or you have the option (in some liberal cases ....) to retroactively true up your missed maintenance cycle. No body asked me but I don't like this model for residential.People ... a few other points to note here, that $400 includes dealer margin, any tech/patent royalties that may be due, etc. IMHO, that brings the net to C4 down considerably .... doesn't feel so bad to me when I look at it that way. Besides, if you want something more material to justify your investment, pick up a new controller under the promo program. Or ask you're dealer, who you're paying per incident for support, to cut his margin on the release - he's going to charge you for the manhours for the upgrade anyway (the upgrade path will at least be as difficult and time consuming as 1.8 so there's likely good dealer $'s on the table for this one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOracle Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I can't speak for Microsoft or Novell but I can for Oracle as I have worked for them up until recently for 15 years. The list price for support is 22% and is discounted by the full amount of the deal. In many cases, we sold support and maintenance for as low as 12% after discount. Up until the past few years, there was an actual breakdown in the percentage of support and the maintenance. We never actually sold one without the other so I don't remember that breakdown.The maintenance fees allowed you to upgrade to the new software as it came out. So, if you originally bought Oracle 8 and continued to pay the maintenance fees, you could upgrade to version 11. In the model employed by Control4, I think there would be some commonality in this. If they could come up with something similar that would allow upgrades without this type of discussion. They could also do the same thing with hardware for a higher fee. I don't think Control4 would go for the end user support model used by major software companies but if they did the hardware/software upgrade model, I could get behind that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jberger Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 There is a difference between Upgrade and Maintenance Fees. You pay Maint every year regardless of upgrades. Upgrade fees are paid only when you move from version to version. If you guys really rather pay 20% fee on all of your equipment every year, or $400 per home every time there was a significant software upgrade?Hell, i'll start a subscription model if you want to pay me 10-22% of your Control4 hardware total a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgbrown Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 I'm with jberger on this as previously stated. You're already paying maintenance al la carte. Why not just pay for the upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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