Music Playlist Options

[BY96]

5 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

Not doubting your knowledge, but the spec sheets don't list MQA.

I noticed the same thing. However, the specs sheet for the EA-5 also don't mention MQA and yet, it is used in all the examples for MQA in the C4 literature. And I cannot believe they would take it away when the Cores are supposed to have better audio. 

 

https://www.control4.com/docs/product/ea-5/data-sheet/english/revision/B//ea-5-data-sheet-rev-b.pdf

[SpencerT]

1 hour ago, ekohn00 said:

Personally think the limiting factor is the DAC in the core or EA. Having high-resolution audio going through a cheaper DAC degrades the sound. I personally added bluesound for most of the streaming music as well as the whole home audio, there's a significant difference.

 

I also use bluesound through a nad ci580 and agree. We do very little native streaming from the controller (mostly Pandora stations which are low quality anyway).

I have a handful of dacs (including the 580) that support mqa between my control4 setup and dedicated listening space (which is not setup in control4).

99% of the time, MQA just isn't my cup of tea. 

[Cyknight]

? OK let's clear something up.

MQA isn't hi rez audio (in and of itself)

MQA is nothing but an encoding (compression) and decoding method for audio. It's just one of several options. It's still a lossy format - don't care what they claim. Good or not, that's subjective, but it's essentially a way to TAKE hi-rez audio and force it to work at less bandwidth use (ie make it easier to stream) with a nice little licensing fee to be able to encode and decode it. No more, no less. Oh sure MQA goes on and on about 'it being incorporated right at studio level' - but blah blah blah. Just because you encode and compress at studio level doesn't mean it's not still just en encoding and compression method. Not to mention that there's been plenty of MQA re-encodings done, so really it's non-sense anyway.

There whole spiel about it being 'done with the artist together' is far from accurate as well. Go ask Neil Young about that one.

 

Control4 doesn't do decoding of MQA AFAIK. It doesn't have to because MQA is basically on Tidal - and Tidal handles the decoding via a software decoder (which isn't nearly as good as the further unpack a true MQA decoder can do mind you)

 

MQA Ltd is currently in administration so who knows if it'll even survive - as a company or even a format. Even Tidal -the first (and really only fully) steaming service to jump on board with MQA- has started offering other option for MQA, since it's basically frozen if not dead.

 

 

[Cyknight]

PS I will add that Control4 has made leaps and bounds between HC800 to EA to Core on audio quality. HC800 was good for distributed audio, EA was better, Core is great. But note the distributed audio - a true dedicated listening room is a whole other ball game. 'Course one can argue that such a room shouldn't be listening to streaming services in the first place.

[LollerAgent]

18 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

Personally think the limiting factor is the DAC in the core or EA. Having high-resolution audio going through a cheaper DAC degrades the sound. I personally added bluesound for most of the streaming music as well as the whole home audio, there's a significant difference.

PS....even Sirius and Pandora are better sounding, and they are far from high-res

I really want to pick up a Bluesound to check the sound quality difference for myself.  But, I also don't want to lose the ease of use that using built-in streaming services on C4 has.  Can you have a similar experience with Bluesound?

[BY96]

16 hours ago, Cyknight said:

PS I will add that Control4 has made leaps and bounds between HC800 to EA to Core on audio quality. HC800 was good for distributed audio, EA was better, Core is great. But note the distributed audio - a true dedicated listening room is a whole other ball game. 'Course one can argue that such a room shouldn't be listening to streaming services in the first place.

I completely agree that a dedicate listing room and whole house audio are not in the same game. I do use my home theater set up for more critical music listening, but ultimately, I am not a music guy and don't invest a ton in two-channel listening. We (primarily my wife) mostly uses the whole house audio system for music listening and having moved from ABUS, my new setup with the Core3 and Episode Response are stellar. 

My dealer told me that the C4 controllers always use the digital output first. Right now, I am using a cheaper ($10 from Amazon) external DAC between the Core 3 digital output and the Episode Response. If I were to invest in a higher-quality (say $200ish) DAC, would there by a noticeable improvement for the whole house audio? If so, does anyone have any suggestions for a DAC? 

Maybe something like this?

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_779DAC100B/Cambridge-Audio-DacMagic-100-Black.html?tp=59309

[Cyknight]

On 7/8/2023 at 9:55 AM, BY96 said:

My dealer told me that the C4 controllers always use the digital output first

C4 by default uses a normally best to less audio option (HDMI to digital to stereo) - but I should not that the sound out of digital ports and analogue ports (and HDMI) on a controller are identical as such, it's 2 channel PCM. There really is no advantage (quality wise) using one over the other as such.

 

While a truly CHEAP basic DAC can cause degradation, there's no need for a high-end DAC either.

[BY96]

39 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

C4 by default uses a normally best to less audio option (HDMI to digital to stereo) - but I should not that the sound out of digital ports and analogue ports (and HDMI) on a controller are identical as such, it's 2 channel PCM. There really is no advantage (quality wise) using one over the other as such.

 

While a truly CHEAP basic DAC can cause degradation, there's no need for a high-end DAC either.

I know you aren't a fan of MQA, and MQA's lifespan is in question, but I did find that the C4 controllers can decode MQA themselves or send the signal, over digital, to an external decoder.  (I attached the document from C4.) My research also found that external MQA recorder offer benefits over software decoders (which I presume is the method of C4 controllers). 

After looking at all my options, I purchased this relatively cheap DAC, which decodes (not just renders) MQA over digital coax (not just USB like most DACs I found). It got stellar reviews, and for $80, I figured it was worth a try, even if it only serves as a placebo. 

https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/smsl-su-1-akm-ak4493s-chip-xu316-dsd512-pcm768khz-32bit-usb-mqa-audio-decoder

 

mqa-audio-setup-guide-rev-a.pdf

[ekohn00]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:41 AM, LollerAgent said:

I really want to pick up a Bluesound to check the sound quality difference for myself.  But, I also don't want to lose the ease of use that using built-in streaming services on C4 has.  Can you have a similar experience with Bluesound?

Yes, I think it’s a better experience. bluesound has c4 mini drivers to control the streaming services. 
I got the Bluesound originally for roon integration, but became pleasantly surprised overall.  

[Cyknight]

I don' think music service integration is better than using C4 native. I'd say the service integration (within a c4 interface) is a bit better using native services (feels smoother) - but it's splitting hairs. Overall I'd say they're basically the same (again, talking about function or the interface here, not sound quality)

[LollerAgent]

12 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

Yes, I think it’s a better experience. bluesound has c4 mini drivers to control the streaming services. 
I got the Bluesound originally for roon integration, but became pleasantly surprised overall.  

I ended up ordering the new Node to play with.  It's not in yet.. but, I would like to retain functionality that allows me to easily target any room for Spotify via the Node.

I currently have a Spotify driver/endpoint defined for each room, and I can quickly just use the Spotify app to start a session in any room in my home.  To add additional rooms, I can just use the C4 app.  Is something like this possible?

[Cyknight]

On 7/9/2023 at 11:15 AM, BY96 said:

I know you aren't a fan of MQA

Not a fan, but nothing against it either to be honest.

And if the info you have is correct, then I guess C4 does do MQA .

[ekohn00]

23 hours ago, LollerAgent said:

I ended up ordering the new Node to play with.  It's not in yet.. but, I would like to retain functionality that allows me to easily target any room for Spotify via the Node.

I currently have a Spotify driver/endpoint defined for each room, and I can quickly just use the Spotify app to start a session in any room in my home.  To add additional rooms, I can just use the C4 app.  Is something like this possible?

Here's a list of all the minidrivers, so yes on spotify.

 

[BY96]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:58 AM, Cyknight said:

C4 by default uses a normally best to less audio option (HDMI to digital to stereo) 

Deleted. Problem fixed. 

[nxr]

Curious if you have made a decision. 
 

I currently have Apple Music and SXM through Sonos with C4 and, although it works reliably, I hate the jumping around between apps. I am moving and debating dumping Apple Music and going with Amazon Music (I can transfer playlists with Soundiz) and SXM directly through C4. This is just for whole house music as have sep listening room so less focused on absolute best quality. 
 

would love any input on this 

[BY96]

24 minutes ago, nxr said:

Curious if you have made a decision. 
 

I currently have Apple Music and SXM through Sonos with C4 and, although it works reliably, I hate the jumping around between apps. I am moving and debating dumping Apple Music and going with Amazon Music (I can transfer playlists with Soundiz) and SXM directly through C4. This is just for whole house music as have sep listening room so less focused on absolute best quality. 
 

would love any input on this 

I have settled on Tidal. It is pricey, but I really like the user interface and find the algorithms for recommending music to be excellent. The sound quality is great even though I am not sure it is measurably better than some of the other services. I love the integration with C4, but again, that is probably common to other services too, including Amazon Music. 

[BY96]

Earlier in the thread, it was mentioned that C4 defaults to HDMI, then digital, then analog for audio output.

My Core3 is set up with the two analog and one digital outputs but is defaulting to the two analogs first and then the digital as the third choice. Since I added an MQA DAC, I would really like the digital to be the first choice. Any ideas how to accomplish this and/or why the Core3 is going analog first?

And from I can tell, it is defaulting to Analog 2 first. 


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[ekohn00]

4 hours ago, BY96 said:

Earlier in the thread, it was mentioned that C4 defaults to HDMI, then digital, then analog for audio output.

My Core3 is set up with the two analog and one digital outputs but is defaulting to the two analogs first and then the digital as the third choice. Since I added an MQA DAC, I would really like the digital to be the first choice. Any ideas how to accomplish this and/or why the Core3 is going analog first?

And from I can tell, it is defaulting to Analog 2 first. 


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Remove the analog from the dac. Why have both paths defined?
 

[msgreenf]

The digital over analog only applies to control4 hardware. For other hardware. It just doesn't always know which is the right path. I bet the driver for your deck shows both as being analog so it doesn't know the difference

[BY96]

Remove the analog from the dac. Why have both paths defined?
 

I am not sure I understand what you mean, but the two analog outputs from the Core3 go directly to the matrix amp, while the digital output passes through the DAC. But again, I may not be following you.


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[chopedogg88]

I did the programming here.  Used my standard "DAC" driver that I made to represent the DAC, so it takes digital coax in and outputs analog.  My understanding is that Control4 sees that there is a digital path option from the CORE 3, and would use that first.  Perhaps I need to use the AV path setter driver instead?  Or perhaps the controller just needs a reboot since adding the digital path?

[BY96]

The digital over analog only applies to control4 hardware. For other hardware. It just doesn't always know which is the right path. I bet the driver for your deck shows both as being analog so it doesn't know the difference

As I responded above, only the digital output goes to the DAC, so I am not sure I follow why the DAC would need to know which is the correct path. But again, I just may not be understanding something.


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[BY96]

I did the programming here.  Used my standard "DAC" driver that I made to represent the DAC, so it takes digital coax in and outputs analog.  My understanding is that Control4 sees that there is a digital path option from the CORE 3, and would use that first.  Perhaps I need to use the AV path setter driver instead?  Or perhaps the controller just needs a reboot since adding the digital path?

Thanks for weighing in! I can try a reboot now and see if that works.


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[BY96]

Reboot did not help.


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[ekohn00]

41 minutes ago, BY96 said:

I am not sure I understand what you mean, but the two analog outputs from the Core3 go directly to the matrix amp, while the digital output passes through the DAC. But again, I may not be following you.


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my bad, i thought you had both digital and analog going to the dac.