zaphod Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 In their first gen equipment in the mid 2000s C4 made 4 and 8 zone matrix amps. Then they switched to mult-zone power amps that required a separate audio matrix switch. That continued after they acquired Triad as I do not believe that they offer matrix amps under the Triad brand, just multi-zone power amps. Why did they stop offering matrix amps as part of their lineup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopedogg88 Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 I don't have any inside info as to their reasoning, but my guess would be that they just figured they already had that in the Episode DSP series of amps, so why create another overlapping product within the Snap brand family? Separate matrix and Amp allows for more flexibility of install, because you can easily route audio outputs from the matrix to AVRs, various types of amps that are purpose fit for things like landscape speaker systems, hifi/2.1 zones, etc. GregCAMS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 When did they become part of the same family as Episode - wasn't that when Snap acquired C4? The C4-AMP108 was around for a long time before that happened, wasn't it? And that was the change - when they went from the C4-16AMP3-B to the C4-AMP108. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 C4 bought Triad that is when all new amps were under the traid name. As ari said, no real reason to have them under the c4 brand. Makes more sense as Triad (higher end), episode (mid-range) labels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 28 minutes ago, msgreenf said: C4 bought Triad that is when all new amps were under the traid name. As ari said, no real reason to have them under the c4 brand. Makes more sense as Triad (higher end), episode (mid-range) labels. Agreed, but they bought Triad in 2017, years after the C4-AMP108 was released which replaced the previous matrix amp. Or did they start partnering with Triad earlier and Triad produced the C4-AMP108 for C4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 11 minutes ago, zaphod said: Triad produced the C4-AMP108 I don't think so. I believe that is all c4 hardware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 Just now, msgreenf said: I don't think so. I believe that is all c4 hardware So then they made the conscious decision to go from matrix amps to non-matrix amps years before acquiring Triad, or being acquired by Snap. I am just wondering why they made that decision. I have been using C4 for over 15 years and the only hardware that I think I have that is 15 years old is Gen1 light switches and the matrix amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 As far as I understood it, it was to make system upgrades easier. That way if you need new amps, you don't have to replace the matrix. When you lose a combo piece of hardware, it's more costly to replace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 That makes sense. But it is likely I higher initial upfront cost to buy the two components so C4 increases revenue in the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 you can be negative and think it was to squeeze the customer, but I really don't think that was/is the intent SpencerT 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpencerT Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 54 minutes ago, msgreenf said: you can be negative and think it was to squeeze the customer, but I really don't think that was/is the intent To add... SNPO offers both as in house brands. Matrix and matrix amp. Additionally, Episode is not the only game in town when it comes to matrix amps. Nor is Triad the only game in town when it comes to matrices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 It’s also IMO but others in the industry as well that an analog solution while still very important in some ways, is an antiquated design when it comes to AV distribution. Something that should be done with MoIP or other digital scalable solutions. msgreenf and therockhr 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 8 minutes ago, Control4Savant said: It’s also IMO but others in the industry as well that an analog solution while still very important in some ways, is an antiquated design when it comes to AV distribution. Something that should be done with MoIP or other digital scalable solutions. Yeah for sure. Matrix amps (really all audio) should be something handled by 3rd party hardware. Same goes for thermostats. The only subsystem I would continue is lighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 39 minutes ago, Control4Savant said: It’s also IMO but others in the industry as well that an analog solution while still very important in some ways, is an antiquated design when it comes to AV distribution. Something that should be done with MoIP or other digital scalable solutions. But how would that work for ceiling speakers? Or would you no longer have ceiling speakers, just Sonos types of speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 3 hours ago, msgreenf said: you can be negative and think it was to squeeze the customer, but I really don't think that was/is the intent I am not being negative, just trying to figure out the economic implications. It could increase revenue in the short run, but decrease it in the long run as if there are issues people will only have to replace a matrix switch or amp, not both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, zaphod said: I am not being negative, just trying to figure out the economic implications. It could increase revenue in the short run, but decrease it in the long run as if there are issues people will only have to replace a matrix switch or amp, not both. why is it your economical impact to figure out for Snap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpencerT Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 2 hours ago, zaphod said: I am not being negative, just trying to figure out the economic implications. It could increase revenue in the short run, but decrease it in the long run as if there are issues people will only have to replace a matrix switch or amp, not both. I'll admit I'm not understanding the argument. Quality separates are always going to be more expensive (matrix and separate amplifiers vs matrixed amp, prepro or preamp and separate amplifier vs receiver or integrated, etc). Matrix vs matrix amp is not solely a financial decision for everyone. I don't run receivers or matrix amps. The financial differences aren't a decision point in my determination to run separates. I just prefer separates. SNPO offers both (separate matrix and amps, or matrixed amp). No one is forcing you into a matrix (or a matrix amp). Choose what works best for your project and budget. Plenty of options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopedogg88 Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 Control4 has offered a separate audio matrix for many years, way before the Triad line. Same with Crestron, Savant, and others. It's the more flexible approach because (like I stated earlier) if you need to route audio coming from various sources (control4 music, TVs, video sources, etc) to various types of amps and AVRs, you can't easily do that with a matrix Amp. Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk msgreenf and SpencerT 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted September 17, 2023 Author Share Posted September 17, 2023 18 minutes ago, SpencerT said: No one is forcing you into a matrix (or a matrix amp). Choose what works best for your project and budget. Plenty of options. I am not saying that. I am just saying that C4 offered matrix amps in its early lineup. Then they decided to go away from matrix amps to multi-zone amps that didn't have matrix functionality. That was years before they acquired Triad or were acquired by Snap One. I am just asking why they would have made that change when they went from Gen1 to Gen2 amps back in the early 2010s or so, I am not criticizing, just wondering why they made this decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 For all the reasons stated in this thread. It's just a better setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 power/dumb amp means you can use an audio matrix, a combo video/audio matrix, means you can use downscaling video matrices, or video over IP style solutions that have breakouts.......it's just more versatile, not to mention that likely over 50% (certainly FAR more for us) of setups had more than 8 zones of audio so you would need a matix anyway....so no more paying double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 My guess is they stopped making them because of cost to produce and/or parts weren’t available any more. Having those matrix amps also made it harder for people to upgrade systems if they added new zones or more sources. They were great at the time for those canned projects, but in the long run, scalability will always win. therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 1 hour ago, lippavisual said: They were great at the time for those canned projects, but in the long run, scalability will always win. This is probably the biggest reason. The use cases for those projects probably went to Sonos instead. I know I’ve already said it but the Russound MCA series is a great replacement for those old c4 matrix amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 2 hours ago, lippavisual said: and/or parts weren’t available any more Oh I'm sure that's why that particular model was stopped - but that in and of itself that isn't a reason to not make a different one. 1 hour ago, therockhr said: Russound MCA series is a great replacement for those old c4 matrix amps Yeah I'll pass - hard. Episode is probably my first pick if I don't do separates in this case (and if there's no specifically high quality audio requirement) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 46 minutes ago, Cyknight said: Yeah I'll pass - hard. Episode is probably my first pick if I don't do separates in this case (and if there's no specifically high quality audio requirement) You care to explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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