badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, THawes said: Global Cache and/or Card Access pieces coupled with, again, free drivers, are potentially cheaper & easier options in several cases I can think of than using a 3rd party driver. I would take my Honeywell wireless motion sensors with my vista integration any day over the card access ones. Also, I pay $30 for better motion sensors than the $300 CAD card access ones that have a third the range, and aren't as accurate. It CAN be done, yes, but then there are other costs by going with those. Sort of a bad example as C4 IS doing this driver but still. Use this same example on a plethora of other products. It can be done natively, with support gear, but it is even more expensive than third part and the driver. Some might say "Well quit bitching, if you can do the driver and third party gear cheaper than the C4 already then you are winning"... yes... however; look at the competition. That isn't even an argument with them because they DO have the drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, THawes said: I'm using 4 of the 1st-gen Control4 tstat's now, they seem to work just fine for me? Sure, some other presets, humidity, etc. would be nice someday but hey it works great right now. I know people using them as well. Some people actually seem to have them work However; look through this thread or talk to some installers. You my friend, are the exception not the rule. Again though, this is off topic. That is just one example. Ignore thermostats and the same issue is with a large grouping of other products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THawes Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, badjesus said: I would take my Honeywell wireless motion sensors with my vista integration any day over the card access ones. Sure, that works too. I'm using the ones from my DSC panel & IT-230 module with no problem myself. Works great and was... oh, free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, mstafford388 said: Customer A: I don't want to pay for drivers. Control4 should pay to develop them instead because it would be the right thing to do. Control4 Engineer: Hey, lets spend money to develop a driver for a honeywell wifi thermostat so people buy that one instead the thermostat we manufacture and sell for a profit. Control4 Suits: Great idea. lets spend money on something that will directly lead to our revenue going down. * Stock prices drop Customer A: Can you guys believe those guys running Control4. Look at their stock it's tanking. If only they would listen to guys like me who have all the answers they would be much better off. Obviously meant tongue in cheek but you get the point. http://www.cepro.com/article/control4_ceo_on_home_automation_standards_diy_pro_install “We might never make another thermostat,” says Plaehn, echoing the sentiment of the Control4 founders who built the company 10 years ago as a software provider that had to build its own hardware out of necessity. He adds, “We love it that there’s all these new devices. We can use the innovation of the rest of the world as our supply chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, therockhr said: http://www.cepro.com/article/control4_ceo_on_home_automation_standards_diy_pro_install “We might never make another thermostat,” says Plaehn, echoing the sentiment of the Control4 founders who built the company 10 years ago as a software provider that had to build its own hardware out of necessity. He adds, “We love it that there’s all these new devices. We can use the innovation of the rest of the world as our supply chain. And again, I can't upvote anymore Thanks for posting this. If only they would stand behind those words with other gear. Popular user driven gear. They did it with SONOS, NEST and a few others, so they aren't completely blind but there are SO Many other devices out there that are becoming the targeted options for competitors. So may VERY popular smart "internet of things" devices that C4 is ignoring. Open source, closed source, whatever the reason. Competition has it and is doing it so it isn't impossible. It is a choice. And whether or not it is a smart choice I guess the shareholders will decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, badjesus said: Except they didn't develop the thermostat. They realized theirs was garbage so they had April Air do it instead But, while I keep using that one example, what about the thousands of products C4 doesn't actually make. Also, what if they DIDN'T spend the R and D on something that someone else is already doing better and instead just built the driver? I get your point, but I don't think it has all of the variables in it. Also, we aren't saying "Driver for nothing". We are just saying other options and for the basic products that EVERYONE else is doing for free, C4 should probably realize there is a reason why their competitors did it. They still make money on those thermostats though so you get my point You're right though there are a ton of variables to something like this and I think it's very, very difficult for us as end users or even dealers to pretend to know what all of them are just from the experiences we've had with Control4 in our little bubble. I am curious though, who are these other companies that are writing drivers for 3rd party devices left and right for free? I ask seriously, I'm probably uneducated with other companies offerings with stuff like this. I do know in a lot of the same places you can buy Control4 drivers you can also buy URC or RTI drivers for instance.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 minute ago, mstafford388 said: I am curious though, who are these other companies that are writing drivers for 3rd party devices left and right for free? I ask seriously, I'm probably uneducated with other companies offerings with stuff like this. I do know in a lot of the same places you can buy Control4 drivers you can also buy URC or RTI drivers for instance.. Simple Control, Smartthings, Harmony, Wink, Lutron, Zonoff, all control Honeywell Wifi thermostats without an extra license. If Control4 wants to expand their user base then not charging extra to control a user's existing device is a good way to start. Little things like that is why I can't see them getting the amount of users the stock holders want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatheed Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Cyknight said: The 'EV crew' is spitting out drivers almost weekly (often by the dozens at a time). This is the reality being ignored. I'm reemphasizing it. Control4 has spent added millions on driver development the last few years (buying EV and employing them). The Control4 ecosystem also benefits from a strong third-party developer ecosystem. That there are drivers others build and can sell is a GOOD thing. Both sides of the equation are a boon for dealers and customers, Control4 building free drivers (which they ARE) and developers building paid drivers. But keep ignoring the facts of the situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just another exmaple, while Chow has an AMAZING driver, a 1 minute ago, mstafford388 said: They still make money on those thermostats though so you get my point You're right though there are a ton of variables to something like this and I think it's very, very difficult for us as end users or even dealers to pretend to know what all of them are just from the experiences we've had with Control4 in our little bubble. I am curious though, who are these other companies that are writing drivers for 3rd party devices left and right for free? I ask seriously, I'm probably uneducated with other companies offerings with stuff like this. I do know in a lot of the same places you can buy Control4 drivers you can also buy URC or RTI drivers for instance.. Most of them, people here won't consider direct competition to C4. This is going to create a whole other argument but in my opinion it is ANY other "smart device hub" system on the market. Most noteably would be SmartThings in my opinion. I was blind to what all they have on the go till I joined their user forums and started poking around. I have NO idea it had that much control, and the money Samsung is throwing at it makes me very curious where it will be in 2 years. But there is URC, logitech's new harmony hub, Wink (GE), Honeywell gear, Vivant, Apple and few hundred more. Even Savant seems to have a lot more of the internet-of-things drivers available. Even systems that you wouldn't consider home automation controllers like NEST are starting to integrate with all of the other popular devices in various ways out of the box. My OOMA can forward to my cell automatically if NEST shows me out of the house. Just little things like this that are HUGE to a consumer's user-ability. They may not be asking for it, but the DIY guys are all over it and it is a growing community that where the gap between smaller hubs and C4 used to be night and day, that gap is now getting smaller and smaller by the month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, mstafford388 said: I am curious though, who are these other companies that are writing drivers for 3rd party devices left and right for free? I am not sure why this keeps getting put to FREE. That was one option that we said would be nice because some others are FREE but keep in mind my first post stated other options that weren't just FREE. What about reasonable? A $70 device shouldn't have a $200 driver. Also, subscription options instantly opens this up to the realm of affordable for a lot of users. I know a lot of people that would pay $20 a month long term instead of $200 up front. It may sound silly as it is more expensive in the long run but it makes the over all maintenance of a system a lot more affordable. It also allows cash flow freed up for luxury items like other C4 hardware. Edit: While I know that I might be alone on this one, I would actually pay $50 a month just to be able to try houselogix drivers. I know they offer a free trial but in my schedule I barely get it hooked up before my trial is expired. To me, with gear you use every day, to truly test it is 90 days. That is when you get it into your daily schedule, really get to use it, and see if it is worth it for you. I would pay $50 a month just to try out more of their drivers, just to be able to save my time that I don't have in the evenings to work on my system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, badjesus said: I am not sure why this keeps getting put to FREE. That was one option that we said would be nice because some others are FREE but keep in mind my first post stated other options that weren't just FREE. What about reasonable? A $70 device shouldn't have a $200 driver. Also, subscription options instantly opens this up to the realm of affordable for a lot of users. I know a lot of people that would pay $20 a month long term instead of $200 up front. It may sound silly as it is more expensive in the long run but it makes the over all maintenance of a system a lot more affordable. It also allows cash flow freed up for luxury items like other C4 hardware. Sorry, most other people posting keep saying free so it's jammed in my mind. Bottom line is unless Control4 develops the driver they have no control over the cost. Unless they pull an EV and purchase the company that developed it, in which case they do control the cost. So as far as I know, every driver that Control4 has developed or purchased is now offered for free, which I think we can all agree is a reasonable price. So I would guess your holdup at the moment is they haven't developed enough, which is an opinion your entitled to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: This is the reality being ignored. I'm reemphasizing it. Control4 has spent added millions on driver development the last few years (buying EV and employing them). The Control4 ecosystem also benefits from a strong third-party developer ecosystem. That there are drivers others build and can sell is a GOOD thing. Both sides of the equation are a boon for dealers and customers, Control4 building free drivers (which they ARE) and developers building paid drivers. But keep ignoring the facts of the situation... Yes, customers are thrilled that instead of Control4 making a driver for arguably the most popular brand of thermostats (Honeywell) that you have to get it from a 3rd party for 2 to 3 times what you paid for the device itself. I'm sure Honeywell is thrilled that Control4 dealers have to charge a premium to integrate their thermostats knowing that if someone is set on using Control4 that they will probably go with another brand (Nest) that has a free driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: This is the reality being ignored. I'm reemphasizing it. Control4 has spent added millions on driver development the last few years (buying EV and employing them). The Control4 ecosystem also benefits from a strong third-party developer ecosystem. That there are drivers others build and can sell is a GOOD thing. Both sides of the equation are a boon for dealers and customers, Control4 building free drivers (which they ARE) and developers building paid drivers. But keep ignoring the facts of the situation... I don't know why I am replying to you again. We aren't talking about drivers in general. We are talking about the most commonly used "smart devices" that competitors are going after. Doing a driver for EVERY individual Sony TV over the last 5 years isn't really what we are discussing. You are completing missing ALL OF OUR points (on both sides) and instead calling us ignorant when you are having your own discussion void of everyone else in this thread. We all know there ARE free drivers. That is not what we are talking about. We all know how to submit requests. We all know that EV is employed by C4. Again, NONE of that is relevant to THIS discussion. You seem to be the ONLY one not understanding that. We are all short sighted, myopic and ignorant yet you are the only one ignoring the entire point of this discussion and just having your own discussion with point that may be accurate, but are not relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 minute ago, therockhr said: Yes, customers are thrilled that instead of Control4 making a driver for arguably the most popular brand of thermostats (Honeywell) that you have to get it from a 3rd party for 2 to 3 times what you paid for the device itself. I'm sure Honeywell is thrilled that Control4 dealers have to charge a premium to integrate their thermostats knowing that if someone is set on using Control4 that they will probably go with another brand (Nest) that has a free driver. Do you realize that a honeywell thermostat is direct competition to a product sold by C4? Why would they go out of their way to make sure honeywell is "thrilled"? Not to mention I doubt honeywell cares about Control4 making it slightly less likely a C4 end user would buy a honeywell thermostat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 minute ago, mstafford388 said: Do you realize that a honeywell thermostat is direct competition to a product sold by C4? Why would they go out of their way to make sure honeywell is "thrilled"? How about because they will sell more C4 systems? That is not C4's model, never has been. They do integration with everyone. By that logic, why did they do the nest driver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 minute ago, mstafford388 said: Do you realize that a honeywell thermostat is direct competition to a product sold by C4? Why would they go out of their way to make sure honeywell is "thrilled"? If you are in the business of software integration you should be in the business of making those types of companies happy. Control4 and Honeywell have partnerships on many fronts. Control4 makes lots of drivers for companies that have a competing product: Russound, Nuvo, Sonos, Nest, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, badjesus said: How about because they will sell more C4 systems? That is not C4's model, never has been. They do integration with everyone. By that logic, why did they do the nest driver? I see your point but do we honestly think there are a significant people out there basing their decision on whether or not to get into a Control4 system on it's ability to integrate a honeywell thermostat without having to purchase an expensive driver. Man how do we keep letting this get back to that stupid thermostat, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, mstafford388 said: Sorry, most other people posting keep saying free so it's jammed in my mind. Bottom line is unless Control4 develops the driver they have no control over the cost. Unless they pull an EV and purchase the company that developed it, in which case they do control the cost. So as far as I know, every driver that Control4 has developed or purchased is now offered for free, which I think we can all agree is a reasonable price. So I would guess your holdup at the moment is they haven't developed enough, which is an opinion your entitled to have. So now you are stating my original point. C4 should buy houselogix JUST like they did EV. Which was more of a statement than an actual possible solution to the problem I feel is forcing a large market of people to competition. Which hurts us all by the way. I have seen on this forum a lot "If you want the other gear, go use it and go away". Well that is fine, but that hurts the entire C4 community. The more people using C4, the greater the product will be. IMO they should be doing whatever they can do get the widest array of users. They already ahve dealer support. so whatever drivers are there, the dealers will sell the customers on. So now, I feel they should be working on the smart array of devices that the DIY'ers want. If they can get that market, and get them an option, even if they need a dealer to get the hardware and do initial programming.... it is stil viable. But the cost needs to be transparent. Right now a DIY'er has NO idea what the cost of drivers are because there isn't even a retail. Some companies will charge $500 for a $100 driver and some will charge $100 with a set up fee of $50 or whatever. At the very least, how about a set retail? (Don't over retail it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, mstafford388 said: I see your point but do we honestly think there are a significant people out there basing their decision on whether or not to get into a Control4 system on it's ability to integrate a honeywell thermostat without having to purchase an expensive driver. Man how do we keep letting this get back to that stupid thermostat, lol Lol, yes and No. DIY'ers are after the cool, smart, trendy devices. Yes, trendy may mean why develop a driver when it is hot now and won't be next week, but the reason is because everyone else is doing it and that is what the consumer is seeing. When the $50 hubs have it for free, why doesn't C4 have an affordable option at all? Often on this forum people ignore the DIY'ers. But they really shouldn't any more. LIke I said, that gap is closing. Last year I would have agreed that those consumer hubs are not even remotely in a similar space as C4 but that is just slowly not becoming the case anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, badjesus said: Lol, yes and No. DIY'ers are after the cool, smart, trendy devices. Yes, trendy may mean why develop a driver when it is hot now and won't be next week, but the reason is because everyone else is doing it and that is what the consumer is seeing. When the $50 hubs have it for free, why doesn't C4 have an affordable option at all? I 'm pretty sure neither one of us thinks for a second that C4 is after the DIY'ers. Agree or disagree with that, at the moment that doesn't seem like something they are even remotely taking into account when making decisions. A houselogix purchase would be great but might be tougher than the EV purchase for a few reasons. First, I'm not sure houselogix has a single driver that brings anything close to the value that the EV sonos driver had at the time. Second houselogix has drivers contributed by several different sources so I'm sure that would create some red tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatheed Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 AAAAAND there it is. We have now devolved into another DIY argument. [sarcasm] YAYYYY![/sarcasm] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 19 minutes ago, therockhr said: Yes, customers are thrilled that instead of Control4 making a driver for arguably the most popular brand of thermostats (Honeywell) that you have to get it from a 3rd party for 2 to 3 times what you paid for the device itself. I'm sure Honeywell is thrilled that Control4 dealers have to charge a premium to integrate their thermostats knowing that if someone is set on using Control4 that they will probably go with another brand (Nest) that has a free driver. I do not think "most popular" means what you think it means. Honeywell thermostats are nowhere near the 'most popular' 3rd party thermostats out there. I'm not even sure they're the second most popular HA-integrated thermostat. Also, the original Control4 thermostats worked *very well* if you had a common wire, and didn't try and use power stealing. They were fairly full-featured (especially 10+ years ago, at the time of their release.). The new thermostat was jointly designed by Aprilaire and Control4, and works even better. As far as Control4 buying X, Y, and/or Z, I'm staying out of that conversation, obviously. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 18 minutes ago, RyanE said: I do not think "most popular" means what you think it means. Honeywell thermostats are nowhere near the 'most popular' 3rd party thermostats out there. I'm not even sure they're the second most popular HA-integrated thermostat. Also, the original Control4 thermostats worked *very well* if you had a common wire, and didn't try and use power stealing. They were fairly full-featured (especially 10+ years ago, at the time of their release.). The new thermostat was jointly designed by Aprilaire and Control4, and works even better. As far as Control4 buying X, Y, and/or Z, I'm staying out of that conversation, obviously. RyanE Hey Ryan, I am glad you posted. I definitely value your opinion. I am curious though, how is honeywell NOT one of the most popular? I think it is moot as the thermostats is just a small example, but I am curious. As the number 1 thermostat on the market, how would they not be the most popular out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 24 minutes ago, mstafford388 said: I 'm pretty sure neither one of us thinks for a second that C4 is after the DIY'ers. Agree or disagree with that, at the moment that doesn't seem like something they are even remotely taking into account when making decisions. A houselogix purchase would be great but might be tougher than the EV purchase for a few reasons. First, I'm not sure houselogix has a single driver that brings anything close to the value that the EV sonos driver had at the time. Second houselogix has drivers contributed by several different sources so I'm sure that would create some red tape. Yeah, these are very good points. Houselgoix on it's own doesn't have the drivers EV did. It is the independent contractor partnerships that Houselogix has that is creating the wealth of drivers. That is very valid, as if C4 did buy houselogix they wouldn't also be buying Chow, DomAudeo, EricSales and the others. I agree C4 doesn't care about DIY'ers but I am not sure they SHOULD at this point. When I say DIY as well, I am not referring to the guy that is completely doing it on his own. I mean the guy going online before choosing home automation. He wants to pay someone to do it, but he wants to do his own research first. So unlike the troll that is still posting here, not a discussion of the same old DIY discussion but just the guy that is doing a lot of research on his own. This is the market that is growing incredibly. Truth be told, everyone I know and when you go through forums, even the WINK and SmartThings of the world are having friends or family members help them out. Also, stores. The geek squads of the world are doing a lot of this stuff. So it isn't completely removed from a dealer model, it is just the more educated consumer that doesn't have transparency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, badjesus said: Hey Ryan, I am glad you posted. I definitely value your opinion. I am curious though, how is honeywell NOT one of the most popular? I think it is moot as the thermostats is just a small example, but I am curious. As the number 1 thermostat on the market, how would they not be the most popular out there? What was stated is *not* "one" of the most popular, which could certainly be argued. What was stated is "arguably the *most* popular". While I'd *certainly* agree that Honeywell may be the number 1 thermostat maker in the overall market (non-HA thermostats included), everything I've read and seen indicates that Honeywell's Lyric thermostats are quite a ways behind the Nest in terms of market share. Personal experience backs it up in my head... I've personally *never* seen a Lyric 'in the wild', and I see the Nest all the time, including Saturday when I took the Suburban in to my local place to get the water pump fixed. If my mechanic is installing Nest thermostats, they're fairly ubiquitous. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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