therockhr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: NO! This shows the opposite of your point. Control4 takes into account if drivers will be based on an official API, etc. Customers do not. http://yourhome.honeywell.com/en/partners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 8 minutes ago, msgreenf said: but there's is using custom hardware - so its not the same as the control4 driver No, the one I am talking about is their RS232 driver not the keypad emulator. They have both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 You really are sad. That is our mechanism? Are you that obtuse or are you just purposely trying to be a troll on this thread? You have not supplied a single ounce of support to either side of this discussion. I will be ignoring your posts from here on out. Driver request email with NO feedback is not the solution when It's not even worth replying to him anymore. He is just a troll to this discussion. So far Cyknight and Msgreef have made valid points to our arguments yet this child just keeps posting arrogance. Just ignore him. Quoting him just perpetuates it. He thinks that an email for driver submissions with no feedback is the same as competitor sites that have discussion groups and voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatheed Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, badjesus said: You really are sad. That is our mechanism? Are you that obtuse or are you just purposely trying to be a troll on this thread? You have not supplied a single ounce of support to either side of this discussion. I will be ignoring your posts from here on out. Driver request email with NO feedback is not the solution when It's not even worth replying to him anymore. He is just a troll to this discussion. So far Cyknight and Msgreef have made valid points to our arguments yet this child just keeps posting arrogance. Just ignore him. Quoting him just perpetuates it. He thinks that an email for driver submissions with no feedback is the same as competitor sites that have discussion groups and voting. yes you TOTALLY make your point once you devolve into straight up insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 30 minutes ago, badjesus said: I thought they did. I stand corrected. The only point is that competitors aren't. So even if there is "good reason" then why are competitors not afraid? No, they SHOULDN'T but it WOULD be nice and other companies ARE offering this right now. So they shouldn't have to, nor do I feel they are in the wrong by NOT doing so. Just an idea I through out as others ARE doing it. I DO agree with this, which is why I have reiterated a few times now that there needs to still be this market for premium drivers. My point was digressed down to the type of drivers other companies are considering to be more standard. Such as the Honeywell WiFi, or the Vista panels (whether in the works or not, right now the only option is paid), MyQ, etc. These are just a handful of examples, but browsing competitors you will see there is a huge missing crater of key drivers. It is just something to keep in mind for customers that most don't budget for, that adds a HUGE COST. If that cost wasn't so massive, it would open up the popularity A LOT of C4 and allow for more development to occur. Houselogix and other 3rd party developers are not publicly traded companies (to the best of my knowledge). C4 is a publicly traded company and from what I've been told, they just cannot go around do hack's to closed APIs to create drivers. They tend to need official agreements and avenues to develop their drivers and need support/approval from the device manufacture. That is why you see them as "official partners" and part of these programs with certain vendors. I've had joy and frustration with 3rd party developed drivers from day 1, some are great, others were a rip, did not work, always break when APIs change, etc. It is far from perfect and if I were helping a friend scope out a C4 system I would try to minimize their reliance on 3rd party drivers and focus on what is supported directly by C4 due to less headaches. Just my $.02 as I am waiting to work with my dealer on buying 2 more 3rd party drivers ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, eggzlot said: I've had joy and frustration with 3rd party developed drivers from day 1, some are great, others were a rip, did not work, always break when APIs change, etc. It is far from perfect and if I were helping a friend scope out a C4 system I would try to minimize their reliance on 3rd party drivers and focus on what is supported directly by C4 due to less headaches. Just my $.02 as I am waiting to work with my dealer on buying 2 more 3rd party drivers ;-) This is a VERY valid point. This really should be thought of in advance... but sometimes it just isn't transparent to the DIY guy that wants to plan out his system and then find a dealer, or the guy online researching his options before he decides to go for C4. You can see there IS a driver but you have no idea of the costs prior to contacting your dealer. Well sometimes you want to do your own research before you go find a dealer for that platform. For example, what if they choose that everything they want to do can be done at a 1/10th the cost with SmartThings. They can't accurately get an idea of cost prior to making a decision on platform let alone dealer. Granted, the argument to this will be that this is NOT C4's model.... and I get that... but maybe it should start becoming part of their model as clearly their competitors are starting to understand it. 11 minutes ago, eggzlot said: Houselogix and other 3rd party developers are not publicly traded companies (to the best of my knowledge). C4 is a publicly traded company and from what I've been told, they just cannot go around do hack's to closed APIs to create drivers. They tend to need official agreements and avenues to develop their drivers and need support/approval from the device manufacture. That is why you see them as "official partners" and part of these programs with certain vendors. I think this is only for closed API's. Not for open API's. They wouldn't need any permissions for open API's but as OPEN api's can change without notice I think this is what Cyknight was mentioning about their hesitance. But, it also isn't stopping competitors from doing it. I think C4 just needs to apply more resources and cost to consumer requested drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 41 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: NO! This shows the opposite of your point. Control4 takes into account if drivers will be based on an official API, etc. Customers do not. Exactly. Public traded company vs private owned (and out of the spotlight). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 You know, reading back through this post, I think one thing is starting to be clear here. While most long time dealers that work closely with C4 will always take the opposite stance to me in these threads, there are A LOT more of us that are in love with our C4 systems that want change, because we see it in the consumer side from competitors. 2 years ago, this discussion would have went much different. Not a single person would have agreed with me. The fact that we are starting to see this change (while it is a small sample) I believe is also starting to show the necessity for a loss of some of the hardcore CI ideologies that revolve around C4. Sometimes the consumer is just to ignorant to know what they want, and from a business stand point that may be accurate but you have a large world developing of DIY'ers that have money to spend, and C4 is forcing their hand to the competition. Just my $.02. I know this can be argued A LOT and I know that this will commonly be argued and has before so you don't need to quote this and argue again. I know my opinion here is the minority, but I do think it is starting to be LESS of a minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 And as I mentioned - that doesn't use the new proxy, and drivers for Vista panels have been available (without the new proxy) from C4 for years. 38 minutes ago, badjesus said: No, the one I am talking about is their RS232 driver not the keypad emulator. They have both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Cyknight said: Exactly. Public traded company vs private owned (and out of the spotlight). Companies like Samsung and Apple are private? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, badjesus said: I think this is only for closed API's. Not for open API's. They wouldn't need any permissions for open API's but as OPEN api's can change without notice I think this is what Cyknight was mentioning about their hesitance. But, it also isn't stopping competitors from doing it. I think C4 just needs to apply more resources and cost to consumer requested drivers. Correct- closed API needs partnership - OPEN can be done without BUT then there is limited warning on changes. Understand that they DO use them, but want to make sure it's relatively stable (part of why they may wait to push it out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chico Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 badjesus, I think you hit the nail on the head on one argument: Developers (Control4 included) have this "there's already a driver for it" attitude that for some reason causes them to stop developing their own drivers. There's a lack of competition among developers in the CI industry. This attitude that just because there's a driver already, therefore nobody will develop another one is causing a monopoly allowing developers to charge $200 for a driver to control a $70 device. They can charge whatever they want. But it would be nice to pay $200 because it's worth it, not because it's the only way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, badjesus said: Companies like Samsung and Apple are private? When's the last time either one of those created an app for a 3rd party without permission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THawes Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 hour ago, badjesus said: Some of those drivers are KEY to every day usability for a younger generation of people getting in to C4. Jumping in late here. I have a decent sized Control4 system that's growing weekly and I am currently not using 1 single paid driver and a fair amount of 3rd party devices are integrated. Some of these include: Roku's TiVo's a Fire TV Kodi Fusion Research media player Grace Digital tuner an Apple TV Vera ZWave switches & dimmers Security panel w/ the new proxy Garage doors via relays & contacts All of those drivers are available, right now to you through Control4 for a big old price of $0. Are there some paid drivers that I'd like to use? Sure... Alan's Kodi driver is high on the list of things to purchase soon which will really bring the Kodi integration to the next level. But for now the free one has worked out great. I'd much rather see Control4 continue to focus on their own hardware & software enhancements, and pump out some solid drivers that are used by a majority of the user base, than have them focus on drivers used by only the smaller percentages of customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Chico said: But it would be nice to pay $200 because it's worth it, not because it's the only way. Said elegantly and perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Chico said: badjesus, I think you hit the nail on the head on one argument: Developers (Control4 included) have this "there's already a driver for it" attitude that for some reason causes them to stop developing their own drivers. There's a lack of competition among developers in the CI industry. This attitude that just because there's a driver already, therefore nobody will develop another one is causing a monopoly allowing developers to charge $200 for a driver to control a $70 device. They can charge whatever they want. But it would be nice to pay $200 because it's worth it, not because it's the only way. And the fact that C4 developed drivers for Roku (in this scenario a more advanced version), Blue Iris and AppleTV AFTER others made paid drivers falls in line how here? Most (though not all) drivers that cost so relatively much do not cost it because 'it's the only way' but because (rightly or wrongly) those are prices projected to create a return on investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Cyknight said: When's the last time either one of those created an app for a 3rd party without permission? You mean every day? Maybe apple is a bit of a bad example but look at smart things forums. I am surprised the thing things they are doing with what was normally considered a completely different market than C4. Sorry, but I have seen now some pretty amazing smart thing systems that do EVERYTHING my C4 system is currently doing and appear to be just as stable as well. Media and security is no longer the reason to go C4. I personally don't consider the logitech smart hub as a viable media solution but that is up to the user to decide when going through smart things interface. I would still do C4 any day of the week. There is still a large gap between c4 and smart things, but I have to admit, the gap is narrowing quicker than I thought it would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 there are also competitive drivers for FireTV... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, THawes said: All of those drivers are available, right now to you through Control4 for a big old price of $0. Are there some paid drivers that I'd like to use? Sure... Alan's Kodi driver is high on the list of things to purchase soon which will really bring the Kodi integration to the next level. But for now the free one has worked out great. I'd much rather see Control4 continue to focus on their own hardware & software enhancements, and pump out some solid drivers that are used by a majority of the user base, than have them focus on drivers used by only the smaller percentages of customers. See I would rather have C4 NOT work on their own hardware. Even C4 I believe has started to realize this with things like their new thermostat. And I agree, you CAN get away with a lot of free drivers, and you can do things with relays and contacts but some retrofits means this is a lot more expensive just purely due to labor so you have the same problem. If I can get a $70 thermostat that works just as good as C4's, and all I need is a very simple, basic driver to use it that should be worth $50, then that would be sweet and adds value to ALL customers. My honeywell thermostats are awesome. I have 2 of them, and they have been flawless. In fact, when my HC800 crashed I could still adjust my A/C by going into my honeywell app. I bought the driver, and for me it was fine, but for others, it is ALOT of money. My thermostats aren't the $70 honeywells, but for that person who's budget is a $70 thermostat, then clearly $200 for a driver is not an option. Again, the argument of Porsche drivers shouldn't complain about gas... yes. But that is a lot of Honda drivers that are being forced to spend their money elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin L Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Unfortunately I am out of upvotes lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Customer A: I don't want to pay for drivers. Control4 should pay to develop them instead because it would be the right thing to do. Control4 Engineer: Hey, lets spend money to develop a driver for a honeywell wifi thermostat so people buy that one instead the thermostat we manufacture and sell for a profit. Control4 Suits: Great idea. lets spend money on something that will directly lead to our revenue going down. * Stock prices drop Customer A: Can you guys believe those guys running Control4. Look at their stock it's tanking. If only they would listen to guys like me who have all the answers they would be much better off. Obviously meant tongue in cheek but you get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THawes Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, badjesus said: and you can do things with relays and contacts but some retrofits means this is a lot more expensive just purely due to labor so you have the same problem Global Cache and/or Card Access pieces coupled with, again, free drivers, are potentially cheaper & easier options in several cases I can think of than using a 3rd party driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Except they didn't develop the thermostat. They realized theirs was garbage so they had April Air do it instead But, while I keep using that one example, what about the thousands of products C4 doesn't actually make. Also, what if they DIDN'T spend the R and D on something that someone else is already doing better and instead just built the driver? I get your point, but I don't think it has all of the variables in it. Also, we aren't saying "Driver for nothing". We are just saying other options and for the basic products that EVERYONE else is doing for free, C4 should probably realize there is a reason why their competitors did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THawes Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 minute ago, badjesus said: Except they didn't develop the thermostat. They realized theirs was garbage so they had April Air do it instead I'm using 4 of the 1st-gen Control4 tstat's now, they seem to work just fine for me? Sure, some other presets, humidity, etc. would be nice someday but hey it works great right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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