badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, RyanE said: What was stated is *not* "one" of the most popular, which could certainly be argued. What was stated is "arguably the *most* popular". While I'd *certainly* agree that Honeywell may be the number 1 thermostat maker in the overall market (non-HA thermostats included), everything I've read and seen indicates that Honeywell's Lyric thermostats are quite a ways behind the Nest in terms of market share. Personal experience backs it up in my head... I've personally *never* seen a Lyric 'in the wild', and I see the Nest all the time, including Saturday when I took the Suburban in to my local place to get the water pump fixed. If my mechanic is installing Nest thermostats, they're fairly ubiquitous. RyanE Oh I see. Yes for sure. The lyric is behind the NEST FOR SURE. However; it looks like from what I can see doing searches online and what I see in the retail market is that the Honeywell entry level WIFI units are outselling NEST nearly 2 to 1. I am just looking at rough numbers from NPD but that is what it looks like (not broken down as transparently as it could be to make this definitive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 @RyanE I am sure this can't be mentioned but I am curious as well if C4 decides driver development at all based upon consumer sales reports from various companies? Such as NPD? Not consumer rating company, but actual shared retail sales data from big box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I personally think it makes most sense for Control4 to own the driver for the *top* device in every device type/category. In some cases, if there are 2 'top' devices in a category, Control4 would probably want to own the driver for both. It may be the case that at some point, Control4 would want to own a Honeywell Lyric driver, and at that point, would have to decide how to go about obtaining that driver, whether purchasing it from a developer, developing their own, etc. I also think that the EV purchase was a fairly singular event, in that EV had a *lot* of drivers for devices which were in the top of their category, as well as a *lot* of drivers for non-US products, and one of the long-time complaints from Europe is that Control4 didn't cover European products well enough. Note: This is all *my* opinion, and nowhere near a Control4 doctrine, and I don't have first-hand knowledge of all the ins and outs of the EV purchase. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, badjesus said: @RyanE I am sure this can't be mentioned but I am curious as well if C4 decides driver development at all based upon consumer sales reports from various companies? Such as NPD? Not consumer rating company, but actual shared retail sales data from big box? I don't know the answer to the 'consumer sales reports' question, although I will say that I do know that Control4 has and will develop drivers based on feedback from dealers, both through the Control4 forums as well as the email submission mentioned previously, and also recommendations from Control4 Field Sales Management, which hears what dealers find popular based on what they're seeing in field visits. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 hours ago, badjesus said: You mean every day? Maybe apple is a bit of a bad example but look at smart things forums. I am surprised the thing things they are doing with what was normally considered a completely different market than C4. Sorry, but I have seen now some pretty amazing smart thing systems that do EVERYTHING my C4 system is currently doing and appear to be just as stable as well. Media and security is no longer the reason to go C4. I personally don't consider the logitech smart hub as a viable media solution but that is up to the user to decide when going through smart things interface. I would still do C4 any day of the week. There is still a large gap between c4 and smart things, but I have to admit, the gap is narrowing quicker than I thought it would have. I'd love to get an example of an app either one developed THEMSELVES to control a third party device without said third party's consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 42 minutes ago, badjesus said: how is honeywell NOT one of the most popular Depends on what you count - ALL types of thermostats, or thermostats that have the ability to communicate (and thus some chance of being integrated into something else) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Cyknight said: I'd love to get an example of an app either one developed THEMSELVES to control a third party device without said third party's consent. There are plenty of examples of Smartthings controlling things with no official or even documented API but its not relevant to this conversation. The question is why does Control4 not develop its own drivers for some popular products that have existing open or invite only API's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Cyknight said: Depends on what you count - ALL types of thermostats, or thermostats that have the ability to communicate (and thus some chance of being integrated into something else) Yeah for sure. But I was only considering the WIFI (API) connected units. Like Ecobee, Honeywell WIFI, NEST, etc. Remember that Honeywell doesn't have many non WIFI units anymore at places like Lowes and HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 14 minutes ago, Cyknight said: I'd love to get an example of an app either one developed THEMSELVES to control a third party device without said third party's consent. Well this is just an assumption. I can't prove they did anymore than you can prove they didn't. I just don't see the point? Why would you get their approval? If they have an open API that is open to development, why would they? If legal requirements absolve them from having to get consent to an open API, why would they bother I guess is my only point. With something closed, I definitely get it. You need to go seek approval. But for example I can go make a Google maps driver right now, without Google's consent because they allow that under their licensing model. I could do a Wordpress.com blog post update from C4 driver because that is open and under license. So why go actively seek consent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 So now you are stating my original point. C4 should buy houselogix JUST like they did EV. Which was more of a statement than an actual possible solution to the problem I feel is forcing a large market of people to competition. !) But what are you buying. Rhetorically you are buying the ip they own. Which is not all the ip they distribute. Further, that ip needs to be maintained. I would think a better model is that control4 buys or commission popular drivers. I'm sure Alan has an idea what he expects to earn from a particular driver. Instead of receiving that as an annuity if he got a buyout he may be willing to take that. Bit like a actor. Do you take a share of thr box office / streaming / DVD / merch (Gross or net) or a salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, SMHarman said: But what are you buying. Rhetorically you are buying the ip they own. Which is not all the ip they distribute. Further, that ip needs to be maintained. I would think a better model is that control4 buys or commission popular drivers. I'm sure Alan has an idea what he expects to earn from a particular driver. Instead of receiving that as an annuity if he got a buyout he may be willing to take that. Bit like a actor. Do you take a share of thr box office / streaming / DVD / merch (Gross or net) or a salary. Yeah for sure, these are all very good points. I did mention this as well a few times in this thread. I get that houselogix isn't just in house drivers, but rather a market place for other developers. When Alan was selling through EV, not all of his drivers went with it to my understanding. So I am sure the same thing would happen which also bring me back to my reiteration that it was more of a bold statement to the root of the issue, that the existing system is broken, not that buying Houselogix is the best solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 15 minutes ago, badjesus said: Well this is just an assumption. I can't prove they did anymore than you can prove they didn't. I just don't see the point? Why would you get their approval? Except that I could probably prove exactly that, because neither Apple or Samsung make all that many apps themselves at all - and I'd be surprised if there's anything that touches something they don't own. The point being that you're relegated once again to apps that are made by 3rd part developers - and every one of them is PAID unless they happen to be made by (or paid for by) the 3rd party. Remember, even the most 'free' app in the store depends on the advertising it gets, not to mention the explosion of 'freemium' outside of games. In the end, you started the thread with the header : Quote Houselogix need to be sold to C4! And saying the drivers are too much money - and that C4 should bear the brunt of that (even your suggestion of a 'small fee' for premium drivers would indicate you want C4 to bear the brunt of the cost). My argument is that the prices you see are due to them being reasonable (mostly) to recoop cost in a timely manor based on the numbers they'd sell - and to pay for continuing developing not to mention supporting it. Those numbers wouldn't shift dramatically just because C4 pays for it first, then charges through for it. Understand that those free drivers you get from control4 need that same return value plus covering maintaining and supporting them - and that you DO pay for all that - via your hardware and subscriptions. Any major changes to shift all this to a non-charge from Control4 (or minimal charge from control4) would result in to an increase in prices there. Here's an argument: should YOU be paying because a few OTHER people want to use fancy drivers? The idea of a C4 controlled marketplace has been uttered too - that's its own discussion and has valid points both ways, but again, the end result wouldn't be much different for you. And again yes, the CAD sucks right now - on the other hand, nobody this side of the border was complaining about that hen the CAD was above par..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOutsider Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Houselogix is my dealer so perhaps I have a different experience, but don't dealers get volume pricing on some third party drivers to offer to their customers and then roll it all into the cost of setting up the component? This went from buy Houselogix, to (a reasonable), c4 should be doing more in house, to HL should price things in CAD because of the dollar right now. With the above, I can see how the word myopic is getting thrown around because it sounds very much like "my particular situation isn't being addressed so there needs to be widespread change" As for your brother, I get why the Porsche thing was thrown in. If he's that price sensitive, then perhaps he should go for a system that is cheaper to own and operate. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, Cyknight said: Except that I could probably prove exactly that, because neither Apple or Samsung make all that many apps themselves at all - and I'd be surprised if there's anything that touches something they don't own. The point being that you're relegated once again to apps that are made by 3rd part developers - and every one of them is PAID unless they happen to be made by (or paid for by) the 3rd party. Remember, even the most 'free' app in the store depends on the advertising it gets, not to mention the explosion of 'freemium' outside of games. Confusion of verbage. We are talking about the add on aps for SmartThings, nor for their phones. We are talking about Apple and Samsung from the smart hub perspective not from their operating systems : ) 8 minutes ago, Cyknight said: And saying the drivers are too much money - and that C4 should bear the brunt of that (even your suggestion of a 'small fee' for premium drivers would indicate you want C4 to bear the brunt of the cost). My argument is that the prices you see are due to them being reasonable (mostly) to recoop cost in a timely manor based on the numbers they'd sell - and to pay for continuing developing not to mention supporting it. Those numbers wouldn't shift dramatically just because C4 pays for it first, then charges through for it. Understand that those free drivers you get from control4 need that same return value plus covering maintaining and supporting them - and that you DO pay for all that - via your hardware and subscriptions. Any major changes to shift all this to a non-charge from Control4 (or minimal charge from control4) would result in to an increase in prices there. This is definitely all true and one way to look at it. However; the other companies ARE doing this. So I get why C4 ISN'T doing it right now, but they are also going to fall behind if they continue to NOT do it when others are. Again, we aren't talking about Android or IOS. We are talking about every other smart hub. The argument could be made to not spend as much R and D on things like touch screens and thermostats when third part hardware is already doing it better Yes, they did this already with thermostat so I should stop mentioning it, but what about door station? What about a LOT of the gear they are doing? Maybe I shouldn't bring this up because it gets into a whole other topic. Just sticking to drivers/addons/recipes/apps, the others are providing these drivers. C4 should as well is my only point. If C4 is premium, so they charge for it, cool. Just make it reasonable. Not $150 USD on a $40 USD item. 12 minutes ago, Cyknight said: And again yes, the CAD sucks right now - on the other hand, nobody this side of the border was complaining about that hen the CAD was above par..... I ONLY brought this up because OTHER companies ARE doing this. I agree with you on this, and I don't feel it is UNFAIR because we are in Canada and have to pay more. I am not being that person. The fact is, sales are down in Canada because of it and these companies realize it. Because of this, they ARE offering special pricing to Canadians. Hell, C4 just did it themselves by finally allowing CAD payments and by changing their pricing model in CAD for north of the border. So this isn't my opinion, it is just the reality of what is occurring and Houselogix COULD follow suit if they wanted to. I am in no way saying they SHOULD. Just stating they COULD and others ARE. Keep in mind, this was a VERY small statement I made to the entire argument. Just as a fellow cannuck, you caught on to it and I think your reaction is more revolving around the common rhetoric right now in Alberta about the US dollar, and less about my very small comment no? Because I definitely do agree with you, and I don't bitch about the dollar because I know that it goes both ways and is cyclical. However; for US companies to promote sales here, a lot of them have realized they need to take a small hit to keep numbers and volume up and that is just the reality. Right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 17 minutes ago, Cyknight said: My argument is that the prices you see are due to them being reasonable (mostly) to recoop cost in a timely manor based on the numbers they'd sell - and to pay for continuing developing not to mention supporting it. Those numbers wouldn't shift dramatically just because C4 pays for it first, then charges through for it. Understand that those free drivers you get from control4 need that same return value plus covering maintaining and supporting them - and that you DO pay for all that - via your hardware and subscriptions. Any major changes to shift all this to a non-charge from Control4 (or minimal charge from control4) would result in to an increase in prices there. What about just a shift? Maybe don't do 200 drivers for Sony TV's and instead spread it out a bit more? Maybe don't focus on as much commercial gear until you have the basic consumer needs met? I dunno, I definitely don't have the answers... hence the discussion . But I do know there are usually other options. It isn't usually so black and white, it usually more about want and intention rather than can or can't. It has also been NO secret that C4 has never really been about the consumer as much as the dealer. They rely on DEALER feedback to be the best representation of the consumer needs. Well that just gets you the existing consumer's feedback. What about future customers and growth markets that are being ignored because the dealers aren't targeting the self educated automation guy? That is generally the customer the dealer doesn't want. It is generally (emphasis on the generalization) the type of guy that is a HUGE time drain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 50 minutes ago, badjesus said: What about just a shift? Maybe don't do 200 drivers for Sony TV's and instead spread it out a bit more? Maybe don't focus on as much commercial gear until you have the basic consumer needs met? I dunno, I definitely don't have the answers... hence the discussion . But I do know there are usually other options. It isn't usually so black and white, it usually more about want and intention rather than can or can't. It has also been NO secret that C4 has never really been about the consumer as much as the dealer. They rely on DEALER feedback to be the best representation of the consumer needs. Well that just gets you the existing consumer's feedback. What about future customers and growth markets that are being ignored because the dealers aren't targeting the self educated automation guy? That is generally the customer the dealer doesn't want. It is generally (emphasis on the generalization) the type of guy that is a HUGE time drain. Some people on here will defend what Control4 does no matter what. It doesn't do much for discussion and it always leads to one of them saying "maybe this system isn't right for you". It's disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 minute ago, therockhr said: Some people on here will defend what Control4 does no matter what. It doesn't do much for discussion and it always leads to one of them saying "maybe this system isn't right for you". It's disappointing. Yeah, to defend Cyknight though he isn't that guy. He is making pretty valid points, and usually does. Out of everyone on this forum, especially dealers, I respect his opinions probably the most. I can understand why they are like that, though (also to play devil's advocate again). They are dealers. This is how they feed their families. It is often taken as "We don't need you, get a new job" where that is not what we are saying at all. I couldn't agree with you more though, and I truly hate that response. "Maybe this isn't the right system for you". What is really sad, is that people said that big box couldn't sell Control4 either. "That wouldn't work" for the same reason DIY wouldn't work. Or C4 isn't an "on the shelf" option. Well, I have witnessed that become untrue and have seen the sales awards to prove it isn't true. There is room for change, and it can happen without hurting dealers. Some will adapt and prosper, some won't and they will fail. It is that fear that is stopping C4 from growing to completely dominate the automation world. They are the apple of the automation industry, but unfortunately they are apple in 1982 and not 2000 in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, badjesus said: What is really sad, is that people said that big box couldn't sell Control4 either. "That wouldn't work" for the same reason DIY wouldn't work While I disagree with that statement of 'big box' unable to do it, the reality is that I've seen two major chains here try - One is now defunct but C4 was dropped after a short interval because they couldn't figure it out - the other chain is doing an abysmal job so far. Control4 ISNT preventing that avenue at all (indeed Magnolia is still out there) - but it's not an argument just picked out of thin air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Cyknight said: While I disagree with that statement of 'big box' unable to do it, the reality is that I've seen two major chains here try - One is now defunct but C4 was dropped after a short interval because they couldn't figure it out - the other chain is doing an abysmal job so far. Control4 ISNT preventing that avenue at all (indeed Magnolia is still out there) - but it's not an argument just picked out of thin air. One of the chains up in your neck of the woods is the number one control 4 dealer in Canada That would be a PM convo though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 The 200 Sony drivers were written by Sony. Sony was an original investor in c4. So they support it. Not all manufacturers write their own drivers but nothing prevents them from... Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badjesus Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 minute ago, msgreenf said: The 200 Sony drivers were written by Sony. Sony was an original investor in c4. So they support it. Not all manufacturers write their own drivers but nothing prevents them from... Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk True enough, bad example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 38 minutes ago, badjesus said: One of the chains up in your neck of the woods is the number one control 4 dealer in Canada That would be a PM convo though. If you mean AVU - I wouldn't consider that a chain so much as a cooperation. AVU isn't a dealer - there are AVU members that are C4 dealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Obsessions Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I can't even attempt to get through this whole thread but I will say this: 1). Control4 shouldn't spend a ton of time developing a "free" driver for a competitive product such as a thermostat, when there are already quite a few options. You should buy the c4 thermostat, same with lighting. 2) The beauty of Control4, is the ability to have 3rd party developers create intelligent drivers, to me their driverworks program, is far exceeding the capabilities of any other competitor, thus allowing for the array of drivers available, and without compensation, nothing would ever be released, heck I have been using Blue Iris since 1.7.4, but I wouldn't release a free driver for it, because then people come seeking free support and free features, and my kids like to eat. 4) I challenge "neigh-sayers" to show me both a better way they could have done their project, and/or a cheaper way. I don't love everything about control4, but I will say that they are still the best option available, and they do listen to our request and give us more features all the time. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 The 200 Sony drivers are a bad example also because the 200 drivers are likely a *single* driver source file, since they run the same code. The real benefit to having 200 of them is that since those Sony TVs and devices use SDDP (which includes the model and driver information), you get the correct driver every time (with the right inputs/outputs/features) without having to search for the right driver. Making 200 drivers is not much harder than making 1, it's just a build process. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth_j Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I've been developing drivers since 1.6 and I have no idea what this post or thread is about. (Sent from Tapatalk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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