Houselogix need to be sold to C4!

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, therockhr said:

I just don't get it.

Yes, that much is clear.

[msgreenf]

Yes, that much is clear.

So my 2 cents. I am pro paid drivers but I have to say when the driver is as much as the hardware and doesn't add a ton of value I just don't see why it was made.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

[AceInfinity]

My opinion is that it's not an all or nothing game. Sure you can buy a $200 garage door system but why should that mean you get the full package for free? The garage door will still work, you just don't get all of the bells and whistles with the integration. Without motivation for third party developers to make drivers for other integrators, there would have been no EV drivers period, and it would have never been sold to Control4 because they wouldn't have existed -- it's purely business.

Think about it, you can go buy a nice new 2016 Sierra, but the cost of that truck does NOT necessarily mean that it's fully loaded. All of those extra accessories come at a cost too you know; manufacturing, time, workforce, product costs, shipping costs. Where is the incentive for them to give you all of that for free at their own expense? If you step out of your own shoes and into the shoes of those who are the distributor's, manufacturers, and anybody else who had a hand on your end-product, things might seem a bit more balanced. If you end up getting a higher model, I've seen where it can easily exceed 100% of the base model cost too.

The cost of a driver is negotiable and subjective too. Automation heavily depends on lifestyle, and not everyone's lifestyle is the same. If people use features of the system which the driver is solely responsible for, then it may seem a bit more valuable to that person. The cost of a driver also depends on how much the driver creator thinks their time is worth, and how valuable they think it is in the marketplace.

[therockhr]

38 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Yes, that much is clear.

I don't blame you for the sarcastic comment. There is nothing that can justify Crestron having a free driver and Control4 not.

[therockhr]

4 minutes ago, AceInfinity said:

My opinion is that it's not an all or nothing game. Sure you can buy a $200 garage door system but why should that mean you get the full package for free? The garage door will still work, you just don't get all of the bells and whistles with the integration. Without motivation for third party developers to make drivers for other integrators, there would have been no EV drivers period, and it would have never been sold to Control4 because they wouldn't have existed -- it's purely business.

Think about it, you can go buy a nice new 2016 Sierra, but the cost of that truck does NOT necessarily mean that it's fully loaded. All of those extra accessories come at a cost too you know; manufacturing, time, workforce, product costs, shipping costs. Where is the incentive for them to give you all of that for free at their own expense? If you step out of your own shoes and into the shoes of those who are the distributor's, manufacturers, and anybody else who had a hand on your end-product, things might seem a bit more balanced.

Yeah but the floor mats, window tinting and leather seats shouldn't cost the same as the car itself!

[AceInfinity]

9 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I don't blame you for the sarcastic comment. There is nothing that can justify Crestron having a free driver and Control4 not.

I deal with Crestron too, you also have to keep in mind that a lot of it is a cash cow. Crestron's average cost is about 10x that of Control4 as well...

At the end of the day Crestron makes such a markup on everything else that you're paying for that free stuff in other ways -- don't be fooled! DMC-T certification was about a couple thousand dollars I believe, and it was basically testing if we could terminate a Cat5 crystal, and some fiber cables.

[msgreenf]

My opinion is that it's not an all or nothing game. Sure you can buy a $200 garage door system but why should that mean you get the full package for free? The garage door will still work, you just don't get all of the bells and whistles with the integration. Without motivation for third party developers to make drivers for other integrators, there would have been no EV drivers period, and it would have never been sold to Control4 because they wouldn't have existed -- it's purely business.

Think about it, you can go buy a nice new 2016 Sierra, but the cost of that truck does NOT necessarily mean that it's fully loaded. All of those extra accessories come at a cost too you know; manufacturing, time, workforce, product costs, shipping costs. Where is the incentive for them to give you all of that for free at their own expense? If you step out of your own shoes and into the shoes of those who are the distributor's, manufacturers, and anybody else who had a hand on your end-product, things might seem a bit more balanced.

Was that feedback to my post ? I said I am pro paid drivers. But I struggle to spend more on a driver then the hardware itself. I also think it's a double edged sword. I think houselogix is pricing themselves out of selling too many of these

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[AceInfinity]

6 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Yeah but the floor mats, window tinting and leather seats shouldn't cost the same as the car itself!

In terms of that comparison, which Control4 driver and product are you referencing? I know the full Plex integration drivers are worth a hefty sum, but it does a lot more than just the fundamentals; I wouldn't call it a floor mat. I would consider it the equivalent of a new paint job and sound system, with some modified interior leather perhaps. Also, a lot of testing and bugfixes are involved with drivers -- it's usually not a one time deal -- the developer is lucky if that's the case. I've been a software developer for a while so I know how it is. Even if bugfixes are not required, perhaps new feature requests are, in addition to something external changing which broke your original "good" code. You're paying for support, and the driver essentially.

 

5 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

 

 

Was that feedback to my post ? I said I am pro paid drivers. But I struggle to spend more on a driver then the hardware itself. I also think it's a double edged sword. I think houselogix is pricing themselves out of selling too many of these

 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

 

In general to this thread, no specific member

 

Cheers!

[therockhr]

20 minutes ago, AceInfinity said:

In terms of that comparison, which Control4 driver and product are you referencing? I know the full Plex integration drivers are worth a hefty sum, but it does a lot more than just the fundamentals; I wouldn't call it a floor mat. I would consider it the equivalent of a new paint job and sound system, with some modified interior leather perhaps. Also, a lot of testing and bugfixes are involved with drivers -- it's usually not a one time deal -- the developer is lucky if that's the case. I've been a software developer for a while so I know how it is. Even if bugfixes are not required, perhaps new feature requests are, in addition to something external changing which broke your original "good" code. You're paying for support, and the driver essentially.

bottom line; $200-$250 is too much for a thermostat or irrigation system driver that other systems (Wink, Smartthings, Roomie/Simple Control and in some cases even Crestron) provide for free. I would be willing to pay for a driver but that is too much. For popular devices, like the ones mentioned, Control4 should be subsidizing these drivers. 

[AceInfinity]

32 minutes ago, therockhr said:

bottom line; $200-$250 is too much for a thermostat or irrigation system driver that other systems (Wink, Smartthings, Roomie/Simple Control and in some cases even Crestron) provide for free. I would be willing to pay for a driver but that is too much. For popular devices, like the ones mentioned, Control4 should be subsidizing these drivers. 

Again however, you have to think about this in terms of a business perspective before you draw that conclusion. For example, do you really believe that all of the 0% advertisements from phone company's are at their own expense? You are paying for that in some other way, it's a marketing tactic for the most part to make you think that you're getting a good deal so that you buy from them. Crestron itself is still 10x the cost of a Control4 system - yet in most residential cases, they do practically the same thing in a home environment. Even after the cost of the system and drivers, sure Crestron may be a bit more reliable, but the total cost is still going to dig a bigger hole in your wallet, and because lots of Control4 driver creators are 3rd party, they aren't able to easily embed and hide cost into something else with the Control4 system because they are independent from Control4.

As for the Thermostat driver too - We could be talking about a thermostat with a full built-in complex REST-ful HTTP(S) API (where you need to be able to authenticate over a network with some OAuth token, parse XML and/or JSON, among many other things), or a basic on/off and set presets kind of thing. Take a look at NEST and see how *easy* it looks: https://developer.nest.com/documentation/api-reference/overview

I think you may find yourself questioning your original opinion after reviewing that URL. There's quite a lot to it, I personally wouldn't find that to be a quick and easy task -- it would take me some time to develop the infrastructure to communicate with that API in my code, implement or integrate parser for the JSON, among other things. NEST doesn't sell the Control4 integration, they give you that API, which may change just like the API for Philips hue lighting has changed over time.

As with almost anything technical, most people that only see the high-level stuff may assume too quickly that the implementation is just as easy as the functionality of the system. In lots of cases, it's not quite that simple.

Another thing to consider is that if Control4 subsidizes this stuff, they have the burden of providing support for such drivers, which not everybody uses in their system because all systems are going to have different drivers, so to have the cost separate is in some ways a good thing; not everyone has to suffer unless Control4 just wants to eat that cost themselves. This may very well be part of the reason why systems like Crestron overall are more expensive, while they still provide drivers for free. I'm not saying Control4 will up the cost of all controllers by $200, but it is a plausible outcome to some extent and something to consider. What if Control4 took over 100 drivers? 1000? 10,000? Would they still be able to sell their controllers at a reasonable price without having to downgrade material quality and/or hardware components?

[therockhr]

19 minutes ago, AceInfinity said:

Again however, you have to think about this in terms of a business perspective before you draw that conclusion. Do you really believe that all of the 0% advertisements from phone company's are at their own expense? You are paying for that in some other way, it's a marketing tactic for the most part to make you think that you're getting a good deal so that you buy from them. Crestron itself is still 10x the cost of a Control4 system - yet in most residential cases, they do practically the same thing in a home environment. Even after the cost of the system and drivers, sure Crestron may be a bit more reliable, but the total cost is still going to dig a bigger hole in your wallet. Because lots of driver Creators are 3rd party, they aren't able to easily embed and hide cost into something else with the Control4 system because they are independent.

As for the Thermostat driver too - We could be talking about a thermostat with a full built-in complex REST-ful HTTP(S) API (where you need to be able to authenticate over a network with some OAuth token, parse XML and/or JSON, among many other things), or a basic on/off and set presets kind of thing. Take a look at NEST and see how *easy* it looks: https://developer.nest.com/documentation/api-reference/overview

I think you may find yourself questioning your original opinion after reviewing that URL. There's quite a lot to it, I personally wouldn't find that to be a quick and easy task -- it would take me some time to develop the infrastructure to communicate with that API in my code, implement or integrate parser for the JSON, among other things. NEST doesn't sell the Control4 integration, they give you that API, which may change just like the API for Philips hue lighting has changed over time.

As with almost anything technical, most people that only see the high-level stuff may assume too quickly that the implementation is just as easy as the functionality of the system. In lots of cases, it's not quite that simple.

Another thing to consider is that if Control4 subsidizes this stuff, they have the burden of providing support for such drivers, which not everybody uses in their system because all systems are going to have different drivers, so to have the cost separate is in some ways a good thing; not everyone has to suffer unless Control4 just wants to eat that cost themselves. This may very well be part of the reason why systems like Crestron overall are more expensive, while they still provide drivers for free.

Thanks for the programming lesson but I'm well aware of how an API works. 

Again, systems as cheap as Wink and as expensive as Crestron provide a free driver for Rachio. There's no excuse.

[AceInfinity]

It was not intended to be an insult, just some food for thought. "How" an API works was not what I was pointing out but rather the complexity of it. I don't think you're considering the full picture but that was the intention behind my large post.. Control4 probably provides a lot of free drivers that Wink and Crestron don't have or ones that cost a lot as well too. AFAIK Crestron's mobile app is $99 unless you have less than a ~5 page system? (I cannot remember the limit off the top of my head but programming for that amount of pages can cause things to be cluttered fairly quick.) If you have 2 people in a household that don't share the same apple id, which is not uncommon, that's already around $200 just to begin to control the system from your phone... Control4's app is free. You cannot have everything free or cheap... I also think that the IR learner device provided by Crestron is an external device that costs about $400, whereas it's built into the Control4 controller's. Crestron makes money off dealers just as well as the end-users in many ways.

edit: Here you go https://itunes.apple.com/app/crestron-mobile-pro/id329906343?mt=8  - Now should Crestron make it free because other control systems like Control4 provide a free app with no limitations?

Don't get me wrong though, I'd love for this stuff to be free or cheap too, but I know that it's just not reality.

Additionally, the last update to the Crestron app was Jun 25, 2015. Control4 more regularly provides updates to the Control4 app and it is still free. Last update for the Control4 app was Feb 01, 2016.

You need to think about the big picture to make a fair judgement. I think my argument is pretty fair.

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, therockhr said:

Yeah but the floor mats, window tinting and leather seats shouldn't cost the same as the car itself!

GMC Sierra starts at ~33000 for the 2500. Spec'd out (no including everything, not the Denali package) it's not a problem to get it to ~66000

 

3 hours ago, therockhr said:

I don't blame you for the sarcastic comment. There is nothing that can justify Crestron having a free driver and Control4 not.

 

YOU think there's nothing that can justify it. But I'd bet you don't know what the reasoning is for either side.
 IS there enough interest in it? Is there a WINK driver because a guy at Racchio has a WINK and wanted to make one. Is there a Crestron driver because a Crestron dealer had a client that wanted it done and was willing to pay for it?

 

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, msgreenf said:

So my 2 cents. I am pro paid drivers but I have to say when the driver is as much as the hardware and doesn't add a ton of value I just don't see why it was made.

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That's a different matter altogether - but whomever made (and set the price) either made a mistake - or thinks (rightly or wrongly) that it would sell.

If it doesn't, price would eventually go down...

[SMHarman]

Yeah but the floor mats, window tinting and leather seats shouldn't cost the same as the car itself!

But integrated Sat nav costs thousands and a Garmin costs hundreds and Google maps on your iPhone is free.

So Sat nav 2000. Garmin 200. Integration just cost you 1800. Both do the same job.

[Cyknight]

3 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

But integrated Sat nav costs thousands and a Garmin costs hundreds and Google maps on your iPhone is free.

So Sat nav 2000. Garmin 200. Integration just cost you 1800. Both do the same job.

And in some cases, with OnStar for example it's a hefty monthly fee.

[therockhr]

I knew I shouldn't have even tried to give in to the ridiculous comparison between Control4 and a vehicle. They are nothing alike and can not be used as any kind of example. Comparing the cost of a GPS vs a driver is silly.

My thoughts; the 4sight subscription should be mandatory for every system and should be $150 a year. This would include OS updates, driver updates, Composer HE and remote access. If you don't renew every year you are not eligible for any upgrades until you renew.

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

I knew I shouldn't have even tried to give in to the ridiculous comparison between Control4 and a vehicle. They are nothing alike and can not be used as any kind of example. Comparing the cost of a GPS vs a driver is silly.

My thoughts; the 4sight subscription should be mandatory for every system and should be $150 a year. This would include OS updates, driver updates, Composer HE and remote access. If you don't renew every year you are not eligible for any upgrades until you renew.

So C4 is paying me to update systems?

I'm not opposed to the overall idea, but what you're talking about there is a MAJOR overhaul.

And you're still talking from a position that all drivers should be 'free' and made by/bought by C4. A position that isn't a stated fact, but an opinion. One that I think would be counter productive (and yes, that's an opinion too).

[mstafford388]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

I knew I shouldn't have even tried to give in to the ridiculous comparison between Control4 and a vehicle. They are nothing alike and can not be used as any kind of example. Comparing the cost of a GPS vs a driver is silly.

My thoughts; the 4sight subscription should be mandatory for every system and should be $150 a year. This would include OS updates, driver updates, Composer HE and remote access. If you don't renew every year you are not eligible for any upgrades until you renew.

Recent trends indicate Control4 is trying to make it easier (cheaper) for people to get into an entry level C4 system.  This would completely contradict that so as I'm sure you're well aware that is a long shot to happen.  Also that puts dealers in a predicament.  Hey mr customer, 2.8.2 just came out which fixes your issue with announcements.  Sorry though, I can't upgrade you until you pay your yearly fee as well as for my time to perform the upgrade.  I just see a lot of issues with the concept.  If every customer was in a larger high end system I could see plenty of value in it though, but isn't that essentially what a service contract with your dealer is for

[cdepaola]

Pro paid drivers for sure! Agree with msgreenf though that it's difficult to justify the cost of a driver that's more then the hardware. Perfect example of this is the Ubiquiti mFi driver which by the time you buy it and pay to have it installed your at-least double the cost of an mfi outlet.

Generally I think C4 does a great job with drivers that they offer.

Of course a central App Store run by C4 would be the best option, as it brings everything to one location where dealers can easily find the drivers they need, gives smaller developers more exposure, and C4 can make some additional profit just like MS, Apples, or Androids stores make for their owners.

I could touch on the 4sight comments above but that's a different topic. Just make it auto renewable or purchasable through My.Control4.com.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cdepaola]

But integrated Sat nav costs thousands and a Garmin costs hundreds and Google maps on your iPhone is free.

So Sat nav 2000. Garmin 200. Integration just cost you 1800. Both do the same job.

And the most expensive option in this case is also generally the worst performing.

[RyanE]

On 4/6/2016 at 5:47 PM, therockhr said:

There is nothing that can justify Crestron having a free driver and Control4 not.

If you haven't noticed, Control4 and Crestron have different opinions about a *lot* of things, not just which drivers they provide for free.

I'm not speaking for Control4 when I say this, but IMHO, Control4 should focus on what Control4 does best, and concentrate *only* on the *most popular* 3rd party devices, which sometimes means that device A will get a driver developed by Control4, and device B will not, and device C will have a driver available through a 3rd-party developer, who sets their pricing on based on whatever metric they decide.

As Control4 doesn't even *have* a sprinkler proxy, and there's no native UI for sprinkler control, I personally think *that* would be a better use of Control4's time, although I don't know if it's on a roadmap, as that would be done by a different team than I'm on.

I'm not going to argue whether device A, B, or C should or should not get a 'free' (subsidized by Control4) driver, but I do think that sprinkler controllers, *even as a category* aren't the most popular automation integration, mainly because a considerable amount of the country doesn't even do residential irrigation.

RyanE

[msgreenf]

9 minutes ago, RyanE said:

I do think that sprinkler controllers, *even as a category* aren't the most popular automation integration, mainly because a considerable amount of the country doesn't even do residential irrigation.

I would agree - but it is something that I would integrate given a reasonable price....but for now the Rachio app will do! (and do it better than if it were integrated)

[jfh]

Interesting thread.

Amazed so far that no one has mentioned how few third party developers and that there doesn't seem to be a way (short of becoming a dealer) to get access to the tools required to develop a driver.   No competition = higher prices and fewer options.

[cloudy]

I am not C4 guru like you all, just want to figure out a solution for my home system.  I had my home wired for putting in a Honeywell Ademco Vista 128 system before we closed our wall during remodel.  At the same time, I was planning to put in a C4 system which hopes to have the security system integration into C4.  At this end stage, my C4 vendor did all music, thermo, garage door but has not been able to do the integration for security system.  As a result, I only have one alarm panel in my house but two other C4 panels by the doors do not control alarm.  Vendor told me that he doesn't know how to do integration but can research. It's been two weeks but no positive results.  I am not tech savy and barely understand the terminology in this forum. What advise do you have for me?  Should I start from scratch and hire another C4 vendor but where can I find him/her?  I am in LA area.  Your thoughts are welcome.