This from Control 4 in reference to having Composer Pro

[dgbrown]

So far as I know, by the client installing the Control4 equipment (dimmer, switch, etc), the Control4 warranty is invalidated. Now, if the dealer wants to let the client install their own tv or sony receiver for example, and call the dealer and have him remotely add those devices to the project based on how the client tells him it's hooked up, is entirely up to the dealer from what I have seen.

I'm assuming all C4 dealers are expected to be licensed electricians for the states they work in for that to be true, right. Otherwise that's a pretty big liability to be left with as a dealer. AKA, an unlicensed/certified tech installing high voltage electrical equipment in the wall cavity of a residence.

[jbs]

My dealer had a licensed electrician on staff, but I think frequently a third party electrician installs switches.

[joemci]

Interesting that it would void the warranty. Does that mean that all switches, dimmers, keypads, and other inwall devices needed to be electric hard-wired are installed by C4 installers? Are all C4 dealers then licensed electricians? I would think that many towns, cities, villages have codes that require hardwired electrical devices to be installed by licensed electricians. So, if a dealer subs out that work to a licensed electrician, does that void the warranty?

You certainly can see where this is going as these are the items that I can see having a warranty issue if they are installed wrong. I can't imagine a HTC being in danger of being installed incorrectly to cause it mechanical harm!

Just my thoughts!

Joe

[joemci]

dgbrown - funny, I was writing the exact same thing - although, C4 stuff isn't really high voltage, but doing it wrong could cause a lot of electrical and safety problems.

[thecodeman]

My dealer had a licensed electrician on staff, but I think frequently a third party electrician installs switches.

My first dealer had a licensed electrician on staff as well. How other dealers do it, is up to them.

[Automation1tmai]

But is the electrician a certified C4 installer?

[thecodeman]

See, a perfect example of one who prefers a closed system and would rather hire a professional installer! There are many who would no problem! Just think a choice would be a good thing for the industry.

There *are* many choices. X10, insteon, cinemar, CQC, Crestron, AMX, Control4, etc. etc. You have to decide what's right for you. If you dont like Control4's dealer/client structure, dont buy it If no one liked it, they would have changed by now or gone out of business.

[Automation1tmai]

I don't think the "if you don't like it don't buy it" is a good company position in these economic times. I do understand that is your position and not that of C4's.

[thecodeman]

I don't think the "if you don't like it don't buy it" is a good company position in these economic times. I do understand that is your position and not that of C4's.

I agree. We will have to wait and see what happens. They (control4) surely have some knowledge of the compeititon, and what they will need to do to stay afloat. I dont think that 20 people moaning and complaining about being locked out of Composer Pro is on their priority list though. Again, IMO. Would I love to have access, sure. But not having access to Pro doesnt keep me from enjoying what integration I do already have.

[Automation1tmai]

Myself included. I also have an installer who did my system. With all due respect though that's quite a speculation that the whole word consists of 20 people moaning about being locked out of Composser Pro. On the same token there may be thousands of people who can't enjoy C4 because they dont have the means to pay for a $10,000 install.

[ILoveC4]

I would venture to bet that less than 10% of people that use Control4 in there home even have interest in utilizing Composer HE. Out of those that do, I would bet most don't even use all the features HE has to provide. I would bet the overall number of Control4 clients that would be interested in purchasing Composer PRO to modify there system are minisquel at best.

[dgbrown]

Yep. Agreed, can't be so. At least as written

PS. In terms of high voltage (110V), I was making the comparison vs. low voltage (in my area the later doesn't require a licensed electrician). To you're point, dimmers, switches, etc fall into the former.

[thecodeman]

Myself included. I also have an installer who did my system. With all due respect though that's quite a speculation that the whole word consists of 20 people moaning about being locked out of Composser Pro. On the same token there may be thousands of people who can't enjoy C4 because they dont have the means to pay for a $10,000 install.

They aren't enjoying AMX or Crestron either it would seem.

[akg4y]

I think the dealers see this as the users wanting Composer Pro in order to save money and not have to pay them, which is definitely a consideration. To me, however, the main reason I want Composer Pro or at least the ability to add new *non-C4* devices is convenience. If someone was to ask me if I would recommend C4 without reservation Id say no but for one reservation: Having to call someone each and every time I buy any electronic equipment. Most people in our income ranges probably buy new toys a few times a year and enjoy being able to set it up and put it together almost as much as the device itself. Having to call someone to do it for you not only takes some of the fun out of it, but its also like having your balls cut off in front of your wife, who clearly married you to have you do all of this for her.

[thecodeman]

I can't say that I would go that far.

Buy what you want, enjoy it, play with it, then when you want to integrate it into your system, call the dealer and as long as you have 4sight it's really not that big of a deal.

[Automation1tmai]

No. Unless you are a fortunate enough to be able to toss say $30,000 to $250,000 dollars on a HA system I guess your not. I mean there will always be products out there reserved for the rich. I mean really look at Kaleidoscope. What avarage person is going to spend $50K on a media server?

[SteinyD]

Not to put words in the writer's mouth but I don't think that is what he was implying. What I took away from the suggestion is that there are dealers that might share the installation work (eg., I install the light switches) and they do the controller installation. I think they also suggested that some dealers might not insist on full MSRP since the market is a bit tighter.

Are you suggesting that Control4 dictates margins? Are you also saying that Control4 specifically says that the customer cannot install or move their own equipment - ever? If you are saying these things then I'll have the dealer pay part of my mortgage too if I need to live with them forever more!

I don't think their was implication of piracy or theft in thecodeman's message.

Dont get discouraged by these forums. There are many dealers out there that have not drank the coolaid and will work with you in any degree you want. No MSRP and DIY are definetely an option with C4. You just have to find the right dealer. Times are tough out there and some dealers DO understand their customers...

So then' date=' it's *okay* to break a written agreement, because times are tough? It's this very reason that C4 is *further restricting* composer pro with serial keys and other methods. Look at what Microsoft is having to do with Genuine Advantage program.

Hey, times are tough,I need to build another pc so I should look for Vista on torrent sites. I need to save $400.

.....what?[/quote']

[thecodeman]

No. Unless you are a fortunate enough to be able to toss say $30,000 to $250,000 dollars on a HA system I guess your not. I mean there will always be products out there reserved for the rich. I mean really look at Kaleidoscope. What avarage person is going to spend $50K on a media server?

(quietly backs up owned movies to NAS in anticipation of the EVA9150's launch)

[SteinyD]

I move and update my gadgets and gear at home all the time. If I have Control4 I have to add th additional expense of an installer each time? Why? I've never needed them to hook up my new gear before.

Look, my point continues to be that there is a model and a need for everyone. I know we of this forum aren't going to change Control4's mind about their business model. However, i think they are missing market segments that could also be their spokespeople and encourage more sales. Being the tech head I've described in this forum, do you know how many times I get asked by family, friends, friends of family and friends for suggestions and ideas of what electronic products to buy for their home? If I were satisfied with a product I will recommend it. It would be good if Control4 type companies considered a business model that would allow us to do what we are capable of. Our voices are heard beyond the confines of our walls. There is more to our concerns and wishes then the '20' of us in these forums. I'm sure many of you are like me in providing help to family and friends and associates.

Well how about this parallel. How do you think you would do if every part of a C4 install you quoted (Sony DVD' date=' router, media player, ethernet cable, xbox, speakers, TV, reciever, etc.......) required you to hire an installer?[/quote']

After the initial install? I would make sure that it's really what I wanted to do, and then call the dealer. Maybe try to do it a "phase" at a time to get multiple things done at once. It is what it is. If I dont like it I can go back to CQC or just not integrate it with control4. I want to add more lights to my project, but I havent, because I dont want to do it one at a time. I want to save up for all my lights, and then have them installed all at once. Plus it's easier to keep track of the warranty that way. Thats just my opinion though. My wife is actually glad its this way, so that I'm not breaking the system all the time jacking with it

[thecodeman]

Not to put words in the writer's mouth but I don't think that is what he was implying. What I took away from the suggestion is that there are dealers that might share the installation work (eg., I install the light switches) and they do the controller installation.

There are. My first dealer was one of those.

I think they also suggested that some dealers might not insist on full MSRP since the market is a bit tighter.

Most dont, my current dealer gives away a free dimmer with the initial purchase of an HC-300 for example. Or I'm sure that if you were nice and wrote a big enough check that there could be a deal on labor or something to that effect, which brings me to:

Are you suggesting that Control4 dictates margins?

No, companies cannot do that, there can be a minimum advertised price, and a suggested retail price. I used to work e-commerce so I know that while you cant tell people what to sell things at, you have some options to protect your brand.

Are you also saying that Control4 specifically says that the customer cannot install or move their own equipment - ever? If you are saying these things then I'll have the dealer pay part of my mortgage too if I need to live with them forever more!

I dont speak for Control4, I have not heard anything from them that specifically says the customer cannot move their own equipment but it has been said that the warranty is only good when c4 equipment is installed by a c4 dealer/technician/etc. As is true with many things, if you do it yourself, you risk voiding the warranty.

I don't think their was implication of piracy or theft in thecodeman's message.

There wasn't in mine, but to say that some dealers "havent drank the coolaid" and will work with you "in any degree" would lend me to beleive that if you want it bad enough, look for someone who is looking to violate their dealer contract with control4 and give you a copy of composer pro. That if they needed the sales bad enough they would do so.

[thecodeman]

I move and update my gadgets and gear at home all the time. If I have Control4 I have to add th additional expense of an installer each time? Why? I've never needed them to hook up my new gear before.

Look, my point continues to be that there is a model and a need for everyone. I know we of this forum aren't going to change Control4's mind about their business model. However, i think they are missing market segments that could also be their spokespeople and encourage more sales. Being the tech head I've described in this forum, do you know how many times I get asked by family, friends, friends of family and friends for suggestions and ideas of what electronic products to buy for their home? If I were satisfied with a product I will recommend it. It would be good if Control4 type companies considered a business model that would allow us to do what we are capable of. Our voices are heard beyond the confines of our walls. There is more to our concerns and wishes then the '20' of us in these forums. I'm sure many of you are like me in providing help to family and friends and associates.

I agree. however it is disappointing every few weeks to come to this forum and have to beat the dead horse about

"ZOMG C4 would be Super Cool if I had composer pro! Can anyone hook me up?"

"No Pro is for dealers only"

"Man that sucks! I hate C4"

"Yeah, Im an enthusiast and I agree, I want full control"

""look elsewhere for full control over your automation project, as it's not part of c4's strategy at this time"

"You dont understand my needs!"

and etc.

[montekay]

Again, sorry for the ramble. I'm just very disappointed in what I've read here and will rethink my choices.

David

I agree with you SteinyD but we will never convince C4 to change their target market. To get what we want we pretty much have to build it ourselves.

Basically there are three markets. The High-end market which is probably less than 1% of the market. They want the installer to set it up and come out and modify it if needed. Then there is the DIY market which is also high-end but a fraction of the size of the primary high-end market. This is where you and I are SteinyD. Finally there is the mass market. That's the market that must be targeted if automation is to ever, "take off". That market will reject the idea of professional installers far faster than the DIY market. If home automation is to ever really take off it's going to require a "Bose" marketing plan. No installers, easy for the end user to install, operate and adapt to changing situations etc. Apparently that's not C4's goal. Perhaps they are trying to create a "mid-fi" market for automation to increase the possible market share to perhaps 2 or 3%. Neither the mass market products of the future that will control 95% of the market or Control4's mid-level products satisfy our DIY needs.

I think what makes it so frustrating for us is the fact that the C4 would be perfect if not for the self induced limitations with the software. There is the product we need right in front of us but we can't have it. I suggest we both let go, let C4 go their chosen way and we look for other solutions. I personally don't think it's going to be that difficult to just make my own. You don't have to build everything, you can base it on existing universal remotes and just make your own interface. Most of that can even be built around existing generic products. So, as entertaining as this thread has become, I say let's let them do their thing and let's go do ours.

mk

[jbs]

Look, my point continues to be that there is a model and a need for everyone. I know we of this forum aren't going to change Control4's mind about their business model. However, i think they are missing market segments that could also be their spokespeople and encourage more sales. Being the tech head I've described in this forum, do you know how many times I get asked by family, friends, friends of family and friends for suggestions and ideas of what electronic products to buy for their home? If I were satisfied with a product I will recommend it. It would be good if Control4 type companies considered a business model that would allow us to do what we are capable of. Our voices are heard beyond the confines of our walls. There is more to our concerns and wishes then the '20' of us in these forums. I'm sure many of you are like me in providing help to family and friends and associates.

And the vast majority of those friends and family asking you would not fall into the same category as the few who want C4 to be DIY. So if they're the type (like most of the market) who want someone to set it up for them and would be afraid to mess with it themselves for fear of screwing it all up, then it seems like you could give them a strong endorsement. Not endorsing something that would work well for their needs just because it doesn't meet all *your* needs would be dishonest.

Incidentally, this question has been getting debated for a long time. I've tried to get some interest generated in an idea for a "super-user" category which would do everything you're asking for, but would also protect C4 from the brand risk of just giving everyone the keys to the castle. If people are interested, voice your support here:

http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=2966

--Jason

[jbs]

I agree with you SteinyD but we will never convince C4 to change their target market. To get what we want we pretty much have to build it ourselves.

Basically there are three markets. The High-end market which is probably less than 1% of the market. They want the installer to set it up and come out and modify it if needed. Then there is the DIY market which is also high-end but a fraction of the size of the primary high-end market. This is where you and I are SteinyD. Finally there is the mass market. That's the market that must be targeted if automation is to ever, "take off". That market will reject the idea of professional installers far faster than the DIY market. If home automation is to ever really take off it's going to require a "Bose" marketing plan. No installers, easy for the end user to install, operate and adapt to changing situations etc. Apparently that's not C4's goal. Perhaps they are trying to create a "mid-fi" market for automation to increase the possible market share to perhaps 2 or 3%. Neither the mass market products of the future that will control 95% of the market or Control4's mid-level products satisfy our DIY needs.

mk

I'm not sure if you're referring to the entirety of the marketplace (like all homeowners) or percentages of the home automation market (a much smaller number obviously). Again, take yourself out of your own shoes and put yourself in the shoes of someone who:

1.) Owns a nice house

2.) Uses the internet occasionally

3.) Likes that email thing, but it's confusing sometimes

4.) Really likes listenting to their CD collection, and has been wanting to look into that MP3 thing . . .

Seriously, you may laugh, but this is the mass market. People are not nearly as technically savvy as you might imagine, so saying that the bulk of the home automation market would reject a dealer-installed solution in favor of plugging things in and hooking them up themselves ignores the reality of the marketplace.

My in-laws bought one of those Bose entertainment systems. They can't get it to work right (they live far away so I've not been there since they got it). When we visit, I'll bring my box of cables, zip ties, wires, strippers, crimps, etc etc etc, and I'm sure it will be working fine when I'm done. But in the meantime what they needed was a dealer or some other professional to come set it up. We all think this stuff is easy cause we do it a lot. But ask your Mom whether she prefers HDMI or Component for her video sources, or whether her favorite programs is broadcast in 720 or 1080, and if she's like my Mom she'd just smile, nod, and ask me how her granddaughters are doing.

--Jason

[SteinyD]

NONE of my friends or family are techies by any stretch. They all would benefit from an installer's help. However, because this product doesn't offer a business model that allows people like you or I to install it for ourselves I cannot endorse the product because I haven't used it myself.

Look' date=' my point continues to be that there is a model and a need for everyone. I know we of this forum aren't going to change Control4's mind about their business model. However, i think they are missing market segments that could also be their spokespeople and encourage more sales. Being the tech head I've described in this forum, do you know how many times I get asked by family, friends, friends of family and friends for suggestions and ideas of what electronic products to buy for their home? If I were satisfied with a product I will recommend it. It would be good if Control4 type companies considered a business model that would allow us to do what we are capable of. Our voices are heard beyond the confines of our walls. There is more to our concerns and wishes then the '20' of us in these forums. I'm sure many of you are like me in providing help to family and friends and associates.[/quote']

And the vast majority of those friends and family asking you would not fall into the same category as the few who want C4 to be DIY. So if they're the type (like most of the market) who want someone to set it up for them and would be afraid to mess with it themselves for fear of screwing it all up, then it seems like you could give them a strong endorsement. Not endorsing something that would work well for their needs just because it doesn't meet all *your* needs would be dishonest.

Incidentally, this question has been getting debated for a long time. I've tried to get some interest generated in an idea for a "super-user" category which would do everything you're asking for, but would also protect C4 from the brand risk of just giving everyone the keys to the castle. If people are interested, voice your support here:

http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=2966

--Jason