This from Control 4 in reference to having Composer Pro

[Mav-Jason]

I also see your point. Interesting debate.

Look at it from C4's pov though. They gave the end user 'some' control over the product (a lot actually), which virtually NO other home automation company does. And now they want more, they want to be able to do it ALL.

Is this a good idea? From a business model's standpoint, I say no.

[joed]

I also see your point. Interesting debate.

Look at it from C4's pov though. They gave the end user 'some' control over the product (a lot actually), which virtually NO other home automation company does. And now they want more, they want to be able to do it ALL.

Is this a good idea? From a business model's standpoint, I say no.

Ahh the old "no one else is doing it" argument. As home automation becomes more mainstream and integrated into every AV component you purchase this market will have to become more consumer friendly.

- Joe

[Mav-Jason]

Okay Mr. Jetson.

[joed]

Here let me quote myself for ya...

"WITHOUT BUSTED KNUCKLES" (<<< which I think is a GREAT analogy)

Thank ya. But i can't find the GUI to replace my car engine. At worst I will be carpel-tunnel with control4.

"I'm not saying this can't be done, I just think it's a bad idea for C4 in the long run."

But even in your example, Honda is not stopping me from trying. I think not reaching out to the consumer is a horrible idea in the long run. Artificially restricting your marketplace is ok when you are just starting out, but is not a LONG TERM business model.

[joed]

Okay Mr. Jetson.

Pretending that it isn't happening isn't a good business model either.

Wasn't there a LG TV with integrated control4 os shown at CES? Isn't Control4 trying to become the OS for home automation? Wait...CES....Consumer Electronics Show? What is Control4 doing there?

[SteinyD]

... and you just hit the nail on the head. This isn't going to stay this way forever as much as companies like C4 and their installers would like it to. This has to go mainstream at some point. The industry is desperate for it to go mainstream. Why shouldn't I be able to buy this type of product off a shelf and choose to have someone install it for me or install it for myself?! Again I say, it is all about choice. I can choose to install it myself, I can choose to screw it up myself, I can choose to have an installer do it for me. The problem with this industry at the moment as those choices don't exist.

As I've read more this week and spoken to the installer I'm likely to utilize, I've realized that C4 does have some of the more liberal consumer controls. The installer made me feel more comfortable for what he will do versus what I can do versus what he will allow me to do (all within the guidelines of his authorized dealer agreement). It is that flexible installer mentality that will encourage me to move forward with C4 and the hope that some day they will change their business model.

I am not though, looking forward to the day I receive a new piece of gear on a Friday night and have to wait until the installer is available sometime the next week to add the piece of gear to my system. That shouldn't have to be that way.

I also see your point. Interesting debate.

Look at it from C4's pov though. They gave the end user 'some' control over the product (a lot actually)' date=' which virtually NO other home automation company does. And now they want more, they want to be able to do it ALL.

Is this a good idea? From a business model's standpoint, I say no.[/quote']

Ahh the old "no one else is doing it" argument. As home automation becomes more mainstream and integrated into every AV component you purchase this market will have to become more consumer friendly.

- Joe

[Mav-Jason]

Taken from here... http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=2696

Ok...I'm an idiot.

Agreed

The issue was the MC was at 1.7 and Composer was 1.6.

You've made my point for me. Version is the first thing you check. You can't even use HE and you want Pro?

LMAO!

Edit to say:

You are the exact type of client I would walk away from and send to Ultimate. I feel sorry for your dealer. Good luck.

[joed]

I fail to see how that post helps move the conversation forward. But if it made you feel better than good.

You don't like the argument so you insult the writer? nice.

[joed]

You've made my point for me. Version is the first thing you check. You can't even use HE and you want Pro?

What that post showed me is that you pointed out an end user who figured it out by himself. i think it makes DYI'ers look good.

[Mav-Jason]

EPIC FAIL... you figured out that you are an idiot (wtg, I'm sure that was a well deserved eye opener)... that makes DIY'ers look bad IMHO.

You are turning the tides against yourself, and others, that wish to see this become a reality. You should just stop posting. LOL!

[SteinyD]

Mav-Jaosn / jdorman - please don't take this thread in the direction you're going. No one will interact with this sort of dialogue.

[joed]

Mav-Jaosn / jdorman - please don't take this thread in the direction you're going. No one will interact with this sort of dialogue.

I agree. Not sure how Mav-Jason's comments are meant to move the conversation forward.

[pablor]

I also see your point. Interesting debate.

Look at it from C4's pov though. They gave the end user 'some' control over the product (a lot actually), which virtually NO other home automation company does. And now they want more, they want to be able to do it ALL.

Is this a good idea? From a business model's standpoint, I say no.

WRONG! there are tons of companies out there offering 100% control. There are a handful that dont, C4 included! The only difference is that the other companies where so expensive that only the rich could afford them. C4 brought the entry point to a much more maneageable level thus inviting people that are a lot more hands on. on the PC world virtually every company that does HA assumes a level of user involvement

[Mav-Jason]

Let me speak officially from Control4.

We DO NOT support or advocate end users having or using Composer Pro!

The software is copyright protected and our dealers are prohibited, as per their Dealer Agreement, from distributing the software to customers.

Control4 DOES NOT distribute Composer Pro to end users.

We do investigate all reports of internet sales and violations of Composer Pro distribution. In fact, we have terminated dealers in this past year for these types of violations. We are concerned about protecting our valued Dealers.

In a future version of Composer Pro we will be encrypting and protecting the software from open distribution.

As always, if you are aware of activity (internet sales / Composer Pro distribution) that violates our Dealer Agreement, please contact me directly (contact information below) to report the violation. We will treat your report anonymously and with sensitivity.

Looks like a statement to me. What discussion? And where was this supposed to go?

I was simply dropping my opinion when the idiot jumped in.

[Mav-Jason]

Idiot(s), I see.

Ok I'm done here buh bye.

[dgbrown]

Seems the question at large is not if the ha market moves in this direction, but when and who will get the first mover advantage ? Anybody see linksys products in just about every consumer electronics store ? Geez the average home owner knows nothing about IP networking, NAT, DHCP, WAP,, firewalls and the like .... or the engineering and technical network design considerations. Anyone care to venture a guess at the market penetration, size of market, or why cisco bought them ?

[SteinyD]

Did I miss something? Was someone in this thread advocating the illegal use of software or were most (if not all) advocating their point of view on how much control they should have of equipment in their home, with wishes that C4 would change their business model thereby allowing the use of Composer Pro?

I for one never advocated any such practice. Only my interest in persuing a discussion of CHOICE and flexibility in owner control.

Let me speak officially from Control4.

We DO NOT support or advocate end users having or using Composer Pro!

The software is copyright protected and our dealers are prohibited' date=' as per their Dealer Agreement, from distributing the software to customers.

Control4 DOES NOT distribute Composer Pro to end users.

We do investigate all reports of internet sales and violations of Composer Pro distribution. In fact, we have terminated dealers in this past year for these types of violations. We are concerned about protecting our valued Dealers.

In a future version of Composer Pro we will be encrypting and protecting the software from open distribution.

As always, if you are aware of activity (internet sales / Composer Pro distribution) that violates our Dealer Agreement, please contact me directly (contact information below) to report the violation. We will treat your report anonymously and with sensitivity.[/quote']

Looks like a statement to me. What discussion? And where was this supposed to go?

I was simply dropping my opinion when the idiot jumped in.

[SteinyD]

Agreed. But I don't think to get this to the masses we need 'consumer grade' products alone. I for one would be sad to see 'entry' level products only that give us the sort of control I'm discussing here. I think in any instance the average consumer needs help with their IT decisions and use. I think that is marketed horribly. I think the brick and mortor stores do themselves an injustice by having ilinformed and uneducated employees roaming their stores.

But I don't think we need to 'dumb' down the offerings in order to have choice of control. Yes, probably need to have some simplistic solutions but I think when we get there for things such as home controls we will lose the value and benefits.

Seems the question at large is not if the ha market moves in this direction, but when and who will get the first mover advantage ? Anybody see linksys products in just about every consumer electronics store ? Geez the average home owner knows nothing about IP networking, NAT, DHCP, WAP,, firewalls and the like .... or the engineering and technical network design considerations. Anyone care to venture a guess at the market penetration, size of market, or why cisco bought them ?

[dgbrown]

Agreed. But I don't think to get this to the masses we need 'consumer grade' products alone. I for one would be sad to see 'entry' level products only that give us the sort of control I'm discussing here. I think in any instance the average consumer needs help with their IT decisions and use. I think that is marketed horribly. I think the brick and mortor stores do themselves an injustice by having ilinformed and uneducated employees roaming their stores.

But I don't think we need to 'dumb' down the offerings in order to have choice of control. Yes, probably need to have some simplistic solutions but I think when we get there for things such as home controls we will lose the value and benefits.

Seems the question at large is not if the ha market moves in this direction, but when and who will get the first mover advantage ? Anybody see linksys products in just about every consumer electronics store ? Geez the average home owner knows nothing about IP networking, NAT, DHCP, WAP,, firewalls and the like .... or the engineering and technical network design considerations. Anyone care to venture a guess at the market penetration, size of market, or why cisco bought them ?

Steiny ... I'll be short here ... we're in violent agreement ! /Dave

[neil12011]

Since this is kind of a dead horse thread, I'll say this for end users.

It's not a question of whether or not end user are capable of a full C4 installation. I'm sure alot of you are, some aspects of composer are easy, others not. And trust me, I've been in your shoes before. The first company I worked with let alot of people go. The certification stays with the DEALER not the installer. So basically, I was a fully trained certified installer who could not obtain pro!! Control4 has made their policy clear, it is a dealer installed product. I had two choices, find another dealer to work for/with, or basically become a glorified end user. I chose the first. Having worked with AMX and Crestron, I can tell you that Composer HE is the "mainstream". It allows massive customization for the end user. It only restricts adding components and programming loops. I rarely use loops as they can cause alot of damage. I think Control4 has done a great job of giving alot of flexibility to it's customers, way more than the other big boy automation co.'s in terms of user customization. Alot of us that are dealers are more than happy to remotely add a device at minimal or no charge. This also helps us keep track of your ever growing project. So I really don't see what the big deal is.... I'm not going to charge someone who wants to change their dvd connections from component to hdmi. And as far as the product going straight to shelves in your local big box, I doubt it. From what C4 tells us, it is going MORE so to dealer only. Look guys, there alot of us who love this product. We have it in our own homes and love tinkering with it. Find one of us who are as into this as you are and I assure you that your experience will be good. I know how it is to have that new piece, and getting squirrely having to wait for your dealer. Call us up and we'll set it up into the project if you feel like you can make the physical connnections. Happens all the time, you're happy, and we're happy to help. I think with a good dealer, the gaps between pro and HE are nil at best. For alot of us, we are here to help you with your system, not to bleed your wallet. Thanks,

Neil Blasingame

Garrison Home Theater

neil_blasingame@yahoo.com

[joed]

I think the reason that this topic keeps coming up is because this is one of the two forums for end users to voice their complaints. I hope this comes up more often so Control4 can see what kind of desire there is for product to go more mainstream.

Does this forum support polls? Maybe a poll where end users can vote if they are happy or not with their level of access to their system is in order. (Dealers shouldn't be allowed to vote )

[neil12011]

I'm sure it's possible. I'll ask you, the only thing you can't do is add equipment and programming loops... Are you really that disatisfied because of those two things?

[joed]

I'm sure it's possible. I'll ask you, the only thing you can't do is add equipment and programming loops... Are you really that disatisfied because of those two things?

I think all end users would like to be able to add devices. Show me one who doesn't want that ability.

[akg4y]

Non-C4 devices, at least.

[RyanE]

There *certainly are* end users who don't care about adding their own devices. They just don't frequent web forums about home automation. I'll show you one if you want to come over to my parents' house.

I understand your issues and concerns, but don't agree with all of the assessments of Control4's motives that have been made on this thread. Control4 was specifically created to, and has always been driven toward bringing Home Automation to the masses. I suspect Control4 will continue with that mission.

Whether it ever takes the form of allowing end users to do any more with their systems than HE or not, I couldn't even begin to guess.

I think a big issue from quite a few Control4 dealers is that if they're responsible for ensuring the system works 'that 100%' that end users want, they're going to want to install the equipment. They do excellent installations, and are proud of them, from the wire up. Yes, they even want to install when you've bought your new toy that you can't wait to get added. If I were a dealer, and was offering a full warranty on the installation, the *last* thing I would want is an end user who wants to put in their own equipment, even adding little things. Of course, this would have to be tempered for those end users who are more capable, and want to handle more of their own installation.

One of the reasons (and probably the main reason) Control4 is as successful as it has been so far is because of their very loyal dealer base. Control4 needs to support that dealer base to provide the income that Control4 can then use to grow the business and make the innovations you would want in an automation product line. It takes a lot of financial 'momentum' to launch such an enterprise. To build that momentum, you need to support your dealer base. The ability to restrict end users from adding devices except through the dealers is a very important issue to most dealers, and like Neil said, not necessarily for dealers to 'bleed you dry' a bit at a time (although I'm sure there are some...), but so they can have enough control over the system to *ensure* that it's 100% reliable.

A lot of dealers were very concerned when Control4 introduced ComposerHE, although a lot of others were very relieved that they now have a solution that works very well for nearly all of their end users who want to tweak their systems. I personally think that the line drawn by Control4 with ComposerHE was a very good solution to those concerns. Good Dealers *do* want to have continuing contact with their customers. They want to continue to serve those customers, even if it's just remotely adding devices, because that relationship can produce additional business, family, neighbors and friends, etc.

I sincerely wish you all the best of luck with your automation plans, and hope that Control4 can fulfill your needs regardless of the issues you have with Control4's current business model.

RyanE