This from Control 4 in reference to having Composer Pro

[jbs]

NONE of my friends or family are techies by any stretch. They all would benefit from an installer's help. However, because this product doesn't offer a business model that allows people like you or I to install it for ourselves I cannot endorse the product because I haven't used it myself.

Fair enough. I was under the impression that you'd used the product, liked it, but wanted the DIY route and that the lack of such a route would keep you from endorsing it to someone who did not want that option.

Hey, I understand completely where you're coming from, and I share the desire myself (thus the other thread). Open source makes a lot of sense in a lot of areas, but the fact of the matter is 99% of all home computer users today are probably not using any open source software. They're using their IE, the MS Office and their McAfee security and they're happy with the standardization.

And while I enjoy the tinkering and the techie part of it tremendously, I can also report constant delight with the experience I've had with Control4. I program on it constantly with Composer HE and compared with the other options on the market it worked best for me.

Whatever you choose I hope it works great for your needs.

--Jason

[lippavisual]

NONE of my friends or family are techies by any stretch. They all would benefit from an installer's help. However, because this product doesn't offer a business model that allows people like you or I to install it for ourselves I cannot endorse the product because I haven't used it myself.

This is exactly the situation why Pro is locked down to dealers only. Let's just say, for example, you did have Pro, you would endorse C4 to all of your friends and family because you "used" it yourself, they go out and get quotes or buy from ebay based on what they want. Dealer sends quote back to them with all equip., installation and programming included.

Your friends and family balk at the cost and tell dealer "Well we have a friend/family member who will program the system for us, so you can exclude the programming and redo the quote".

Dealers of C4 are RESPONSIBLE for the installation and programming of a system. It is in our dealer agreement.

[akg4y]

Seems like a good way around that would be to make installation of C4 products by dealer only, but still allow the users flexibility to add non-C4 hardware on their own. That prevents Ebay purchases etc (dealers can just refuse to add those, or charge a higher installation cost) and prevents powerusers from setting up entire systems for people. I think most of us just want the convenience to swap out a dvd player or TV without having to wait on someone else or call someone else.

[SteinyD]

... and you continue to respond as a dealer. To be honest, I can't blame you. You are defending your lively hood. Good chance I would do the same if I had a proprietary product to offer and was afraid it would end up in Best Buy one day.

But you know what. Most people shopping in Best Buy have no clue what to do with what they are buying once they get it home. But guess what also. They have choices. They can attempt the install themselves or they can call a pro. The industry (Home Automation) does not generally afford the consumer choice. The industry continues to want to convince the consumer that this is completely proprietary and we are completely incapable of even considering how I wish to manage this product I am buying to OWN in my OWN HOME. And, because it is controlled as such and the dealer channel is closely managed many of the dealers insist on selling the product at MSRP, charging ridiculous money to plug it in and then more money to make it work. So, I say - there has to be a happy balance here. Why shouldn't the dealer afford the consumer flexibility. If I'm capable of plugging it in, let me. Don't make me have to call you each and every time I move, add change a component in my home system. I buy an ipod and want to bring it home to incorporate with my automation system. I have to call you first? To ask permission? Can I send you part of my mortgage bill too?

You, as a trained dealer would certainly not call another dealer to install the product in YOUR home. Why? because you have the ability to do it yourself. Why shouldn't you have to pay the manufacturer or distributor to do it for you? Just because you are authorized why should you have the ability to install the product for yourself? We can't.

You've forgotten what it is to be a knowledgeable consumer. Lucky for this industry and technology in general a majority of the public is not as knowledgable and will depend on your services. I promise you would be able to sell more product if it were more affordable, allowed the consumer to do what they can and allow you to charge to fix what they break - a revenue opportunity.

NONE of my friends or family are techies by any stretch. They all would benefit from an installer's help. However' date=' because this product doesn't offer a business model that allows people like you or I to install it for ourselves I cannot endorse the product because I haven't used it myself.[/quote']

This is exactly the situation why Pro is locked down to dealers only. Let's just say, for example, you did have Pro, you would endorse C4 to all of your friends and family because you "used" it yourself, they go out and get quotes or buy from ebay based on what they want. Dealer sends quote back to them with all equip., installation and programming included.

Your friends and family balk at the cost and tell dealer "Well we have a friend/family member who will program the system for us, so you can exclude the programming and redo the quote".

Dealers of C4 are RESPONSIBLE for the installation and programming of a system. It is in our dealer agreement.

[SteinyD]

Sorry, I might have misinterpreted what I was responding to. I'm not advocating open source. I'm advocating choice for those that can support themselves. We don't have the choice from a vast majority of the home automation market.

I want to purchase a robust platform thus have not and won't consider Insteon, etc. Control4 is really what I've wanted. I just have been put off by reading this thread and the argument. It sounds like Control4 has taken an additional step beyond the likes of Crestron but still holds the key to MY kingdom! Until they pay my mortgage I and only I can hold the key!

NONE of my friends or family are techies by any stretch. They all would benefit from an installer's help. However' date=' because this product doesn't offer a business model that allows people like you or I to install it for ourselves I cannot endorse the product because I haven't used it myself.[/quote']

Fair enough. I was under the impression that you'd used the product, liked it, but wanted the DIY route and that the lack of such a route would keep you from endorsing it to someone who did not want that option.

Hey, I understand completely where you're coming from, and I share the desire myself (thus the other thread). Open source makes a lot of sense in a lot of areas, but the fact of the matter is 99% of all home computer users today are probably not using any open source software. They're using their IE, the MS Office and their McAfee security and they're happy with the standardization.

And while I enjoy the tinkering and the techie part of it tremendously, I can also report constant delight with the experience I've had with Control4. I program on it constantly with Composer HE and compared with the other options on the market it worked best for me.

Whatever you choose I hope it works great for your needs.

--Jason

[ILoveC4]

Sorry, I might have misinterpreted what I was responding to. I'm not advocating open source. I'm advocating choice for those that can support themselves. We don't have the choice from a vast majority of the home automation market.

I want to purchase a robust platform thus have not and won't consider Insteon, etc. Control4 is really what I've wanted. I just have been put off by reading this thread and the argument. It sounds like Control4 has taken an additional step beyond the likes of Crestron but still holds the key to MY kingdom! Until they pay my mortgage I and only I can hold the key!

NONE of my friends or family are techies by any stretch. They all would benefit from an installer's help. However' date=' because this product doesn't offer a business model that allows people like you or I to install it for ourselves I cannot endorse the product because I haven't used it myself.[/quote']

Fair enough. I was under the impression that you'd used the product, liked it, but wanted the DIY route and that the lack of such a route would keep you from endorsing it to someone who did not want that option.

Hey, I understand completely where you're coming from, and I share the desire myself (thus the other thread). Open source makes a lot of sense in a lot of areas, but the fact of the matter is 99% of all home computer users today are probably not using any open source software. They're using their IE, the MS Office and their McAfee security and they're happy with the standardization.

And while I enjoy the tinkering and the techie part of it tremendously, I can also report constant delight with the experience I've had with Control4. I program on it constantly with Composer HE and compared with the other options on the market it worked best for me.

Whatever you choose I hope it works great for your needs.

--Jason

Figure out what you want, and start calling dealers stating you will purchase all the hardware, and outline what you will pay them to do, and demand the software if you want it that bad. Just start calling dealers and say I will buy all this and pay for this but you MUST give me this. There are people out there that will do it because they are hungry. Quit whining about it on here and just make it happen. There are people that talk about it, and people that do it. Get it done and quit whining.

Now - to keep the peace let me say I do not advocate this, and I personally didn't do this because I didn't need/want to. I'm just sick of reading the same thing over and over. Just make it happen. I can assure it is possible, people on here have done it.

[TheOracle]

Having been in the software business for the better part of 35 years, I fully understand licensing issues. I've worked for the some of the largest software companies and have watched a number of methods go into preventing software proliferation. To the point, none of the work 100% effectively. Software serial numbers are available through a number of methods. I remember seeing someone passing out the master code to Windows 2000 as well as IBMs operating system. I've seen on the internet various Oracle codes, etc.

Once Control4 starts this, it will only be a matter of time before the unlock codes get to the internet. These codes are only to keep track of who is licensed and keeps the honest people honest.

I personally do not use unlicensed software and never will. I have used free software and even licensed software where the license is transferred. This is just something I believe should be more open. My one complaint about C4 is that I add a Blu-Ray DVD for $300 and it costs me another $200 to have the dealer come out and install it. That's a huge add on percentage and one of the reasons I don't have that Blu-Ray.

[lippavisual]

... and you continue to respond as a dealer. To be honest, I can't blame you. You are defending your lively hood. Good chance I would do the same if I had a proprietary product to offer and was afraid it would end up in Best Buy one day.

But you know what. Most people shopping in Best Buy have no clue what to do with what they are buying once they get it home. But guess what also. They have choices. They can attempt the install themselves or they can call a pro. The industry (Home Automation) does not generally afford the consumer choice. The industry continues to want to convince the consumer that this is completely proprietary and we are completely incapable of even considering how I wish to manage this product I am buying to OWN in my OWN HOME. And, because it is controlled as such and the dealer channel is closely managed many of the dealers insist on selling the product at MSRP, charging ridiculous money to plug it in and then more money to make it work. So, I say - there has to be a happy balance here. Why shouldn't the dealer afford the consumer flexibility. If I'm capable of plugging it in, let me. Don't make me have to call you each and every time I move, add change a component in my home system. I buy an ipod and want to bring it home to incorporate with my automation system. I have to call you first? To ask permission? Can I send you part of my mortgage bill too?

You, as a trained dealer would certainly not call another dealer to install the product in YOUR home. Why? because you have the ability to do it yourself. Why shouldn't you have to pay the manufacturer or distributor to do it for you? Just because you are authorized why should you have the ability to install the product for yourself? We can't.

You've forgotten what it is to be a knowledgeable consumer. Lucky for this industry and technology in general a majority of the public is not as knowledgable and will depend on your services. I promise you would be able to sell more product if it were more affordable, allowed the consumer to do what they can and allow you to charge to fix what they break - a revenue opportunity.

No one in this thread has ever said you are incapable of programming the system. That is completely irrelevant. I always charge MSRP on my equipment and never discount. Why? A few reasons a) its in my dealer agreement charging less will do no good to this industry c) and my biggest reason is because if a product fails, then I have to go onsite, remove said piece and replace it on my time not yours. Paying full price gets you the service that is expected from my company.

You need to look at us dealers as a friendly relationship. If my clients have questions about some hardware, or how to program something using HE, they call me for assistance. I explain to them things they should do or not and guess what, I DON'T CHARGE THEM. It makes things a lot easier if there is a respectful relationship between us and you.

Of course I wouldn't call a dealer to do something in my home because I am one. I have put MY TIME, MONEY and EFFORT growing with the problems and changes from C4 since 05'-06'. So I think that this analogy is a mute one.

Being a dealer has absolutely nothing to do with my consumer thinking. I buy things everyday and understand it if things are available to me or not. If I was a consumer looking at C4 and wanted the full control and realized they didn't offer that, I would move on to something that would fit my needs and wouldn't bitch about it on some public forum. This is getting you absolutely no where.

[lippavisual]

My one complaint about C4 is that I add a Blu-Ray DVD for $300 and it costs me another $200 to have the dealer come out and install it. That's a huge add on percentage and one of the reasons I don't have that Blu-Ray.

Thats the great thing about 4 Sight. You are able to utilize a dealer that is not from your area who would charge less for this. $200 definitely sounds like a rip off to me, especially if you have hooked everything up properly and the dealer just needs to change the driver.

You could always post on these forums, "Need Bluray driver installed, here's the connections to my system" and let us fight over who does it for you.

[ruckus]

You could always post on these forums, "Need Bluray driver installed, here's the connections to my system" and let us fight over who does it for you.

I tired this last week when I wanted some remotes that I purchased off e-bay added to my system. It didn't work. The only person who responded basically said they buy used equipment and resell it to save customers money, but that it was not okay for me to buy a used remote and then ask/pay a dealer to install it on my system. I don't understand how it is okay for them to go out buy used equipment and the resell it but not okay for the end user to buy used equipment and then pay a dealer to install it. My guess is the answer has something to do with pretesting the used equipment to verify it is in working order, but I never expected anyone besides myself to be responsible for that. I can't imagine C4 has a policy as to who is able to buy, resell or install used equipment. I just wanted to pay a dealer to do something simple that dealers are supposed to do. Like I said in the post I am referring to it's situations like this that make people want to buy/pirate Composer Pro.

[C4Austin]

I certainly want to see C4 stay in business since I have a considerable investment in their equipment, installation and programming. That said, the reason I selected C4 over many of the competitors was the flexibility offered at the price point. While I may not be representative of the bulk of the C4 purchasers, it is a very appealing system to technical oriented type folks like me.

Composer HE is a great tool for those of us who like to tinker. Given the trouble I've had getting ahold of dealers in this town and having them call me back, I would be in trouble otherwise. My biggest complaint isn't the limitations of the applications but the quality of the dealers, responsiveness and support they should be providing.

That said, it seems silly to me to have to call my dealer to switch out from one brand of TV to another. Since I can't buy C4 hardware without a dealer (at least through channels where I can have an intact warranty which is important to me), having them handle an install and not exposing that functionality to the end user really doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

So it seems that if HE would enable you to install all non-C4 hardware only it would solve alot of problems and complaints that seem to come up constantly on these boards. Keep C4 hardware controlled by the dealers so the dealers/channel are protected but not be hassled for the little things like swapping out TVs, DVD players, etc. My hope is that the dealers would have more time for higher value activities such as quality customer service and being available for hire such that some of the more complex programming and troubleshooting can be done by them.

I like to tinker but I don't want to spend days messing with some functionality where a dealer could come in for a few hours and leverage the knowledge he/she has gained working on other people's installations and their C4 training. That seems to me a better use of services and I would be more than happy to pay higher rates since they are creating higher value.

My 2 cents, hopefully it is constructive.

[pablor]

Not to put words in the writer's mouth but I don't think that is what he was implying. What I took away from the suggestion is that there are dealers that might share the installation work (eg., I install the light switches) and they do the controller installation. I think they also suggested that some dealers might not insist on full MSRP since the market is a bit tighter.

Are you suggesting that Control4 dictates margins? Are you also saying that Control4 specifically says that the customer cannot install or move their own equipment - ever? If you are saying these things then I'll have the dealer pay part of my mortgage too if I need to live with them forever more!

I don't think their was implication of piracy or theft in thecodeman's message.

Dont get discouraged by these forums. There are many dealers out there that have not drank the coolaid and will work with you in any degree you want. No MSRP and DIY are definetely an option with C4. You just have to find the right dealer. Times are tough out there and some dealers DO understand their customers...

So then' date=' it's *okay* to break a written agreement, because times are tough? It's this very reason that C4 is *further restricting* composer pro with serial keys and other methods. Look at what Microsoft is having to do with Genuine Advantage program.

Hey, times are tough,I need to build another pc so I should look for Vista on torrent sites. I need to save $400.

Thank you SteinyD.

.....what?[/quote']

First of all, ALL electrical work requires a permit in most states pulled by a licensed electrician. My dealer subs this out to an electrician or lets you use your own. He is not in the business of installing light switches or being responsible for them. Any Control4 dealer that does this work without pulling a permit OR using a licensed electrician is risking being fined and shut down aside from the liability of the installation. On top of that, where I live they lose the right of being paid for their work! On top of that I question the legality of voiding a warranty for installation by a non-dealer since most dealers dont do the installation themselves anyway...

Second, dictating MSRP or geographic locations for dealers is absolutely illegal. a company cannot dictate either pricing or geographic reach of a dealer. This is the law.

What a delaer does to break or not break his agreement with his provider is their problem. I am not a delaer nor have I signed anything with Control4. The software is not for sale to anyone except the dealer and the dealer is not selling it to anyone so the example of windows vista is totally bogus. All I said is that different dealers work in different ways and charge differently for their services. Some charge NOTHING to log on to your system and add a device after the initial install.

Finally, most dealers dont want to sell certain non-c4 products since there is no margin in them whatsoever. My dealer will not sell TVs and gladly will tell you to buy them somewhere else. And he wont charge to add it to your system when you buy it since it takes a couple of minutes remotely anyway. This is not where he makes any money. He would rather be doing new installs to new customers rather than worrying about selling a single switch to a customer, coordinating with an electrician and having to explain a charge for such bogus and mundane activity. He would much rather give you Pro and focus on bigger and better things than adding your new AppleTV to the system. Of course he cant do it today per license agreement, but he will help you get it done.

As it has been demonstrated over and over in Intellectual Property enforcement, it is nearly impossible to fight giving people what they want. They will either do it legally or illegally but it will get done. I think the music industry has learned how to do it legally and make money doing it. May be one day C4 will realize that just a few of us dont want to break the law or any commercial agreements, we just want to play and tinker with our systems and we dont mind paying a little extra for the privilege

My 2c

[SteinyD]

Why are you reading this thread? I guess you just except everything in life that is told to you how it will be and you live a peaceful existance. Gee, on what principals was this country founded on? If you aren't interested in a debate or discussion or this offends you, don't read the thread. Don't tell me I'm wasting my time and suggest I'm bitching. I wish you all the best and success in your business and don't worry. I won't be calling you for support should I move forward with C4. Seems its your way or the highway. Not the relationship I'd be looking for.

... and you continue to respond as a dealer. To be honest' date=' I can't blame you. You are defending your lively hood. Good chance I would do the same if I had a proprietary product to offer and was afraid it would end up in Best Buy one day.

But you know what. Most people shopping in Best Buy have no clue what to do with what they are buying once they get it home. But guess what also. They have choices. They can attempt the install themselves or they can call a pro. The industry (Home Automation) does not generally afford the consumer choice. The industry continues to want to convince the consumer that this is completely proprietary and we are completely incapable of even considering how I wish to manage this product I am buying to OWN in my OWN HOME. And, because it is controlled as such and the dealer channel is closely managed many of the dealers insist on selling the product at MSRP, charging ridiculous money to plug it in and then more money to make it work. So, I say - there has to be a happy balance here. Why shouldn't the dealer afford the consumer flexibility. If I'm capable of plugging it in, let me. Don't make me have to call you each and every time I move, add change a component in my home system. I buy an ipod and want to bring it home to incorporate with my automation system. I have to call you first? To ask permission? Can I send you part of my mortgage bill too?

You, as a trained dealer would certainly not call another dealer to install the product in YOUR home. Why? because you have the ability to do it yourself. Why shouldn't you have to pay the manufacturer or distributor to do it for you? Just because you are authorized why should you have the ability to install the product for yourself? We can't.

You've forgotten what it is to be a knowledgeable consumer. Lucky for this industry and technology in general a majority of the public is not as knowledgable and will depend on your services. I promise you would be able to sell more product if it were more affordable, allowed the consumer to do what they can and allow you to charge to fix what they break - a revenue opportunity.[/quote']

No one in this thread has ever said you are incapable of programming the system. That is completely irrelevant. I always charge MSRP on my equipment and never discount. Why? A few reasons a) its in my dealer agreement charging less will do no good to this industry c) and my biggest reason is because if a product fails, then I have to go onsite, remove said piece and replace it on my time not yours. Paying full price gets you the service that is expected from my company.

You need to look at us dealers as a friendly relationship. If my clients have questions about some hardware, or how to program something using HE, they call me for assistance. I explain to them things they should do or not and guess what, I DON'T CHARGE THEM. It makes things a lot easier if there is a respectful relationship between us and you.

Of course I wouldn't call a dealer to do something in my home because I am one. I have put MY TIME, MONEY and EFFORT growing with the problems and changes from C4 since 05'-06'. So I think that this analogy is a mute one.

Being a dealer has absolutely nothing to do with my consumer thinking. I buy things everyday and understand it if things are available to me or not. If I was a consumer looking at C4 and wanted the full control and realized they didn't offer that, I would move on to something that would fit my needs and wouldn't bitch about it on some public forum. This is getting you absolutely no where.

[joed]

I think the people at Control4 are missing a HUGE opportunity. They have people who are willing and able to promote their products for free, but instead of supporting and encouraging them, they want to treat them like criminals???? Anyone else find this odd?? Maybe they should read the books "Tribes" by Seth Godin or "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell.

Microsoft doesn't require you to be an MCSE to install Windows. Cisco doesn't require you to be an CCNA or CCNP to install a switch or router. Home Depot doesn't make you show an electical license to buy a light switch. So why does Control4 think their CONSUMER product is any different?

I understand that the dealers like the current arrangement because it protects them.....but as poster said previously, the pool of potential clients would increase if control4 allowed people to buy this stuff direct or if it was sold through Best Buy. The argument i have heard against this is that Control4 doesn't have the tech support facilities to support this business model. At some point they will need to go that route if they want to grow beyond what the current dealer only distribution allows.

My hope is that a larger company acquires Control4 and takes this technology direct to the consumers, because I don't see that happening with the current management. If some of the current dealers drop Control4 because of this, then it is their loss. As there are a lot of people making money supporting Microsoft, Cisco, etc; there will a lot of money to be make supporting Control4.

- Joe

[Mav-Jason]

Interesting points from both sides of the topic. I can say as an installer of C4, that is is not as easy as may think. It is way more than building the rooms, adding the drivers, making the connections and off you go. If it WERE that simple then I would agree that anyone (technically minded) could do it. It's just not that simple. I have seen some VERY STRANGE things occur during installs, things I myself have had to call C4 tech support on. Things like lights changing rooms on their own (ie, put a dimmer in hallway, but dining room turns it on), having to build 'ghost' rooms to trick a glitchy driver, remove then re-add equip to make it behave... etc (list goes on and on).

It is the experience of building these systems everyday, and over and over again, that you so called 'power users' are lacking. And I could see much frustration coming from all of this. Then off you go to the intrawebs to tell everyone how C4 blows goats and is junk because you can't get the equipment to play nice. That situation is GUARANTEED to happen.

Open it up to the public, and the public will mangle it. That's my 2 cents.

[pablor]

Interesting points from both sides of the topic. I can say as an installer of C4, that is is not as easy as may think. It is way more than building the rooms, adding the drivers, making the connections and off you go. If it WERE that simple then I would agree that anyone (technically minded) could do it. It's just not that simple. I have seen some VERY STRANGE things occur during installs, things I myself have had to call C4 tech support on. Things like lights changing rooms on their own (ie, put a dimmer in hallway, but dining room turns it on), having to build 'ghost' rooms to trick a glitchy driver, remove then re-add equip to make it behave... etc (list goes on and on).

It is the experience of building these systems everyday, and over and over again, that you so called 'power users' are lacking. And I could see much frustration coming from all of this. Then off you go to the intrawebs to tell everyone how C4 blows goats and is junk because you can't get the equipment to play nice. That situation is GUARANTEED to happen.

Open it up to the public, and the public will mangle it. That's my 2 cents.

So what you are saying is that the product is still to immature and buggy to be given to the masses... That I understand; i may not like it, but I understand... And this is what Phast was known for... May be current management does not have a solid understanding of QC? May be Zigbee and wireless in general is so buggy and unreliable that in this current iteration it is not what its been cracked up to be?

I have a whole house full of Zwave (open standard Zigbee) switches by Lutron talking to Homeseer and I can tell you that it is not perfect. Better than X10 for sure, but not perfect. I dont know too many non-techies that would put up with it working 98%. This was a DIY installation. Not sure if someone could get a 100% installation on Zwave as a professional... I hope my new home with Control4 gets the extra 2% quality. I have chosen a quality dealer to help me through and actually be responsible for 100% quality. I would return the whole thing if it didnt work as promised. For that I will pay a dealer gladly. On the other hand, once it works, I am quite capable of maintaining all of it myself and never see the dealer again if I so desire...

[Mav-Jason]

So what you are saying is that the product is still to immature and buggy to be given to the masses... That I understand; i may not like it, but I understand... And this is what Phast was known for... May be current management does not have a solid understanding of QC? May be Zigbee and wireless in general is so buggy and unreliable that in this current iteration it is not what its been cracked up to be?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the installation/ programming side is trickier than most may think. For a medium sized project we schedule a few hours to 'program' it, then a day and a half to 'tweak it' to do what the client wants.

All of my clients have 100% operable systems, and RAVE about C4 and how awesome it is. And MOST dealers achieve the same.

Also, your DIY example shows exactly what I think the problem would end up being... a bunch of 98% operable, self programmed, 'messes'.

[joed]

Interesting points from both sides of the topic. I can say as an installer of C4, that is is not as easy as may think. It is way more than building the rooms, adding the drivers, making the connections and off you go. If it WERE that simple then I would agree that anyone (technically minded) could do it. It's just not that simple.

I've been running my system for 2 years now and actually I found it just that simple. Granted I only have 2 controllers and 3 remotes in my system, but I am controlling 5 TV's, 2 DVD Jukeboxes, 2 satellite receivers and an 8x8 component video switch.

I have seen some VERY STRANGE things occur during installs, things I myself have had to call C4 tech support on. Things like lights changing rooms on their own (ie, put a dimmer in hallway, but dining room turns it on), having to build 'ghost' rooms to trick a glitchy driver, remove then re-add equip to make it behave... etc (list goes on and on).

I wouldn't put that in the Control4 marketing literature.

It is the experience of building these systems everyday, and over and over again, that you so called 'power users' are lacking.

No one here is saying that this should be a DYI only solution. There will always be a need for professional services. If the solution is too buggy to consumers that is one thing, but trying to protect the customer from themselves seems like a bad business model.

I have a lot of experience designing and installing computer networks. I get paid well for my experience, but that doesn't mean people with less experience are unworthy to try.

Open it up to the public, and the public will mangle it. That's my 2 cents.

Good, then the dealers can make good money helping people out.

[joed]

Also, your DIY example shows exactly what I think the problem would end up being... a bunch of 98% operable, self programmed, 'messes'.

So lets throw out all the 100% DYI installations because some people might mess it up?

The argument that "this is the way Control4 wants it" is easier to accept than "only dealers are knowledgeable enough to install it". Although both suck.

[Mav-Jason]

Hey you edited your post and added a bunch of stuff. Good luck on your install, and happy times to you with HE.

We uses Harmony to control the z-wave stuff that we run into, the 1000 to be specific. I know there are some Logitech haters out there, but I can make that 1000 dance. The 1000 is a deadly little unit in the right hands... I can make it compare to C4 7" wireless TS (well, almost )

[Mav-Jason]

@ jdorman... WOW way to twist some words around!

It's like this. Would you try to work on a newer car? Swap an engine or do an upgrade to any of the modern vehicles in our day? No you wouldn't, you'd take it to a mechanic if you wanted it done right, and without busted knuckles.

I'm not saying this can't be done, I just think it's a bad idea for C4 in the long run.

[joed]

@ jdorman... WOW way to twist some words around!

It's like this. Would you try to work on a newer car? Swap an engine or do an upgrade to any of the modern vehicles in our day? No you wouldn't, you'd take it to a mechanic if you wanted it done right, and without busted knuckles.

I'm not saying this can't be done, I just think it's a bad idea for C4 in the long run.

WOW way to use a totally inappropriate analogy. Try using one in the IT or consumer electronic marketplace.

Composer is a lot easier to use than the ProntoProEdit NG software I used to use. The only difference is that Philips is willing to let me try and fail.

Not sure how quoting you can be seen as twisting words around.

[joed]

It just hit me, my car is actually in the shop getting the engine replaced. Seriously. Long story.

While i am not doing the work, there was nothing stopping me from buying the engine and trying it myself. I'm sure if i messed it up no one would blame Honda. They would blame me.

- Joe

[Mav-Jason]

Here let me quote myself for ya...

"WITHOUT BUSTED KNUCKLES" (<<< which I think is a GREAT analogy)

and

"I'm not saying this can't be done, I just think it's a bad idea for C4 in the long run."

It's just my 2 cents... here you can have them, both pennies.

[SteinyD]

Mav-Jason -

I agree with you. In my posts I never intended to imply there is no reason for the customer installer and I never intended to imply that this is so easy, "even a caveman could do it". My argument unlike many others is about CHOICE and OWNERSHIP. I want the choice to manage my assets in my home when and how I chose. If I 'F' it up or I realize my limitations I know there are qualified installers that I can pay to do the work.

I want to be able to choose. That is all. I am not afforded that ability with C4 and even worse with many home control systems. I personally don't like the feeling of being at someone's mercy. I realize I am not a mechanical engineer and need to call my A/C company for repairs. But, I can choose to attempt a repair myself. I'm not forced one way or another.

This is my only argument. CHOICE and control of what I OWN.

There will be someone reading this that will sarcastically say, "you can choose to buy something else" and they would be right. However, I CHOOSE to engage in a lively debate. Our country allows this sort of thing!

David

Interesting points from both sides of the topic. I can say as an installer of C4, that is is not as easy as may think. It is way more than building the rooms, adding the drivers, making the connections and off you go. If it WERE that simple then I would agree that anyone (technically minded) could do it. It's just not that simple. I have seen some VERY STRANGE things occur during installs, things I myself have had to call C4 tech support on. Things like lights changing rooms on their own (ie, put a dimmer in hallway, but dining room turns it on), having to build 'ghost' rooms to trick a glitchy driver, remove then re-add equip to make it behave... etc (list goes on and on).

It is the experience of building these systems everyday, and over and over again, that you so called 'power users' are lacking. And I could see much frustration coming from all of this. Then off you go to the intrawebs to tell everyone how C4 blows goats and is junk because you can't get the equipment to play nice. That situation is GUARANTEED to happen.

Open it up to the public, and the public will mangle it. That's my 2 cents.