This from Control 4 in reference to having Composer Pro

[PeterM1]

It's more complicated than that, but pretty much irrelevant at this point.

RyanE

Not if you hang out at remotecentral

[RyanE]

Regardless of remotecentral, it's still pretty much irrelevant.

In a lot of ways, the forums at remotecentral are irrelevant. A lot of half-truths and full-out lies along with some decent information, from what I've seen.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany..."

RyanE

[henniae]

...

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany..."

RyanE

Funny. Very funny.

[SteinyD]

I need to take a deep breath before sharing my thoughts. I have been lurking around these forums for a bit of time while I have been reviewing and deciding which direction I want to take in establishing a home automation platform for my home. A bit of background. I have been working in IT for nearly 25 years. Some in small mom and pop shops supporting small and large sized businesses. During the last 15 years I have been working for large global enterprises (80,000+ employees) and project managing technology deployed to our global datacenters. I've managed help desks and have been involved in many end user touch type IT environments.

On top of this, I'm a geek. I'm a gadget junky and love technology. My wife and I just moved from a home where we very proudly designed and worked with contractors to build a dedicated theater in our basement. I used installers where I understood my technical limitations were and learned from them. I managed my theater environment on a day to day basis and called on the installers where necessary. Running cabling, programming my Universal Remote, controlling lights with Lutron Grafik-Eye products I was able to do. Electrical work? not my forte. I hired the experts. I've replaced every electrical outlet in the house and have done various other repair projects, again hiring installers or professionals when and where necessary. These are all choices I made.

As I look at the home automation industry, I find one that does not provide consumers choices. They dictate how and when and what I can control. They walk out the door and leave me at their mercy. As I've looked at products I've quickly eliminated products such as AMX, Crestron, etc. Why? Because the code that operates the environment is left with me in compiled (C++ ?) code. I don't have a backup of the software. If I have a falling out with the installer, I don't have the uncompiled code to go to another installer. Crestron doesn't hold the code in 'escrow' in case a dealer goes out of business, closes the business voluntarily or I just wish to choose to work with someone else. In large enterprises, it is not uncommon to have code held in escrow in order to protect the client. Why this industry doesn't do that, I don't know.

Tonight, I registered my account on this system so that I can reply to this thread. Having read it, I'm very disappointed. Control4 has been my leading candidate for some time. As a matter of fact, the house we are leaving in now (purchased 7 months ago) is currently in planning for major renovation. It is my intent to do pre-wiring and begin the first phase of HA implementation. I've spoken with Control4 dealers in my area. Yes, everyone in business deserves to earn a living. However, quoting MSRP for a product, then charging $100/hr for programming and $25/switch for installation is just plain taking advtange of a situation setup for them by the manfucturer.

Every product has a place. I understand a product such as Crestron is great for a commercial business or resident that wants to have nothing to with maintaining their installation. "Just make it work and show me how to use it". This is not me, and this is not true of a small percentage of home DIY folks with technical knowledge. I agree with an earlier post that used annalogies of buying a guitar and choosing to learn how to use it or not. I couldn't imagine being forced to hire an instructor in order to buy the guitar.

I've read articles of late suggesting the industry doesn't understand why home automation hasn't hit the masses as yet. It is because of the cost and constraints to acquire it and maintain it. I agree the prices of the Control4 products don't compare to the likes of Crestron but they are still not affordable to install and maintain. If a potential client feels they have the ability to install a product, they should be allowed to. If they fail, then it sounds like there is even a better opportunity for an installer to be a hero. If they succeed, there is an increased opportunity to sell the customer more product because they've realized the value of the product.

I know I've rambled but this sort of business model can't be right. There has to be a better way to offer this product to consumers in a way that the consumer wishes to purchase it. Sell the Pro version with a hardware key if piracy is the concern. Require the key to be installed on a controller. There are plenty of ways to deal with situations such as this. But I don't think this is the case. This is all about ensuring installers have a means of generating revenue above and beyond the hardware sale. I think this model only causes bad will between the manufacturer -> consumer and the dealer -> consumer. I would be less likely to add onto my system if I know every time I want to buy something to add to the system I need to call someone to add it for a fee. As with someone else in this forum I add / remove equipment from my system on a very regular basis. I should be able to do this IF I can when I want.

Again, sorry for the ramble. I'm just very disappointed in what I've read here and will rethink my choices.

David

[thecodeman]

I think c4 puts itself in a nice place between something allowing full control over diy like chramed quark (cqc) and no control (amx or cresteon). If it fits your needs great, if not, sorry there are other options. To think that control4 at this point will cater to such a small group of it's comparatively small installaition base is very focoused thinking I believe. For what it's worth my good friends dad works at crestron corporate - we've messed with older crestron gear at my house and his - and I've tried cqc. C4 works great for me. As will always be said your mileage may vary. Competition and the market overall will dictate c4s future not the guys on this forum (me included) that bellyache about being locked out. IMO.

[SteinyD]

That isn't the point and my comments weren't targeted at C4. I just can't imagine any other industry shutting down how you - the owner of the product - use the product or disallow your enabling its ability. In the simple case of light control, could you imagine if you had to call the local utility company if you wanted to change out a light switch for a dimmable one? Or, if you had to call Lutron in order to enable the dimming portion of a dimming module that you bought at Home Depot? What if you bought your A/V receiver and to enable it to connect an ipod dock you had to contact the receiver manufacturer to enable the function? What if there were a cost each time you wanted to enable a feature that was already built into these products? What if you buy a car and in order to use the navigation system you had to pay an additional fee to enable it. In all these cases, you already purchased the product that has the in-built feature. You want to pay again to use it?

I still think there is something very wrong with this industry. It is all about control and less about flexibility. If they really want to push automation into homes so that it is as common as your home utilities, then they need to find a happy middle in cost of ownership and flexibility, allowing those that have can do their own full or partial installation do it. If they F it up then they know there is a dealer they can call (at a fee) to fix their F up or to do what the home owner cannot. So for us 'few' as you say that are out here, put a price on what they won't sell us today. If we're willing to pay it, sell it to us (referencing the enabling software).

We're about to do remodeling of our home. Each contractor we've spoken to knows what I'm willing to do and what I want them to do, recognizing my limitations. I'm not paying them to do something I, a) have the ability to do, time to do and desire to do. Why should the home automation have the ability to dictate to me what I can't do with something I've purchased if I'm able to do it? It is MINE! I bought it!

I think c4 puts itself in a nice place between something allowing full control over diy like chramed quark (cqc) and no control (amx or cresteon). If it fits your needs great, if not, sorry there are other options. To think that control4 at this point will cater to such a small group of it's comparatively small installaition base is very focoused thinking I believe. For what it's worth my good friends dad works at crestron corporate - we've messed with older crestron gear at my house and his - and I've tried cqc. C4 works great for me. As will always be said your mileage may vary. Competition and the market overall will dictate c4s future not the guys on this forum (me included) that bellyache about being locked out. IMO.

[thecodeman]

OK I still think you missed my point about how you *can* have full control, with CQC, you *can* have a lot of control with Control4, and you *can* have NO control (only a dealer can make changes to the project) with Crestron/AMX.

The example with "enabling the dimmer portion of the dimmer you bought at home depot - call Lutron" - you're supposed to buy C4 products through a dealer, who will install that item in your project. That's expected. I dont expect to buy a videocard from NVIDIA and expect them to come install it and add drivers.

I drive a 2003 avalanche. In order for me to receive XM radio or OnStar, I have to *pay* a subscription fee, even though I've already *paid* for the equipment in the cost of the car. Otherwise it's just sitting there.

IMO control4 has found the "happy middle". The products are moreso affordable than traditional control systems, yet allow you to do more things to your own project than those same traditional control systems without being a dealer.

[lippavisual]

you *can* have full control, with CQC, you *can* have a lot of control with Control4, and you *can* have NO control (only a dealer can make changes to the project) with Crestron/AMX.

Exactly!!!

I'm in no way trying to offend or start an argument, but, I've been reading these threads lately and am getting sick and tired of hearing the same crap being spewed left and right. There are plenty of other sources out there that will let you have FULL CONTROL over your system. If that's what you want, then go talk to them.

Control4 has stated its business practices since day one. It is a dealer-installed system. I'm sorry to say that C4 probably isn't going to change anything with thier model because there are these 20 or so people on these forums that keep bringing this issue up.

If you don't like it, look elsewhere. Plain and simple.

[akg4y]

Although I agree with you SteinyD, Im not sure what business model would be best to satisfy what we as consumers want along with the corporation. The main issue I see with allowing distribution of the software freely is the overall security of the system. If the control software is available to everyone there would be a much higher likelihood of some hacker remotely accessing our systems and not only watching our security cameras but also possibly disabling security systems etc.

I would like it if dealers were given discretion to allow customers to have Composer Pro functionality. I can bet that a large number of end users that frequent these boards could teach some of their dealers plenty of programming tricks.

[PeterM1]

Regardless of remotecentral, it's still pretty much irrelevant.

In a lot of ways, the forums at remotecentral are irrelevant. A lot of half-truths and full-out lies along with some decent information, from what I've seen.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany..."

RyanE

Ignoring the voice of the dealers that Phast burned at the time (several frequent remotecentral) is not a very wise decision, especially if Control4 wants to demostrate a different direction going forward.

[Kevin L]

Regardless of remotecentral' date=' it's still pretty much irrelevant.

In a lot of ways, the forums at remotecentral are irrelevant. A lot of half-truths and full-out lies along with some decent information, from what I've seen.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany..."

RyanE[/quote']

Ignoring the voice of the dealers that Phast burned at the time (several frequent remotecentral) is not a very wise decision, especially if Control4 wants to demostrate a different direction going forward.

maybe the fact that when phast was shut down it was owned by AMX!!!!!

amx bought Phast.. be mad at AMX not the execs at Control4

[thecodeman]

amx bought Phast..

This is true, I have a friend that works at AMX coporate in Plano.

[PeterM1]

Regardless of remotecentral' date=' it's still pretty much irrelevant.

In a lot of ways, the forums at remotecentral are irrelevant. A lot of half-truths and full-out lies along with some decent information, from what I've seen.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany..."

RyanE[/quote']

Ignoring the voice of the dealers that Phast burned at the time (several frequent remotecentral) is not a very wise decision, especially if Control4 wants to demostrate a different direction going forward.

maybe the fact that when phast was shut down it was owned by AMX!!!!!

amx bought Phast.. be mad at AMX not the execs at Control4

I personally don't care as I was not in the CI business then so I have no first hand experience of what happened, I was just responding to the reply that statements at remotecentral are irrelevant, they're not IMO (once you cut through the noise of a few select posters). Several remotecentral folks also hang out at IP where their voices are heard more loudly between other fellow dealers.

Search the corresponding threads on C4/Phast and AMX barely comes up. I'm not arguing the facts, what I am saying however is that perception is reality.

[Automation1tmai]

StienyD, Well said!!!

One thing I just can't understand. I have heard alot of dealers tell the story here of how Composser pro in the hands of an owner would just cause system failures and ill words on the forums. Well with all due respect to the dealers here I just wonder why not ONE has said it was because we want to make money off C4 users whenever there are any changes needed! I just think the second reason is just as valid as the first so why don't you just say so!

Don't get me wrong here I do understand that you are dealers and that's what you do (I don't however agree that the HA field should be charging the pay rate of occupations that require a masters degree) but I still think the HA companies should let people who purchase this equipment choose what they want to do with it just like everything else out there.

[lippavisual]

StienyD, Well said!!!

One thing I just can't understand. I have heard alot of dealers tell the story here of how Composser pro in the hands of an owner would just cause system failures and ill words on the forums. Well with all due respect to the dealers here I just wonder why not ONE has said it was because we want to make money off C4 users whenever there are any changes needed! I just think the second reason is just as valid as the first so why don't you just say so!

Don't get me wrong here I do understand that you are dealers and that's what you do (I don't however agree that the HA field should be charging the pay rate of occupations that require a masters degree) but I still think the HA companies should let people who purchase this equipment choose what they want to do with it just like everything else out there.

Go ahead, it's called CQC. Have fun with all the tinkering and toying you want. And yes, we do make money, just like you do.

[Automation1tmai]

That's not really the point. there are a ton of HA systems out there that are DIY! I started using them since X-10 and HAL2000. I just like C4 that's why I purchased it.

[pablor]

That isn't the point and my comments weren't targeted at C4. I just can't imagine any other industry shutting down how you - the owner of the product - use the product or disallow your enabling its ability. In the simple case of light control, could you imagine if you had to call the local utility company if you wanted to change out a light switch for a dimmable one? Or, if you had to call Lutron in order to enable the dimming portion of a dimming module that you bought at Home Depot? What if you bought your A/V receiver and to enable it to connect an ipod dock you had to contact the receiver manufacturer to enable the function? What if there were a cost each time you wanted to enable a feature that was already built into these products? What if you buy a car and in order to use the navigation system you had to pay an additional fee to enable it. In all these cases, you already purchased the product that has the in-built feature. You want to pay again to use it?

I still think there is something very wrong with this industry. It is all about control and less about flexibility. If they really want to push automation into homes so that it is as common as your home utilities, then they need to find a happy middle in cost of ownership and flexibility, allowing those that have can do their own full or partial installation do it. If they F it up then they know there is a dealer they can call (at a fee) to fix their F up or to do what the home owner cannot. So for us 'few' as you say that are out here, put a price on what they won't sell us today. If we're willing to pay it, sell it to us (referencing the enabling software).

We're about to do remodeling of our home. Each contractor we've spoken to knows what I'm willing to do and what I want them to do, recognizing my limitations. I'm not paying them to do something I, a) have the ability to do, time to do and desire to do. Why should the home automation have the ability to dictate to me what I can't do with something I've purchased if I'm able to do it? It is MINE! I bought it!

I think c4 puts itself in a nice place between something allowing full control over diy like chramed quark (cqc) and no control (amx or cresteon). If it fits your needs great, if not, sorry there are other options. To think that control4 at this point will cater to such a small group of it's comparatively small installaition base is very focoused thinking I believe. For what it's worth my good friends dad works at crestron corporate - we've messed with older crestron gear at my house and his - and I've tried cqc. C4 works great for me. As will always be said your mileage may vary. Competition and the market overall will dictate c4s future not the guys on this forum (me included) that bellyache about being locked out. IMO.

Dont get discouraged by these forums. There are many dealers out there that have not drank the coolaid and will work with you in any degree you want. No MSRP and DIY are definetely an option with C4. You just have to find the right dealer. Times are tough out there and some dealers DO understand their customers...

[thecodeman]

That's not really the point. there are a ton of HA systems out there that are DIY! I started using them since X-10 and HAL2000. I just like C4 that's why I purchased it.

I bought an iPhone 3G. I am restricted by apple on what applications I use on my iPhone. If I need help I have to go to the apple store or call in. The phone does not MMS, which is something that all the other phones on ATT can do, provided they have a camera. MANY people complain about MMS lacking since it's launch among other things, and yet apple has not fixed it. However, I bought into the ecosystem of Apple, therefore I am restricted to that ecosystem. If I want more freedom, I can go back to the (antiquated) Windows Mobile platform, but then I would whine and complain about how OLD it looks in comparison.

I think I'm starting to run out of parallels to make here. :/

[thecodeman]

Dont get discouraged by these forums. There are many dealers out there that have not drank the coolaid and will work with you in any degree you want. No MSRP and DIY are definetely an option with C4. You just have to find the right dealer. Times are tough out there and some dealers DO understand their customers...

So then, it's *okay* to break a written agreement, because times are tough? It's this very reason that C4 is *further restricting* composer pro with serial keys and other methods. Look at what Microsoft is having to do with Genuine Advantage program.

Hey, times are tough,I need to build another pc so I should look for Vista on torrent sites. I need to save $400.

.....what?

[Automation1tmai]

Well how about this parallel. How do you think you would do if every part of a C4 install you quoted (Sony DVD, router, media player, ethernet cable, xbox, speakers, TV, reciever, etc.......) required you to hire an installer?

[thecodeman]

Well how about this parallel. How do you think you would do if every part of a C4 install you quoted (Sony DVD, router, media player, ethernet cable, xbox, speakers, TV, reciever, etc.......) required you to hire an installer?

After the initial install? I would make sure that it's really what I wanted to do, and then call the dealer. Maybe try to do it a "phase" at a time to get multiple things done at once. It is what it is. If I dont like it I can go back to CQC or just not integrate it with control4. I want to add more lights to my project, but I havent, because I dont want to do it one at a time. I want to save up for all my lights, and then have them installed all at once. Plus it's easier to keep track of the warranty that way. Thats just my opinion though. My wife is actually glad its this way, so that I'm not breaking the system all the time jacking with it

[joemci]

Interesting topic that seems to come up every 6 months or so!

What is Control4's policy on a dealer selling a client the equipment, having the client install the equipment and then the dealer remotely setting up the system. The client never gets Composer Pro, but can use the Composer Home Edition to do pretty much everything but set up the system. It is so easy to remotely program the system that I would think this would be a happy medium for the DIY person and Control4.

Any thoughts on Control4's position on this scenario?

Joe

[thecodeman]

So far as I know, by the client installing the Control4 equipment (dimmer, switch, etc), the Control4 warranty is invalidated. Now, if the dealer wants to let the client install their own tv or sony receiver for example, and call the dealer and have him remotely add those devices to the project based on how the client tells him it's hooked up, is entirely up to the dealer from what I have seen.

[Automation1tmai]

See, a perfect example of one who prefers a closed system and would rather hire a professional installer! There are many who would no problem! Just think a choice would be a good thing for the industry.

[jbs]

Let's keep in mind, Control4 is a commercial product in a crowded field of competitive products which range from the total DIY to the utterly black box. C4 for MANY users provides a happy middle ground. No one, as far as I'm aware, has ever been forced at gunpoint to purchase Control4 or any other home automation system. If what you want is a DIY solution, go buy a DIY solution. If you want to drive offroad would you should up at a Ferrari dealership and complain to them over and over about how making roadsters, and insisting on low clearance was preventing you from driving a Ferrari offroad? If you wanted to play Blu-Ray discs, would you go buy a standard DVD player and complain at the store about how you can't get 1080-resoution on your SD DVD player? Those who repeatedly complain about the business model are complaining about something that is fundamental to the product. It is the model C4 chose and whether you want to believe it or not it's a model that works better for the 99.9% of people who don't, in fact, know what compiled code versus source code is.

Let me say once again, boards like these are not a representative sample of the marketplace. Talk to your neighbors, talk to your friends and if you don't work in an IT department talk to some co-workers. Most of them probably would prefer something that gets set up and then works. They don't want to write the code themselves.

Then let's remember that C4 has bent over backwards in their design to make the VAST majority of programming (post-setup) accessible to the user with a $150 software purchase. They've also made the intellectual property your dealer creates (the C4P file) yours. If your dealer pisses you off, goes out of business or raises his rates, you can have any other C4 dealer pick up the file and work on it, no compiled code issues whatsoever.

Moreover, C4 has even removed the geographic discrimination which exists in so many other markets. I can have a dealer log into my system from anywhere in the world and make changes.

And finally, in spite of the scorn that government and the media like to heap on those evil companies that want to (gasp!) make money, can we stop acting like we're accusing dealers or Control4 of some venal sin when we say they want to make money? I am not dealer, I am a customer. I paid for my equipment and I paid for a dealer to install it, wire it and set it all up.

I HOPE THEY MADE MONEY. I HOPE CONTROL4 MADE MONEY. I HOPE THE FACTORY THAT ASSEMBLED THE STUFF IN CHINA MADE MONEY. Because if any of them stop making money, I assume they'll start going into some other line of work, and then when I want the next feature, the next product or the next service call, I"m going to be sitting here all alone, wondering why no one wants to be in the Control4 business anymore.

To paraphrase Gordon Gecko, making a living is good. And when you can do so at half or a quarter the price point of Crestron, it's good for everyone (OK, everyone except Crestron).

--Jason