This from Control 4 in reference to having Composer Pro

[K&J]

There have been many questions, statements and other ideas on this particular subject.

After discussing this with Paul, I received his permission to post this on the forum.

All,

Let me speak officially from Control4.

We DO NOT support or advocate end users having or using Composer Pro!

The software is copyright protected and our dealers are prohibited, as per their Dealer Agreement, from distributing the software to customers.

Control4 DOES NOT distribute Composer Pro to end users.

We do investigate all reports of internet sales and violations of Composer Pro distribution. In fact, we have terminated dealers in this past year for these types of violations. We are concerned about protecting our valued Dealers.

In a future version of Composer Pro we will be encrypting and protecting the software from open distribution.

As always, if you are aware of activity (internet sales / Composer Pro distribution) that violates our Dealer Agreement, please contact me directly (contact information below) to report the violation. We will treat your report anonymously and with sensitivity.

Kind Regards,

Paul Williams, V.P. Support Services

Direct - 801-523-3106

Email - pwilliams@control4.com

[Mav-Jason]

NICE! GO GO PRO POLICE!!!

lol

[neil12011]

I think maybe he's just saying enjoy it while it lasts. In the future it will be more locked down, which isn't 100%. I will continue to assist end users with programming related to anything that can be done with HE. However, I will not assist customers who have chosen to obtain a pirated copy of ANY software and post questions boasting of such. I think the sentiment is the same with most dealers, we are here to help (free of charge). For those who have opted to do things completely on their own, then they pretty much are. I and the other dealers and Control4 staff that post regularly will continue to serve the C4 community as best we can.

Neil Blasingame

Garrison Home Theater

neil_blasingame@yahoo.com

[Mav-Jason]

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree! Just think it's hilarious that people will be getting busted by the PRO POLICE.

[Automation1tmai]

Well I have been in the technology field for more than 20 years now and I still can't believe how hard some companies try NOT to sell there equipment to people who want to purchase it. What I mean is you can go and buy just about anything and have the choice to work with it yourself, or for those who choose hire a professional for assistance. I can go into a store and purchase a guitar and choose to learn how to play it, or hire a professional guitar player to teach me to play it. It's not like I will walk into the store ask to buy a guitar and the salesperson tells me "Well I cant sell you this guitar unless you purchase this guitar teacher with it to teach you to play". I think the same goes for a car a house or just about anything. I can purchase a car and when it breaks can chose to repair it myself or hire a professional to do the job. No one is going tell me they cant sell me a car unless I buy the mechanic with it in case it breaks. I am just saying what if everything automation dealers work with needed the dealers assistance in order to purchase the item. You want to add a Sony DVP-777 for a customer you must hire a Sony dealer to install it. You want to buy ethernet cabling to install a customers system you must hire a dealer to install it to make sure it is terminated the correct way. You want to add a EVA8000 to a customers system, fine but you must have a Netgear tech install the device. I am sure some of the installers who are affiliated with larger dealers have installed automation systems on there own time for there residences because they had the affiliations. Would you do it if you needed to hire a dealer because you are just an installer and not technically the dealer? I have to believe that some of the guys who are installers and not technically dealers have installed systems themselves or have even worked with other control systems just for the fun of it or some of the tech savvy guys out there affiliated with dealers may even attempt to install their own systems if they where not affiliated with a dealer only because you enjoy it or don't have the means to pay a dealer. With all due respect to the C4 dealers out there (I also have to hire a dealer to make changes to my system) do any of the dealers out there feel that their companies are in jeopardy from the few people out there who would like to attempt there own installs? Thankfully I was able to hire a C4 dealer and install my system (not the case with the other high end system I first considered because I just didn't have the means to afford that price tag!) I just don't seem to understand why dealers don't focus more on customers who want, need or appreciate hiring professional assistance and just don't spend so much time worrying about the few folks out there who chose to experiment with there own systems.

[montekay]

Making the software unavailable to end users is done for only one reason...to make more money for their dealers. The problem is that all they are doing is losing sales and defeating their own purpose.

Most people probably want a custom installer to program their system so Control4 doesn't have to worry about these people stealing the software. The people that do want to program it themselves simply find other options instead of buying Control4 products. The few that steal the software represent sales Control4 may not have gotten otherwise and yet they complain.

So, if they choose to hurt their own sales that's fine. I personally was pretty excited about Control4 when I first discovered it a week ago but I have concluded that it's not for me specifically because of their attitude about the software. So in my opinion it appears to be a great product with bad management decisions. My solution will be to make my own, an option unfortunately not available to most and not particularly convenient for me but at least I don't have anyone telling me I can't program it myself.

mk

[Kevin L]

i really dont understand why people want the software so bad

hire an installer. have him program the system.. THERE IS NOTHING YOU NEED TO CHANGE

if you want to edit lighting scenes and misc things purchase the home edition software. its not very complex.

for you guys who want 1 controller and do a simple system sure maybe a piece of software will come out one day to let you program your own system but the fact is its not a harmony remote. there are things that need to be put in place with proper design and Control4 wants to make sure that part gets done. If control4 had to educate consumers on how to design and program a system they wouldnt ever sell anything.. they would be busy training the public

[montekay]

i really dont understand why people want the software so bad

hire an installer. have him program the system.. THERE IS NOTHING YOU NEED TO CHANGE

if you want to edit lighting scenes and misc things purchase the home edition software. its not very complex.

for you guys who want 1 controller and do a simple system sure maybe a piece of software will come out one day to let you program your own system but the fact is its not a harmony remote. there are things that need to be put in place with proper design and Control4 wants to make sure that part gets done. If control4 had to educate consumers on how to design and program a system they wouldnt ever sell anything.. they would be busy training the public

Some people just like to have control. I don't want to have to call someone if I decide I want to add or change something. As for Control4 having to educate consumers I disagree. They should concentrate on consumers that utilize their trained installers and offer only limited support for those using the software on their own and possibly put up a user forum on their web site where these DIY users could teach each other. And as for, "nothing you need to change"...are you kidding? Hard core audio and theatre people live for upgrades and changes! They (we) enjoy upgrading and changing more than we enjoy the equipment we have while we have it! Nothing you need to change! Well, yeah ok that market probably needs professional installers and if C4 wants to limit themselves to that market then I guess that's their business.

mk

[jbs]

This conversation seems to be happening in 5 different threads simultaneously, so sorry for repeating myself here. I am not a dealer but I continue to maintain that C4 makes a perfectly reasonable business decision based on the fact that a very small percentage of users would ever want access beyond HE (it might be 50% of users on this non-random sample on this board, but it's probably only .5% of their overall users, most of whom don't even use HE). And of those who might want to do their own install, it would only take one screwing up their system, blaming C4 and starting a website to piss and moan about it to destroy more business and more brand value than they'd ever gain by making the change in the first place.

And yes, C4 wants their dealers to make money. I want their dealers to make money. If the dealers don't make money, they stop dealing C4. If they stop dealing C4 then C4 goes away. If C4 goes away than so do my hopes for one day having a 32x32 holographic blu-ray video matrix serving interactive 4D video to my car during my commute. Dealers making money is good for all of us. Protecting C4's brand and customer experience is good for all of us.

I proposed a compromise here http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=2966 that would address extreme users like me in a way that would also create business value for Control4 and for dealers. I think proposing ideas that benefit dealers and Control4 is ultimately more likely to be productive than for all of us to express our opinions about whether we think C4's current business decisions are good ones or not. Just my opinion.

--Jason

[alanchow]

There are pro's and con's for giving out composerpro and keeping it to dealers. I have seen other automation systems give out their software freely on their website (namely clipsal cbus). The issue though is that there will always be the bad apples out there who claim to be able to program the product (both installers and end users) who end up botching the job. Usually the product is blamed due to the programmers lack of skill and knowledge. Now i know that a few of you are smart and i have no doubt that you probably could pick up and understand control4 programming however the odds are most people won't understand it. In the end Control4 enforce this because well... they have to protect their product. Simple.

[pablor]

That is crap!!! there are a lot more people capable of doing this than C4 or its dealers realize. As a matter of fact, if you look at the users of systems such as Homeseer, mainlobby, or any other PC automation software and the amount of activity on their forums, you would know that the C4 community is tiny compared to the DIY HA market.

Truth of the matter is that C4 management comes from a dealer business model through amx/phast. It is a business choice and not a technical or support issue. They are choosing to protect the dealers. Since it is a low margin product, dealers need service money to make a living. I think they are doing their dealers a disserivce because they are excluding a bunch of potential customers that could use some service/training and product from dealers that are chosing not to buy the product because of the closed and proprietary nature of the software and interfaces.

Time will tell if this is the right approach. I am sure it has been discussed ad nauseum with board members, investors of the company....

[ruckus]

Honestly I think giving Composer to end users would give dealers more work fixing systems then it would take away from the few people who are actually capable of implementing the system correctly themselves.

The issues at play here are very complex and similar to what we see going on in other area of technology and digital entertainment and distribution. I feel like both end users and dealers here have compelling arguments as to who should have complete access to a system. I have my own thoughts as to what might happen in the future, but no one can forecast all the variables such as competition, the economy etc. Only time will tell.

[c44me]

This conversation seems to be happening in 5 different threads simultaneously, so sorry for repeating myself here.

--Jason

jason there seem to be alot of threads happening in multiple places, and people asking the same ?'s over and over. why havent you merged these threads and/or posted a sticky with guidelines and suggestion(s) to search before posting like other forums?

[jbs]

That is cr**!!!

Let's keep the conversation civil. Everyone has their own opinion and each of us is entitled to do so.

The point is not that there aren't some skilled users out there who COULD program their own system. My point, and I believe alanchow's as well, is that the few who think they can, and fail, will blame C4 and rant about it, destroying brand value in the process.

It's a dealer-based product, it's not a DIY product, and it's a perfectly valid business decision for the company to make. Not to be a broken record, but for those of us who'd like to see it change, let's try and focus our energies on a proposition that would work well for dealers, regular users, extreme users and Control4. I've put my ideas out there in this thread http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=2966. If others have ideas, alternatives, suggestions or improvements let's discuss. But to simply scream that one hates this decision or that is unlikely to change anyone's mind.

--Jason

[R_Willis]

Making the software unavailable to end users is done for only one reason...to make more money for their dealers. The problem is that all they are doing is losing sales and defeating their own purpose.

..............

mk

Yeah, but they make good money on the product as it is.

Average markup on the gear seems to run between 40-60% from what I've heard/seen.

[Automation1tmai]

Montekay

That is so funny. I guess some end users get their systems installed and leave it that way but for guys like us if our system doesn't change daily it would be a miracle. Hey there is much cool stuff out there!

[maxspivak]

i really dont understand why people want the software so bad

hire an installer. have him program the system.. THERE IS NOTHING YOU NEED TO CHANGE

Aah, but my system is in constant flux. I need to be able to add/update/remove drivers for hardware as I change it.

Last month I bought AppleTV. Tried it for two weeks, didn't like it, and took it back.

Then I got Comcast's HD tuner for a week. Changed my mind, took it back, and replaced with Tivo HD. Next month I plan to add either Popcorn Hour or Netgear 9150.

So, THERE IS A LOT I NEED TO CHANGE

Max

[Kevin L]

i really dont understand why people want the software so bad

hire an installer. have him program the system.. THERE IS NOTHING YOU NEED TO CHANGE

Aah' date=' but my system is in constant flux. I need to be able to add/update/remove drivers for hardware as I change it.

Last month I bought AppleTV. Tried it for two weeks, didn't like it, and took it back.

Then I got Comcast's HD tuner for a week. Changed my mind, took it back, and replaced with Tivo HD. Next month I plan to add either Popcorn Hour or Netgear 9150.

So, THERE IS A LOT I NEED TO CHANGE

Max[/quote']

there are many dealers on here that can make those programming changes in a matter of seconds..

example

you go buy an apple tv.. email a dealer where you plugged it in.. dealer logs in. adds the driver and binds it properly and you are done.. its not a big deal..

[Kevin L]

Making the software unavailable to end users is done for only one reason...to make more money for their dealers. The problem is that all they are doing is losing sales and defeating their own purpose.

Most people probably want a custom installer to program their system so Control4 doesn't have to worry about these people stealing the software. The people that do want to program it themselves simply find other options instead of buying Control4 products. The few that steal the software represent sales Control4 may not have gotten otherwise and yet they complain.

So, if they choose to hurt their own sales that's fine. I personally was pretty excited about Control4 when I first discovered it a week ago but I have concluded that it's not for me specifically because of their attitude about the software. So in my opinion it appears to be a great product with bad management decisions. My solution will be to make my own, an option unfortunately not available to most and not particularly convenient for me but at least I don't have anyone telling me I can't program it myself.

mk

umm NO this is completely wrong

the reason Composer is in the hands of dealers is because Control4 is not a DYI product. Its an IP Based automation system. YOu can seriously screw up a system with composer. Consumers are not trained on composer, system design or anything else related to control4 except how to actually use the remote

Control4s sales are NOT effected by them not releasing composer to the public.. again.. C4 is NOT a DYI product. its for the customer integrators to sell and install and program your system. not for you to do it your self.. Does crestron or amx or savant or Colorado digital release their programs? NO. Control4 is no different. Its not about making money its about making sure the systems are designed, installed and programmed correctly..

[dogdvr]

i really dont understand why people want the software so bad

hire an installer. have him program the system.. THERE IS NOTHING YOU NEED TO CHANGE

Aah' date=' but my system is in constant flux. I need to be able to add/update/remove drivers for hardware as I change it.

Last month I bought AppleTV. Tried it for two weeks, didn't like it, and took it back.

Then I got Comcast's HD tuner for a week. Changed my mind, took it back, and replaced with Tivo HD. Next month I plan to add either Popcorn Hour or Netgear 9150.

So, THERE IS A LOT I NEED TO CHANGE

Max[/quote']

Here is a thought,

Use the remote that comes with the product until you decide to keep it.

Then AFTER you know you wan't to keep it have your dealer add it.

Problem solved.

By the way,

stick with the netgear 9150 over the PH

it will save you time and headaches:)

[jbs]

umm NO this is completely wrong

the reason Composer is in the hands of dealers is because Control4 is not a DYI product. Its an IP Based automation system. YOu can seriously screw up a system with composer. Consumers are not trained on composer, system design or anything else related to control4 except how to actually use the remote

Control4s sales are NOT effected by them not releasing composer to the public.. again.. C4 is NOT a DYI product. its for the customer integrators to sell and install and program your system. not for you to do it your self.. Does crestron or amx or savant or Colorado digital release their programs? NO. Control4 is no different. Its not about making money its about making sure the systems are designed, installed and programmed correctly..

I'd be curious from any of the people who might also frequent AMX or Crestron boards, does anyone complain there about not being able to get into their system design? Or does the fact that Control4 gives us the ComposerHE option mean that everyone who would want SOME control over their system would lean toward either C4 or DIY and therefore the typical AMX or Crestron user has no interest in doing anything other than calling their dealer and asking them to program x y or z for them, if that.

I do tend to agree with the people who've suggeted that the majority of users of *any* system probably never or rarely change much once it's set up. Those of us who like to tinker a lot are the minority of the general population, just the majority of a board such as this.

--Jason

[GoGo Delicious]

I'd be curious from any of the people who might also frequent AMX or Crestron boards, does anyone complain there about not being able to get into their system design? Or does the fact that Control4 gives us the ComposerHE option mean that everyone who would want SOME control over their system would lean toward either C4 or DIY and therefore the typical AMX or Crestron user has no interest in doing anything other than calling their dealer and asking them to program x y or z for them, if that.

Interesting question. We, as a company have never been asked for software nor is it asked for in Crestron forums. I believe I have seen it asked for twice in two different forums and the response was "it for dealers only" and that was the end of that.

A little bit of how Crestron software works. Crestron's programming softwares is very different from C4 Composer Pro. If you can obtain the software SimplWindows it will not do you any good. You need will 2 additional files. The Crestron Database file and the Products file these files are constantly changing. You will also need another piece of software called "ToolBox" amongst other things you will need it to upload your project to the Controller. You will also need VTPro. Say you add a AppleTV you know have to modify the TP screen in order to Control your new AppleTV.

So to summerize this you will need the following software in order to be able to modify your system. You will need SimplWindows (or SystemBuilder), Crestron Database, Products Database, ToolBox, and VTPro. Even though you have the software you will need the UNCOMPILED program.

With Crestron programming we write the program, compile it and upload it to the Processor. The program we write is the OS. Crestron does not run Windows, *nix, etc. It runs the actual program we write. Even if you have all the software, download the compiled code from your processor there is no way you can modify it. None of the software Crestron has will read a compiled application.

With that said you may ask "How does a Crestron Customer change lighting scenes with out a Crestron HE application". We write that in. There is a page on the TP a client can go and change the date, time (AM/PM, Astronomical), which Lights, what dimming percentage (25%, 50%, etc). All changes a client may want to make are done through the TP. The only thing a client can not do, just like a Control4 client, is add hardware.

With Control4 you have one piece of software that does everything. Once the end user has access to it he does not need to update data bases files or acquire the TP authoring application. Also, the C4 code runs on top of Linux and is not compiled like Crestron. Once someone has the software all they have to do is connect to their Controller and they have full access to the code.

With Control4 it's MUCH easer for a end user to program then a Crestron system is. Also, the fact that you have to know 3 separate programs and be able to have access to update the 2 databases and have access to the uncompiled code makes it less desirable for a Crestron end user to want to program their system.

With everything said above Crestron does offer various programs for large enterprises, consultants, education and government that allows the opportunity to acquire the software and have their employees undergo the exact same training as dealers do. In fact they train right along with dealers. What they can not do is they CAN NOT buy product from Crestron, they have to go through a dealer, such as ourselves but they do their own programming.

Just my 2 cents and a bit of insight on how the Crestron software is handled.

[Automation1tmai]

The big problem I see in Crestron and AMX is it is more or less for the super rich. You have to be a CEO or rockstar to afford it. Also programming these systems is extremely difficult. They actually write code similar to VB and then have to compile the code. No way near what is involved with C4.

If I am correct C4 was designed by someone who was once was part of AMX and was part of the development of AMX Phast equipment. I wish AMX would have kept going with Phast. Well on the other note because they didnt now we have C4. By the way I think this person or group who developed C4 a brilliant! Best overall equipment I have ever tried based on all factors including cost!!!

[ILoveC4]

From what I understand the owners/founders of Control4 owned and founded PHAST, then sold it to AMX.

[RyanE]

It's more complicated than that, but pretty much irrelevant at this point.

RyanE