This from Control 4 in reference to having Composer Pro

[SteinyD]

Thanks Ryan, I appreciate that. As a 'consumer in waiting' (planning), with the known 'rules' of C4 for what the asset owner can do wtih their asset in terms of management and resale / upgrades, how can I be sure that if I make an investment in C4 over the next 60-90 days (the time frame for the start of my project) that I will be protected from having a product that requires a hardware upgrade to behave properly / take advantage of Pro features when C4 'carefully' introduces it into the consumer pipeline?

Has there been any statement of commitment from C4 to its dealers or prospective customers as to their support for Zigbee Pro at any time in the forseeable future? Certainly before making the investment I'd be interested in some form of infromation regarding their roadmap. I realize they don't want to reveal their hand to their competitors but this is an investment and any consumer should have similar questions / concerns.

Yes' date=' Control4 was a founding member of the Zigbee Standards boards, and still has members on those boards. Control4 employees have helped design what the Home Automation profile of ZigbeePro will and will not have. Control4 understands Zigbee quite well, and have always stated that ZigbeePro is certainly something Control4 will support when the time is right.

The reason Control4's devices aren't currently ZigbeePro is that Control4 started selling dimmers and the like in 2005, before there was a Home Automation profile, and there were no standards as to what a 'Zigbee Dimmer' should do.

Control4 *currently* manufactures, sells, and supports ZigbeePro devices in their Hospitality installations (hotels and the like), and ZigbeePro devices are working in some very large installations with virtually no problems.

As stated in a previous post, one of the reasons Control4 is taking it slow on releasing ZigbeePro in the residential market is that there are a *LOT* of existing dimmers, switches, keypads, and the like in the field, and this could be a huge liability if they don't all get updated properly. ZigbeePro is not just a new set of protocols, it's an entire new networking stack, and if you have a lot of devices that are communicating down the line to some other devices, and you update the 'middle' ones, you could abandon those furthest away. That would be bad.

I don't know if 100% of devices will be supported on the ZigbeePro stack. Older controllers such as the HTC and MC, as well as v.1 remotes, etc. may or may not be supported on Control4's ZigbeePro stack, but I'm pretty darn sure that dimmers will be on the *supported* list...

RyanE

Edited for clarity.[/quote']

[jberger]

With technology, there is always something new on the horizon, an upgrade, a product in waiting and new standard, a reason to wait. That's why FUD is so powerful, it makes you hesitate and question your purchases. It's also a good reason why some companies don't pre-announce products.

Worrying about ZigBee Pro is a classic case of Paralysis by Analysis.

There is no reason to wait for ZigbeePro, all of the devices work well today, using the existing standard and implementation. Certainly there are improvements in the new standard but it really doesn't impact today's installations or planning. You install what is available and works today, and when they adopt Pro, you can evaluate if moving to the new standard is even worth it based on your installation.

I'm having a hard time grasping your "asset owner" issues, as the issues are same for virtually all purchases, especially tech.

If it's a new installation, then it should be all new equipment, covered under the generous (IMHO) 2 year warranty. You buy based on today's features and capabilites, so future enhancements are best efforts only, not guaranteed.

If they come out with something you want next year, then you add/update as needed to gain the features you want.

There is certainly a secondary market for used C4 products and a quick check reveals that many items sell for more than $0. Technology rarely gets better with age, so many used items are priced accordingly, especially devices with mechanical wear parts like Fans and Hard Drives.

Dealer trades are difficult but not impossible and you know going into the purchase that C4 sold only via dealers and serviced under those guidelines.

It's hard for a dealer to take trade-ins because it almost always negatively impacts profit and no dealer wants to install used gear and have to carry the burden of service on those items.

[SteinyD]

Thank you for reminding me of the obvious re: tech refresh and your 'analysis paralysis'. The cost of this implementation is nothing near that of a newly purchased television set nor is it similar to a new PC, an iPod or many other components of technology. This is a major investment and something every member of the family will be forced to interact with. So I'm sorry, but I don't put this class of total product - Home Automation - in the same class as other products that obviously go through constant change. I'm a technologist and have been for 30 years. I'm well aware of these situations and the same advice I give to family, friends and colleagues.

My 'asset owner' issue that you are having a hard time grasping is two fold and has been discussed quite a bit here -

Point #1 - I purchase products to manage my home. If I want to change how that product behaves, if I want to buy a 3rd party product that will interact with how the home automation 'project' behaves (eg., Netgear 9150, a DVD player, etc.), I need to pay for and ask permission from a dealer to allow me to do that. This is my house, these are my walls and everything in it is my responsibility. I pay the bills and make the choices. Why do I need to pay for and ask someone for permission to change the way my system works? Why can't I, at some cost (time to learn, purchase price, etc), have the software necessary to manage my automation / integration. If I trip on my shoelaces then I know for a fee I can have someone support me. If I undo something that shouldn't have been undone, it is technology and it is software. I should be able to back it up and restore it to the last working point. For that matter, it should do that for me. If it doesn't, it isn't quite as mature a product as it should be. But my point remains, why can't I make decisions for myself as to how I want to use the product, how much of it I want to implement and manage on my own. There is always an authorized dealer available to support me at a fee. And yes, i'd be willing to pay a higher fee for them to fix something they didn't break. It is a risk I'd be willing to sign off on.

Point #2 - I've been told time and time again that there is no legitimate place for me to sell C4 brand components should I not want it anymore, choose to upgrade to something newer, decide to disinvest from the product offering for a variety of reasons I'm sure you could come up with. I'm told that C4 will not support a product purchased on Ebay or the like. So, other than the person that managed to get Pro in less than a legit way, who in the world is out there who would buy C4 product on the secondary market knowing the manfucturer won't support them? I've also spoken to more than one dealer who will not pick up a system whose components were purchased from a non-authorized C4 dealer (secondary market). So again, realizing that other than the owner of Pro through illegal means no one will buy C4 product I no longer want or need, I have no place to sell or trade up product if / when there is something more advanced that C4 sells. My home will have more than one control unit and more than several dozen dimmers, touch panels and other integration products. An 24" LCD monitor on my desk costs far less than a 7" LCD panel from C4 so I'm not likely to toss it aside for a new model with better features as quickly as I would the monitor on my desk. For that matter, the last time I did that I sold the pair of monitors on my desk and the new owner is very happy.

So thanks of the reminder of reality however, I again say this is a major investment. It is hardly a comparison to mass consumer products of which most could be sold on the open market and willingly supported by their manufacturer unlike what I've been told about C4. I also realize this forum and discussion is about C4 however, I know these concerns ring true throughout this industry. So far, the only reason I can see in support of my points above is to ensure a market and continuous revenue stream for their authorized dealers. I as others have discussed, strongly believe there is a happy middle ground that just refuses to be explored. I think I, and the like of many here are a small minority in their ability to do more than the average consumer. However, I think the average consumer technical knowledge and skill improves with every generation. I think there is an opportunity to harness revenue from those that would otherwise go the DIY route completely, something I really don't want to do. I continue to hope and watch though I'm getting closer having to make my platform decision as my home remodeling project is getting closer to the starting point. Honestly, C4 continues to be my lead choice but it is conversations of things such as Zigbee Pro and the like that bring me back to thinking about the limitations of the points I raised above.

Regards,

David

With technology, there is always something new on the horizon, an upgrade, a product in waiting and new standard, a reason to wait. That's why FUD is so powerful, it makes you hesitate and question your purchases. It's also a good reason why some companies don't pre-announce products.

Worrying about ZigBee Pro is a classic case of Paralysis by Analysis.

There is no reason to wait for ZigbeePro, all of the devices work well today, using the existing standard and implementation. Certainly there are improvements in the new standard but it really doesn't impact today's installations or planning. You install what is available and works today, and when they adopt Pro, you can evaluate if moving to the new standard is even worth it based on your installation.

I'm having a hard time grasping your "asset owner" issues, as the issues are same for virtually all purchases, especially tech.

If it's a new installation, then it should be all new equipment, covered under the generous (IMHO) 2 year warranty. You buy based on today's features and capabilites, so future enhancements are best efforts only, not guaranteed.

If they come out with something you want next year, then you add/update as needed to gain the features you want.

There is certainly a secondary market for used C4 products and a quick check reveals that many items sell for more than $0. Technology rarely gets better with age, so many used items are priced accordingly, especially devices with mechanical wear parts like Fans and Hard Drives.

Dealer trades are difficult but not impossible and you know going into the purchase that C4 sold only via dealers and serviced under those guidelines.

It's hard for a dealer to take trade-ins because it almost always negatively impacts profit and no dealer wants to install used gear and have to carry the burden of service on those items.

[dogdvr]

David,

There are options to go DIY and you will be able to change and tinker to your hearts content. But I see that you have stated that you don't want to go completely DIY and so are looking for some type of hybrid solution. I understand that but you are now at a crossroads. You can go full DIY or you can go "almost completely closed 'AMX, CRESTRON". Or you can choose to go with the most hybrid system out there on the market today.

As far as I know there is not another automation system with as many features that allows you to change programming like C4. I assume you have reviewed the options available to you and you feel that C4 might be best for you IF they just changed their minds about their business model and cater themselves to YOU. ( I know that there is a very vocal minority on this board that want this, but just for points sake lets stay here). What do you want that you cannot get from DIY route. Some professional help, with programming? or maybe someone that will be on call to come out and fix your problems? A fully staffed online call center that can log in a help you? Could you please be specific? (don't tell me the failures of C4, you have done that already) I am seriously asking why you don't want to go the DIY route?

[RyanE]

Whether the system is dealer-installed or not is only a single factor you will need to weigh in your decision. Ease-of-use, functionality, UI, Quality of your choice in dealer, etc. are all other factors.

If you can tolerate having the dealer install equipment, but you can then do the majority of the Automation programming and changes you want with ComposerHE, then Control4 may be for you.

If that's something you can't tolerate outright, then Control4 is at the moment not the system for you.

Like it or not, it *is* a dealer-installed system. That's how it was designed. Dealers like to warrant the whole system. They can warrant it because *they* did the wiring, *they* did the network, *they* did the programming. They like to make any physical changes to the system so they can ensure it is done correctly.

If you must do installation yourself, you're likely going to have to go the DIY route, which, although much more flexible, is also much less integrated and will be a more difficult process to get installed. That's completely your choice.

As far as your 'asset owner' issues, certainly any products that Control4 is currently selling, I can't imagine any of them not being firmware upgradeable to ZigbeePro. All the devices are designed to be field-upgraded by dealers.

1) You can backup your own Control4 system with ComposerME, ComposerHE, and your dealer can back it up with ComposerPro. The system itself does keep a backup of your project in case the main copy of the project is corrupted. As far as the system automatically restoring back to the latest 'working copy', the system has no idea whether the changes you've made have caused your TV to stop working, it's possible that you really *wanted* to delete the TV driver for some valid reason, so it's not likely that *any* system can do that fully automatically.

2) You certainly have valid points, which are pretty much valid with any 'dealer-installed' system. Control4's warranty is all handled through the dealer channel, so if you have no dealer, you have no recourse to handle the warranty. As others have said, dealers want to take on known entities, and if you bought your gear online somehow, the dealer has no way of knowing what shape it's in, etc.

RyanE

[ecschnei]

I love this forum and all the ideas on it. This is an incredibly powerful and customizable system.  I ask questions and for the most part get several points of view which empowers me as a consumer to ask my dealer the right questions.  There is so much that can be done with this equipment that you can't expect any one dealer to know all the available options and configurations.  Hardware is constantly evolving and drivers constantly improving and being created.  I like that I can educate myself but still have, AND PAY, for support with a dealer network.

*because I always have 2 cents to toss in the hat*

[Gary Leeds UK]

How did you even find that thread is 8 years Old !!!!

[ecschnei]

I'm digging deep into the forums plethora of knowledge. lol

[zaphod]

You mean, this isn't a new issue?  Shocked, I am.

The one thing that I would say on this is that it isn't really fair to say something like "Well you knew C4 was a dealer based system when you bought it so don't complain now".

You really don't fully understand where the DIY aspect stops unless you are up and running with the system and have played around with it for a bit.  I knew that I couldn't add hardware myself, so I assumed that means that I can't add a new controller or a new light switch.  I didn't think that meant that I couldn't do the programming myself when I swap out one DVD player for another.  Stuff like that you don't really get a food feel for until you lived with it for a bit.  And now you could argue that C4 is getting more DIY in some areas like the Alexa commands that you can do yourself on the web portal.

[msgreenf]

12 minutes ago, zaphod said:

swap out one DVD player for another.

how is that not adding new hardware?

[CFUG]

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense.  Before you can putz with Echo, you need the dealer to add the driver(s).  It's still adding new hardware and it still requires a dealer.  

[zaphod]

If you move the DVD player from your kitchento your bedroom it isn't adding hardware, it is moving around.

But before I owned the system my definition of adding hardware was adding C4 devices like dimmers, touchscreens or controllers.  Not third party devices that were just being controlled by C4 with IR - that is not much different than programming a smart remote which is trivial to do.  I still really wish I could do that on my own.  I don't mind futzing around for a bit, learning IR signals.  But I wish I didn't have to pay someone to do so. 

Can you not add your own Echo device to the system now?  I can't remember how that works and I started with the Epic systems driver.

[msgreenf]

If you move the DVD player from your kitchento your bedroom it isn't adding hardware, it is moving around.
But before I owned the system my definition of adding hardware was adding C4 devices like dimmers, touchscreens or controllers.  Not third party devices that were just being controlled by C4 with IR - that is not much different than programming a smart remote which is trivial to do.  I still really wish I could do that on my own.  I don't mind futzing around for a bit, learning IR signals.  But I wish I didn't have to pay someone to do so. 
Can you not add your own Echo device to the system now?  I can't remember how that works and I started with the Epic systems driver.

Putting hardware in a room that didn't have it before is adding. Doesn't matter if where it was before.

You don't add an echo to your system. You add the avs to your system

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[CFUG]

You certainly could add an echo (you can find the Echo Dot driver under My Drivers>CD) to the system if you intend to distribute that output.  Otherwise, you still need a dealer to add the Voice driver.  Moving a DVD around also could require CPro, I don't know as I haven't used Composer HE or whatever it's called.