Max Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Recognizing that I'm responding to a bit older comment by Ryan and knowing that the jedi master says C4 doesn't pre-announce products, etc. Is there a rough timeline for when we might see zigbee pro that perhaps I missed in another post. Is this something we might be seeing this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 yes its actually coming in 1.7.2 to be out in a few weeks, as posted here already (so I dont get in trouble for "leaking" info ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Uhm... No.1.7.2 is *not* the release with ZigbeePro in it.That much I'll leak. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 That's a bummer but I appreciate the small leak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Huh, there were some posts with "wait a couple weeks for polling to be addressed" along with "wait for 1.7.2 for Zigbee Pro" so... can't always believe what you read on the internet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Polling is indeed removed in 1.7.2, but that's unrelated to ZigbeePro.Trust me, you don't want ZigbeePro until it's ready to be released...RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 By all means, tell them to take their time with it Big E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Yeah, we don't want another fiasco like this whole "pollling incident".Just kidding. Control4, I love you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Control4, I love you!Apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 ^See what I mean, this Earth Hour thing can't be all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 If I happen to be driving at that hour, I will be sure to turn off my headlights!Heh.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickDolan Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 I understand all sides of this matter but I do not understand how if the customer screws up their system how it hurts Control4. Above you talk about how small the percentages of customers that want access to Pro but if you think about the amount of customers that are really going to go and scrap an entire project and create a website just to complain about C4 over calling a dealer to fix it that number would be less than .005%. Every one of those customers are going to call a dealer and you guys are going to make a ton of money and if you take a little longer than anticipated oh well it's because the customer screwed it up and they are not going to be as inclined to complain about the extra expense of fixing it. In my opinion the best solution if you really are concerned with us not being trained and feel that the amount of customers wanting Pro is so small than train us. Has Control4 ever considered offering a web based training course that can be taken at a customers leisure. Require us to go through the same 24 hours of training that dealers have to in order to purchase Composer Pro at least this way we can take the training at our leisure. With the web based training you can start a 9 hour course and pause it mid way so you can return to it in 3 days when you have the time. But even with this you are still going to have customers complaining about how they have to take 24 hours of training. For example I couldn't believe it when I read the reviews today as I was downloading the Iphone update which by the way is incredible and I wantd to say thanks for listening and updating it with full Rhapsody control. But if you read the reviews it is unbelievable that one customer after another is complaining about how Control4 is a rip off because they charge their customers for the app. I mean are you freaking kidding me, this app is incredible and allows us to control our entire system now from anywhere in our home with something that we have on us at all times being the Iphone. The other comlaint from numerous customers was that they were so pissed off that they couldn't use the app to control their entire house with no home automation system what so ever. So you want to control your lights with your Iphone and you think that there is a little green leprechaun that is going to jump out of your phone to go turn your lights on and off. This just shows how freaking stupid some people are but you know what you can't please everyone. But I don't think that the group of C4 customers that are intelligent enough to have Composer Pro is as small as you may think. You may want to at least keep an open mind to this idea. But the main other reason that I chose to go with C4 was the fact that all of the reviews I read stated that Control4 was the most DIY friendly and the most cost efficient. So to compare Crestron and Control4 is like comparing a Cadillac to a Ferrari. I can work on a Cadillac myself and change it's oil but I wouldn't even think about even changing the oil on a Ferrari. The Cadillac is still a great car and it allows me to work on it on my own but you don't buy a Ferrari with the intention of getting under the hood on Saturday morning and changing the ball joints. Adding a dimmer or keypad is something that anyone can handle on a Saturday morning though and if we receive the exact same training that dealers are required to attend I think that we can handle anything that Composer Pro has to offer. I understand that the majority of the dealers out there are extremely intelligent and are very experienced with Control4 and all A/V products but the truth is that there are many dealers that know less than the customers that are requesting Composer Pro. The C4 dealers even voice their concern about the amount of inexperienced dealers out there. So why is it that C4 is not worried about the dealers that have no idea what they are doing and are screwing up customers homes but they are so worried about us having Pro. At least if I screw up my house it's on me, but there are some dealers out there that do not have a clue what they are doing which in my opinion is opening C4 up to some major liability issues. The customers looking for this for the most part aren't just cheap, this is just a hobby of ours that we enjoy doing. We don't want to become a dealer becuase we have our own careers but I think if you offered us the opportunity to go through the same training that dealers do and allowed us to do it via web based courses I think this would be a perfect solution. Best Case scenario we all screw up our systems and the dealers are busier than ever, worst case scenario Control4 makes a ton of money on selling us all Composer Pro. This is a win win situation.I have posted my issues in the past with this forum and Pro being a constant issue and I still feel the same way if we all just argue with eachother about this we aren't accomplishing anything. But if we can come to a compromise like the one above I think that all parties involved will benefit. This is just a suggestion but ultimately no matter how we all feel this is Control4's decision and that is their right. But if we as customers voice our concerns in a productive fashion and provide them with suggestions hopefully they will alter their current rules to fit customers like us that want full control of our systems. Simply saying this is BS or that the answer is "NO" is not going to get anything done or make this issue go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOracle Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Personally, I would be very willing to use my frequent flier miles and hotel points to go to Utah to attend the training live. I agree with the PatrickDolan post and know I wouldn't go beyond the capabilites of the system. I have written more programs that are much more complicated than anything I could do with this.Please reconsider allowing this to be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Patrick Dolan - very well written post. My dealer is first and foremost and electrician and a very good one at that. He has done the C4 training but IMHO his knowledge when it comes to computers, programming and computer networking is very limited. I am an electrical engineer and I have been working with home computers since 1980 and PCs since 1984. With some training I think I am more than qualified to use Composer Pro and I would be very willing to do the type of training that you suggest. I don't know that I would install dimmers but installing stuff like outlet switches and A/V components would be within my sphere of expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Articulate post. Good to hear intelligent arguments.I've never argued that there aren't homeowners who are smart enough to have Pro. Of course there are. I don't think anyone can possibly know the size of the group that would want Pro, but as Control4 is sold as a Dealer-installed system, most people expect that the dealer will be handling the 'Pro' side of things.Your biggest problem is that the audience on this forum does not consist *at all* of people who can make the decision to change this policy, and the people who could make that decision (Control4 execs) are more interested in growing the company through the traditional CE (dealer) channel. I think they have to be focused on doing what's going to be the best and most profitable for the company, because, in the end, if Control4 doesn't survive because Control4 loses the dealer channel, that's not good for anyone.I personally think the biggest argument against Control4 doing something like this is that most dealers *want* to have continuing contact with their customers. They want install software that is for dealers only, and unfortunately, they're the target audience for the software Control4 currently produces. Some dealers were initially against ComposerHE, although I think that dealers now can see that HE is a net benefit to them for the customers who want that functionality.It's certainly possible that *some* end users having ComposerPro would also be a net benefit, but that's a *much* larger leap for dealers and/or Control4 to take.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOracle Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Ryan - I understand your view of the issue. As you can tell by a large number of the posts, many think of Control4 as DIY. If you look at it from the standpoint where minor changes to connections require a dealer, it no longer is DIY. From my perspective, I'd be much more likely to buy additional equipment from my dealer were it not for the fact that I also have to have them charge me for the connections. I really think Control4 is missing out on a number of sales because of this. But, only my personal opinion.Jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbstive Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I understand all sides of this matter but I do not understand how if the customer screws up their system how it hurts Control4. Above you talk about how small the percentages of customers that want access to Pro but if you think about the amount of customers that are really going to go and scrap an entire project and create a website just to complain about C4 over calling a dealer to fix it that number would be less than .005%. Every one of those customers are going to call a dealer and you guys are going to make a ton of money and if you take a little longer than anticipated oh well it's because the customer screwed it up and they are not going to be as inclined to complain about the extra expense of fixing it. In my opinion the best solution if you really are concerned with us not being trained and feel that the amount of customers wanting Pro is so small than train us. Has Control4 ever considered offering a web based training course that can be taken at a customers leisure. Require us to go through the same 24 hours of training that dealers have to in order to purchase Composer Pro at least this way we can take the training at our leisure. With the web based training you can start a 9 hour course and pause it mid way so you can return to it in 3 days when you have the time. But even with this you are still going to have customers complaining about how they have to take 24 hours of training. For example I couldn't believe it when I read the reviews today as I was downloading the Iphone update which by the way is incredible and I wantd to say thanks for listening and updating it with full Rhapsody control. But if you read the reviews it is unbelievable that one customer after another is complaining about how Control4 is a rip off because they charge their customers for the app. I mean are you freaking kidding me, this app is incredible and allows us to control our entire system now from anywhere in our home with something that we have on us at all times being the Iphone. The other comlaint from numerous customers was that they were so pissed off that they couldn't use the app to control their entire house with no home automation system what so ever. So you want to control your lights with your Iphone and you think that there is a little green leprechaun that is going to jump out of your phone to go turn your lights on and off. This just shows how freaking stupid some people are but you know what you can't please everyone. But I don't think that the group of C4 customers that are intelligent enough to have Composer Pro is as small as you may think. You may want to at least keep an open mind to this idea. But the main other reason that I chose to go with C4 was the fact that all of the reviews I read stated that Control4 was the most DIY friendly and the most cost efficient. So to compare Crestron and Control4 is like comparing a Cadillac to a Ferrari. I can work on a Cadillac myself and change it's oil but I wouldn't even think about even changing the oil on a Ferrari. The Cadillac is still a great car and it allows me to work on it on my own but you don't buy a Ferrari with the intention of getting under the hood on Saturday morning and changing the ball joints. Adding a dimmer or keypad is something that anyone can handle on a Saturday morning though and if we receive the exact same training that dealers are required to attend I think that we can handle anything that Composer Pro has to offer. I understand that the majority of the dealers out there are extremely intelligent and are very experienced with Control4 and all A/V products but the truth is that there are many dealers that know less than the customers that are requesting Composer Pro. The C4 dealers even voice their concern about the amount of inexperienced dealers out there. So why is it that C4 is not worried about the dealers that have no idea what they are doing and are screwing up customers homes but they are so worried about us having Pro. At least if I screw up my house it's on me, but there are some dealers out there that do not have a clue what they are doing which in my opinion is opening C4 up to some major liability issues. The customers looking for this for the most part aren't just cheap, this is just a hobby of ours that we enjoy doing. We don't want to become a dealer becuase we have our own careers but I think if you offered us the opportunity to go through the same training that dealers do and allowed us to do it via web based courses I think this would be a perfect solution. Best Case scenario we all screw up our systems and the dealers are busier than ever, worst case scenario Control4 makes a ton of money on selling us all Composer Pro. This is a win win situation.I have posted my issues in the past with this forum and Pro being a constant issue and I still feel the same way if we all just argue with eachother about this we aren't accomplishing anything. But if we can come to a compromise like the one above I think that all parties involved will benefit. This is just a suggestion but ultimately no matter how we all feel this is Control4's decision and that is their right. But if we as customers voice our concerns in a productive fashion and provide them with suggestions hopefully they will alter their current rules to fit customers like us that want full control of our systems. Simply saying this is BS or that the answer is "NO" is not going to get anything done or make this issue go away.Ditto !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mduer2009 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hello Ryan E,Can you let us know any other info about Zigbee Pro??Cheers,M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 No. I'm not the right person to discuss that, as I'm not involved in that work at all.Sorry.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteinyD Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I know we probably don't want to take this thread away from its intended topic and as indicated in the thread I have strong opinions about this from a consumer perspective as well. However I was not aware of Zigbee 'Pro' until mentioned here. I just did a very quick google search and came across this -http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=202401851The indication is that Zigbee Pro was ratified in 2007. As I'm just aware of this and will do further research, I assume it implies there are additional features, functionality and standards associated with it. Via the few messages in this thread about it, it would appear that Control4 has not adopted the Zigbee Pro standard in their products? If not, I'm concerned for their ability to keep up with the changing technology if this has now been around for almost 18 months. And secondly, if and when they adopt it, will this mean reinvestment in replacement installed product in order to benefit or just a firmware upgrade for light control, controllers and the like?One of the concerns for the tight reign this industry and C4 has in addition to the lack of full control the asset owner has is the lack of a valid secondary market for product when an asset owner wishes to upgrade in order to take advantage of new features or is no longer interested in the asset. From all I have read, most dealers will not take product back in trade and C4 will not honor service (out of agreement or in agreement) for anything sold on the open market that wasn't sold by an authorized dealer. That would seem to make the cost of ownership over the long run quite high as I would literally need to throw a generationally outdated piece of C4 gear away as it has 0 resale value after purchase.Has C4 made any statement in regard to their intended support of Zigbee Pro and what it means to the installed base of products when they do?I'm still not a C4 customer as we are currently planning a home renovation project of which I hope C4 is a part of it. But this thread's discussion always has me step back and rethink my home control intentions.DavidHello Ryan E,Can you let us know any other info about Zigbee Pro??Cheers,M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdvr Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I think you will find that one of the reason's C4 has not done this yet, is that they are making sure that ALL equptment in the field will be able to update to pro.Now, no one knows if everything will be able to update, and anyone who does know will not give their opinion on this board.It is an un announced product, and therefore we can not provide you with answers right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteinyD Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Has there been any statement of commitment from C4 to its dealers or prospective customers as to their support for Zigbee Pro at any time in the forseeable future? Certainly before making the investment I'd be interested in some form of infromation regarding their roadmap. I realize they don't want to reveal their hand to their competitors but this is an investment and any consumer should have similar questions / concerns.I think you will find that one of the reason's C4 has not done this yet, is that they are making sure that ALL equptment in the field will be able to update to pro.Now, no one knows if everything will be able to update, and anyone who does know will not give their opinion on this board.It is an un announced product, and therefore we can not provide you with answers right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Here's my thoughts on zigbee pro. My lights work perfect now. If they get better (how could they?) that's great. If they stay the same, that's great too. That being said, I haven't read up on Zigbee Pro at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Has there been any statement of commitment from C4 to its dealers or prospective customers as to their support for Zigbee Pro at any time in the forseeable future? Certainly before making the investment I'd be interested in some form of infromation regarding their roadmap. I realize they don't want to reveal their hand to their competitors but this is an investment and any consumer should have similar questions / concerns.Yes, Control4 was a founding member of the Zigbee Standards boards, and still has members on those boards. Control4 employees have helped design what the Home Automation profile of ZigbeePro will and will not have. Control4 understands Zigbee quite well, and have always stated that ZigbeePro is certainly something Control4 will support when the time is right.The reason Control4's devices aren't currently ZigbeePro is that Control4 started selling dimmers and the like in 2005, before there was a Home Automation profile, and there were no standards as to what a 'Zigbee Dimmer' should do.Control4 *currently* manufactures, sells, and supports ZigbeePro devices in their Hospitality installations (hotels and the like), and ZigbeePro devices are working in some very large installations with virtually no problems.As stated in a previous post, one of the reasons Control4 is taking it slow on releasing ZigbeePro in the residential market is that there are a *LOT* of existing dimmers, switches, keypads, and the like in the field, and this could be a huge liability if they don't all get updated properly. ZigbeePro is not just a new set of protocols, it's an entire new networking stack, and if you have a lot of devices that are communicating down the line to some other devices, and you update the 'middle' ones, you could abandon those furthest away. That would be bad.I don't know if 100% of devices will be supported on the ZigbeePro stack. Older controllers such as the HTC and MC, as well as v.1 remotes, etc. may or may not be supported on Control4's ZigbeePro stack, but I'm pretty darn sure that dimmers will be on the *supported* list...RyanEEdited for clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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