Basics of C4 Lighting

[anon2828]

Boy, I was really not trying to start any type of argument.  Just providing an alternative view.  And yes, for the most part.  We attempted to be "smart" about what we hid in the closets such that they were not the main loads for the room, but things like outdoor lights or aux lighting throughout the house.    Again, it works for us, and the main point really wasn't that which you are commenting on above.

[SMHarman]

Boy, I was really not trying to start any type of argument.  Just providing an alternative view.  And yes, for the most part.  We attempted to be "smart" about what we hid in the closets such that they were not the main loads for the room, but things like outdoor lights or aux lighting throughout the house.    Again, it works for us, and the main point really wasn't that which you are commenting on above.

But the conversation to new buyer of turn the outside lights on with the switch in the kids bedroom closet is kinda ummn

[ILoveC4]

How did you handle those large 3-4-5 gangs of light dimmers in your new home 

Like this. My engraved keypads should be here next week.


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[JSTRONG]

Looks good with those c4 covers. I still prefer just a single or double  keypad , but looks good there. 

[ILoveC4]

Looks good with those c4 covers. I still prefer just a single or double  keypad , but looks good there. 

Sure - 1 and 2 gang are better, but this isn’t bad. I have a few 4 gang, probably a half dozen or more 3 gang. Lots of 2 gang


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[Crustyloafer]

This entire thread is just a mess in the making. We have:

1) End user supplying their own C4 hardware, so will be used and possibly old and likely to be unsupported on future OS releases as well as having no warranty. 
 

2) A dealer willing to work with said end user supplying their own used kit and advising them against best practices by suggesting multiple keypad dimmers/switches hidden out of sight is the best way to condense control of multiple loads and have just a single keypad visible in the rooms. 
 

3) An end user asking for advice on here about best practices, been given correct best practice advice by most, ie panelised is the best solution with a large number of loads and a new build, and then still choosing to argue against it because they can buy their own cheaper/used keypad dimmers from eBay or similar. 
 

In my mind, both the end user and the dealer have made their bed, now let them sleep in it. Good luck to you both. 

[rf9000]

5 hours ago, Crustyloafer said:

This entire thread is just a mess in the making. We have:

1) End user supplying their own C4 hardware, so will be used and possibly old and likely to be unsupported on future OS releases as well as having no warranty. 
 

2) A dealer willing to work with said end user supplying their own used kit and advising them against best practices by suggesting multiple keypad dimmers/switches hidden out of sight is the best way to condense control of multiple loads and have just a single keypad visible in the rooms. 
 

3) An end user asking for advice on here about best practices, been given correct best practice advice by most, ie panelised is the best solution with a large number of loads and a new build, and then still choosing to argue against it because they can buy their own cheaper/used keypad dimmers from eBay or similar. 
 

In my mind, both the end user and the dealer have made their bed, now let them sleep in it. Good luck to you both. 

What a terrible  response. You HAVE to be a dealer (no offense to the dealers on here that are actually helpful). So tell me, the dimmers and switches that I have that are brand new in the box, are the ones you sell better than these? Like are the special in some way? Man, that response irritates me. Just because someone wants to buy there own equipment, and you can't make money off them for every single device, this is your response? And just because a dealer will work with a client and let them source some of there own equipment, pull wires, etc., this is your response? My dealer is great this way. I actually have a business  with employess and my guys are pulling all the wire based upon what the dealer has laid out. Then we are providing most of the equipment, which is all brand new by the way, and the dealer is installing and programming. I know this would probably not work for you because you couldn't nickel and dime for everything, but its our arrangement and its going to work out well. We have done it several times before.

[rf9000]

20 hours ago, SMHarman said:

20 hours ago, anon2828 said:

Boy, I was really not trying to start any type of argument.  Just providing an alternative view.  And yes, for the most part.  We attempted to be "smart" about what we hid in the closets such that they were not the main loads for the room, but things like outdoor lights or aux lighting throughout the house.    Again, it works for us, and the main point really wasn't that which you are commenting on above.

But the conversation to new buyer of turn the outside lights on with the switch in the kids bedroom closet is kinda ummn

Lets just look at the main level.The main level is 6000 square feet. There are three locations where we were looking to hide switches. So in those three locations, we would use these panelized modules instead? While keeping everything else the same? Then all wiring loads (romex) for the light they are controlling get wired to these locations. Then these modules get connected to the LAN and that is it? And in this setup  we can still use the regular APDs, KPDs, and SWs?

[rf9000]

21 hours ago, RAV said:

The module is the equivalent of 8 APD, all in one device.
Rather than 8 APDs stuffed in 2 Four gang boxes, and tucked in a closet causing zigbee storms, you know have one module on the LAN, placed where ever it makes sense, often in the utility room.

Panelized doesn't mean you have to wire the whole house, or that you can't still use wireless lighting (KPD, APD, SW).
As I stated earlier, much earlier, use KPD for the main load in each room. Put the accent lighting and landscape and leftovers on Panelized. Panelized makes sense when there's more than a handful of leftovers.

Panelized simple solves the hidding of switches in closets. It solves homes with communication problems, since it's not wireless it's all on the LAN and keypad bus. It's convenient for landscape and accent lighting when there's transformers for the loads. It's clean wiring, it's often less wiring, and less copper. And if there's concerns with wireless signals in a home for medical or whatever, then there isn't any, it's can be all wired communications. BUT it DOESN'T have to be all panelized either.

Bare with me here. All in all, after looking at this, are we not doing the exact thing as hiding dimmers in a closet, but just hiding a panel instead? Its not like with panelized lighting that if someone wanted to back to conventional lighting they ever could. So it really seems like the only difference between this just trying to eliminate "Zigbee storm" or any interference? My dealer says that panelized vs. hiding the actual dimmers/switches is kinda the same idea, just it is a less expensive way of doing it. They also say we do not have hidden switches all over the house, just limited to three locations where you would probably put the panel modules anyways. With panel you could just make one location instead of three, but what they are saying is technically correct, right?

[JSTRONG]

I know lots of control4 dealers that would answer yes to that question. They both eliminate wall clutter.  But if you have 3 dedicated closets or areas with the loads ran to then, by all means. Install centralized module. I don’t think your saving money unless your talking about installing clusters of cheaper third party wireless dimmers. 

[JSTRONG]

And centralized lighting in many large homes could have centralized panels all over. Not just one location. 

[ILoveC4]

Bare with me here. All in all, after looking at this, are we not doing the exact thing as hiding dimmers in a closet, but just hiding a panel instead? Its not like with panelized lighting that if someone wanted to back to conventional lighting they ever could. So it really seems like the only difference between this just trying to eliminate "Zigbee storm" or any interference? My dealer says that panelized vs. hiding the actual dimmers/switches is kinda the same idea, just it is a less expensive way of doing it. They also say we do not have hidden switches all over the house, just limited to three locations where you would probably put the panel modules anyways. With panel you could just make one location instead of three, but what they are saying is technically correct, right?

The difference is that if the controller is offline or something, the keypads still work. With your hidden configuration, they don’t. Plus you won’t have a bunch of dimmers and switches oddly stuff in a closet somewhere.

It’s just a bad idea. I’m guessing if your dealer is saying it’s the same he’s never actually done it.


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[msgreenf]

Is there really a purpose of this thread? If you already bought hardware...

[ILoveC4]

In fact, thinking through this, I’d be shocked if this passed inspection. Lights are a life and safety thing. I can’t imagine an inspector just being okay hearing “oh, those will work later after we get a chance to install the controller and program them”.


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[Crustyloafer]

2 hours ago, rf9000 said:

What a terrible  response. You HAVE to be a dealer (no offense to the dealers on here that are actually helpful). So tell me, the dimmers and switches that I have that are brand new in the box, are the ones you sell better than these? Like are the special in some way? Man, that response irritates me. Just because someone wants to buy there own equipment, and you can't make money off them for every single device, this is your response? And just because a dealer will work with a client and let them source some of there own equipment, pull wires, etc., this is your response? My dealer is great this way. I actually have a business  with employess and my guys are pulling all the wire based upon what the dealer has laid out. Then we are providing most of the equipment, which is all brand new by the way, and the dealer is installing and programming. I know this would probably not work for you because you couldn't nickel and dime for everything, but its our arrangement and its going to work out well. We have done it several times before.

My question would be, where are you sourcing all this “brand new” equipment other than from another dealer?
 

 

[rf9000]

31 minutes ago, Crustyloafer said:

My question would be, where are you sourcing all this “brand new” equipment other than from another dealer?
 

 

Because its less expensive. I literally bought a dealer that was shutting its doors. Does it matter to you where I'm getting my equipment? I have it and doesnt really pertain much to this thread.

[rf9000]

2 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Is there really a purpose of this thread? If you already bought hardware...

Yes, because I can sell the hardware if needed. Opposed to the one comment on here suggesting that everything should be bought new from the dealer as the only way things will work, there is a very large market for these items so they will sell easy. If I need to sell a bunch of dimmers to move to panelized, I can do that. I think in my mind, I'm not familair with panelized so it worries me to make sure I'm doing it all correctly. My dealer has done panelized and they are not against it. They will do that too. They just say that in our area it is not common and they usually just hide dimmers/switches instead to save money, make it easier for electricians, etc.

[JSTRONG]

Hey rf , head over to the control4 forum you will get great assistance there.  And many control4 techs are there Helping as well. You own that c4 dealership then you or your programmers have login. 

[rf9000]

2 hours ago, ILoveC4 said:

In fact, thinking through this, I’d be shocked if this passed inspection. Lights are a life and safety thing. I can’t imagine an inspector just being okay hearing “oh, those will work later after we get a chance to install the controller and program them”.


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We have visited with multiple electricians in our area and they all have worked with our dealer and install this way all the time. But all in all, I'm really not advocating for one over the other, I just want to make the right decision. I'm familiar with the C4 lighting now and understand hiding hardware. The panelized would be a new learning curve. For instance, these 8 dimmer modules seem to be what I need from what has been provided here for information. But do Switches also work with these modules? What do I all need for extra equipment up and above what I have now? For instance I have three locations of hidden hardware. Do I put a panel in each of those locations? Or do I centralize one panel now and have all of these 3 hidden locations combined  to one hidden location with one box and all modules inside?

[SMHarman]

This entire thread is just a mess in the making. We have:
1) End user supplying their own C4 hardware, so will be used and possibly old and likely to be unsupported on future OS releases as well as having no warranty. 
 
2) A dealer willing to work with said end user supplying their own used kit and advising them against best practices by suggesting multiple keypad dimmers/switches hidden out of sight is the best way to condense control of multiple loads and have just a single keypad visible in the rooms. 
 
3) An end user asking for advice on here about best practices, been given correct best practice advice by most, ie panelised is the best solution with a large number of loads and a new build, and then still choosing to argue against it because they can buy their own cheaper/used keypad dimmers from eBay or similar. 
 
In my mind, both the end user and the dealer have made their bed, now let them sleep in it. Good luck to you both. 

Yep

My question would be, where are you sourcing all this “brand new” equipment other than from another dealer?
 
 

Please tell where we can get BNIB lighting hardware cheaper than a dealer?

Is there really a purpose of this thread? If you already bought hardware...

Indeed like a train wreck

Bare with me here. All in all, after looking at this, are we not doing the exact thing as hiding dimmers in a closet, but just hiding a panel instead? Its not like with panelized lighting that if someone wanted to back to conventional lighting they ever could. So it really seems like the only difference between this just trying to eliminate "Zigbee storm" or any interference? My dealer says that panelized vs. hiding the actual dimmers/switches is kinda the same idea, just it is a less expensive way of doing it. They also say we do not have hidden switches all over the house, just limited to three locations where you would probably put the panel modules anyways. With panel you could just make one location instead of three, but what they are saying is technically correct, right?

Some would say it's the same. Some would say it's going to cause problems and go against C4 design.

Also, you are custom building a 6,000 sq ft house and complaining about $1,000 price differences on lighting. If yiu want a C4 install here yiu should be putting 5-10% of build cost into tech. Some of that moves from electrical and other budgets.

Lets just look at the main level.The main level is 6000 square feet. There are three locations where we were looking to hide switches. So in those three locations, we would use these panelized modules instead? While keeping everything else the same? Then all wiring loads (romex) for the light they are controlling get wired to these locations. Then these modules get connected to the LAN and that is it? And in this setup  we can still use the regular APDs, KPDs, and SWs?

How many hidden loads.
How many floors.
How is this 6000 ft distributed.
Still trying to help but drip fed info makes this a tough thread.

[rf9000]

1 minute ago, SMHarman said:

YepPlease tell where we can get BNIB lighting hardware cheaper than a dealer?Indeed like a train wreck Some would say it's the same. Some would say it's going to cause problems and go against C4 design.

Also, you are custom building a 6,000 sq ft house and complaining about $1,000 price differences on lighting. If yiu want a C4 install here yiu should be putting 5-10% of build cost into tech. Some of that moves from electrical and other budgets. How many hidden loads.
How many floors.
How is this 6000 ft distributed.
Still trying to help but drip fed info makes this a tough thread.
 

Currently, the hidden loads consist of a combined 19 APDs (this could go to 24) and 2 SWs. There are two floors to the residence. 6000 on main and 2200 upper level.

[SMHarman]

Currently, the hidden loads consist of a combined 19 APDs (this could go to 24) and 2 SWs. There are two floors to the residence. 6000 on main and 2200 upper level.

So depending on distance from load to panel would be best with a single panel 5 section. With 3x8 dimmer packs. That will save yiu the cost of one tin box

Or two. One location with 8 or fewer and one with 16 or fewer in 2 X 2 panels.

If all these are secondary loads then all the switches and hardware yiu have for rooms remains. They just activate scenes with the secondary loads.

Also they will activate the primary load, regardless of if the controller is on line.

You just bought a dealer. Congratulations. Panel lighting is great. Use this home to learn so you can sell it effectively. You'll like it.

[rf9000]

1 hour ago, SMHarman said:

So depending on distance from load to panel would be best with a single panel 5 section. With 3x8 dimmer packs. That will save yiu the cost of one tin box

Or two. One location with 8 or fewer and one with 16 or fewer in 2 X 2 panels.

If all these are secondary loads then all the switches and hardware yiu have for rooms remains. They just activate scenes with the secondary loads.

Also they will activate the primary load, regardless of if the controller is on line.

You just bought a dealer. Congratulations. Panel lighting is great. Use this home to learn so you can sell it effectively. You'll like it.

So technically, the majority of the APD dimmers would not be needed because the modules take the place of the APD dimmers, is this correct?  For example, lets say there are 5 loads in the Master bath. The plan before was to have a single KPD located in Master bath for load 1, then in the Master Closet have one APD for load 2, one APD for load 3, one SW for load 4 (bath fan),  one APD for load 5. In the panelized lighting plan, we would still have one KPD located in Master Bath for load 1, and then loads 2-5 would be handled by the module and all the other APDs or SWs are not needed? Also, can the module be programmed to have some of the channels utilize either dimmer or switch? I see its called the dimmer module so wondering if a regular switch can be used with it too.

[ILoveC4]

So technically, the majority of the APD dimmers would not be needed because the modules take the place of the APD dimmers, is this correct?  For example, lets say there are 5 loads in the Master bath. The plan before was to have a single KPD located in Master bath for load 1, then in the Master Closet have one APD for load 2, one APD for load 3, one SW for load 4 (bath fan),  one APD for load 5. In the panelized lighting plan, we would still have one KPD located in Master Bath for load 1, and then loads 2-5 would be handled by the module and all the other APDs or SWs are not needed? Also, can the module be programmed to have some of the channels utilize either dimmer or switch? I see its called the dimmer module so wondering if a regular switch can be used with it too.

With panelized lighting the “dimmers” are in the panel and all that is about the house is wired keypads.


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[ILoveC4]

Here’s the other thing. I promise you’ll want more buttons than you think you want right now. Wire it regular. Gives you more options.

That’s my last comment here.


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