DYI'er looking at moving from Z-Wave to C4

[turtle2472]

Hello everyone I'm new here and have been reading through the forum and gathered a fair bit of information.  I'm a server/network admin by trade and geek/tinker by hobby.  For years now I have invested in a Z-wave/Alarm.com automation solution for my home but have been frustrated by a number of things with that system. 

I've recently moved and did not bring most of the Z-wave modules with me since they are wired into the fans/walls.  This gives me a chance to start fresh.  I've contacted the closes C4 deal to me but am still waiting to hear back after more than a month with a couple of back and forth emails with their salesman.

I've gathered that with C4 either I become a dealer and heavily invest in the training or I let my local pro do the work. So one of my questions is how difficult is it to do things like add additional light switches?  Maybe window blind controls?  If I go with C4 am I really going to have to pay my local pro to do all the physical work?  

When it came to the old Z-wave system I got the code from the installer to my panel and was able to add/remove devices and integrations at will.  Is it all or nothing with C4?  Can the install be done in phases?

One of the biggest reasons I'm looking at C4 is that my wife had a hard time with scenes in the Alarm.com app.  Basically she is the exact opposite of me and hates tech, she's an artist.  C4 seems to make things a whole lot simpler for her.  We want to control lights, shades, thermostats, and at some point our media room.  I use Plex for my media library and Sonos for our home audio. Currently using Unifi for networking and VMs running in a couple of ESXi hosts, Plex Media Server being one of them.

The second big concern I have is security and privacy.  My wife's big question is how hackable is C4?  I haven't looked into the papers on it, but am curious of how much of the home's data is feed outside of my home be to ti C4 corp or other third party companies.  I like having my surveillance be closed circuit and not part of the alarm system.  Basically, I don't want anyone else being able to see the footage/feed from the cameras and am wondering if C4 allows it to be done even if "no one ever looks".  I had a Skybell at my old place and hated every minute of it. I won't add Google or Alexa into my home so I'm going to "miss out" on the voice control functions unless Siri is integrated in some way. 

Anyway, I have way more questions and likely all would be answered if my dealer actually contacted me back with a sales pitch.   At this point, I'd rather do my own searching.

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Hi pal

Nice to have you on board!

Alot of people on this forum do majority of the wiring, cabling and installing light switches themselves and then getting remote programmers like myself (shameless plug) to add them into the system and program them up how you want, its pretty straight forward. 

you can find some great deals on new and used hardware on this forum and on the likes of ebay too

The install can be done in phases, its not an issue. 

Plex integrates really nicely into control4 with this driver (https://drivercentral.io/platforms/control4-drivers/audio-video/plex-full-control4-driver-chowmain/)

over the years control4 has put alot of attention and money into security and privacy, if someone like myself was to log in we would be unable to view cameras from the software control4 block this even for dealers too. 

in terms of "hackability", anything is hackable... majority of your data is kept locally with the exception of drivers that use a cloud based api. There are many instances of control4 systems in cooperate configurations that don't have access to the www and they all work great too. You could always add in firewall rules for this, and then if you wanted a dealer to log in, you can disable the firewall rule temporarily. If you did this, know that services like Tidal, Spotify etc wont work. Control4 used to use the same SSH password for everything with the latest release this has now been changed (i think its now auto generated with an algorithm and specific to every controller) and even us as dealers dont know what it is, so if we do need to SSH we have to do it via composer. 

Hope this helps you

Thanks 

M

[turtle2472]

Cool.  Thanks for the info.  

How does Control4 handle an actual alarm system?  Every time I check out security all I see are cameras.  What about actual monitored alarm systems?

For buying the hardware, what would be recommended for a system like I described?  I'm not very familiar and did see there is a CA-1 that can handle Z-wave now.  Thing is I don't specifically want Z-wave but I'm familiar with it so I tend to gravitate to it.  I'm also guessing it won't handle my homes future needs given I want to be able to control 50 switches upstairs and about as many in my basement.  Some are fans and many are 3-way.

I also saw that the touch panels aren't necessary but better for intercom and such.  I would want at least a few of those, though we all have iOS devices and can install the app on them too.  Part of the appeal of C4 is my kids being able to access the scene controls and such.

When I figure out how I want to handle the media/theater room then I'll be adding it in too.  I have a Playbar for it now but still trying to figure out if I want a projector or flash screen TV instead.

 

Edit: Feel free to message me directly if you can't post actual costs online.  I think I read somewhere that you aren't supposed to or something like that.  Maybe links to listings on eBay/Amazon etc..?

[WholeHomeControl]

12 hours ago, turtle2472 said:

How does Control4 handle an actual alarm system?  Every time I check out security all I see are cameras.  What about actual monitored alarm systems?

If the alarm system has a Control4 driver - and there are many that do - then you can control and monitor the alarm system through Control4 (via the GUI and/or programmatically.)

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Cool.  Thanks for the info.  
How does Control4 handle an actual alarm system?  Every time I check out security all I see are cameras.  What about actual monitored alarm systems?
For buying the hardware, what would be recommended for a system like I described?  I'm not very familiar and did see there is a CA-1 that can handle Z-wave now.  Thing is I don't specifically want Z-wave but I'm familiar with it so I tend to gravitate to it.  I'm also guessing it won't handle my homes future needs given I want to be able to control 50 switches upstairs and about as many in my basement.  Some are fans and many are 3-way.
I also saw that the touch panels aren't necessary but better for intercom and such.  I would want at least a few of those, though we all have iOS devices and can install the app on them too.  Part of the appeal of C4 is my kids being able to access the scene controls and such.
When I figure out how I want to handle the media/theater room then I'll be adding it in too.  I have a Playbar for it now but still trying to figure out if I want a projector or flash screen TV instead.
 
Edit: Feel free to message me directly if you can't post actual costs online.  I think I read somewhere that you aren't supposed to or something like that.  Maybe links to listings on eBay/Amazon etc..?

Hi pal,

Sorry I missed your reply back

Will PM you in the morning if that’s okay

Thanks
M


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RAV]

1.  Look for another dealer

2. There is a user handicapped version of the programming software. You can't add parts on your own to the software, a dealer has to do that. But other programming is available to you. Composer Home Edition.

3. Very secure platform. The system checks into Control4's servers once a day to update DNS information to allow for remote connections. The app and dealer remote programming are done through VPN. Through their portal you have control over dealer remote access as well.

4. Lighting ETC from Control4 are zigbee. You'd likely need more than one processor in the end, but you can build in stages. Don't try and skimp on processor power, buy based on the end system.

Your key to success will be find a dealer willing to work with you. Sounds like your dealer is busy and brushing off a DIY. Doesn't make him a bad dealer, each is different in their sales and approach. But DIY clients tend to eat time, so setting expectations is key.

[AK1]

On 6/6/2020 at 12:03 PM, turtle2472 said:

Hello everyone I'm new here and have been reading through the forum and gathered a fair bit of information.  I'm a server/network admin by trade and geek/tinker by hobby.  For years now I have invested in a Z-wave/Alarm.com automation solution for my home but have been frustrated by a number of things with that system. 

I've recently moved and did not bring most of the Z-wave modules with me since they are wired into the fans/walls.  This gives me a chance to start fresh.  I've contacted the closes C4 deal to me but am still waiting to hear back after more than a month with a couple of back and forth emails with their salesman.

I've gathered that with C4 either I become a dealer and heavily invest in the training or I let my local pro do the work. So one of my questions is how difficult is it to do things like add additional light switches?  Maybe window blind controls?  If I go with C4 am I really going to have to pay my local pro to do all the physical work?  

When it came to the old Z-wave system I got the code from the installer to my panel and was able to add/remove devices and integrations at will.  Is it all or nothing with C4?  Can the install be done in phases?

One of the biggest reasons I'm looking at C4 is that my wife had a hard time with scenes in the Alarm.com app.  Basically she is the exact opposite of me and hates tech, she's an artist.  C4 seems to make things a whole lot simpler for her.  We want to control lights, shades, thermostats, and at some point our media room.  I use Plex for my media library and Sonos for our home audio. Currently using Unifi for networking and VMs running in a couple of ESXi hosts, Plex Media Server being one of them.

The second big concern I have is security and privacy.  My wife's big question is how hackable is C4?  I haven't looked into the papers on it, but am curious of how much of the home's data is feed outside of my home be to ti C4 corp or other third party companies.  I like having my surveillance be closed circuit and not part of the alarm system.  Basically, I don't want anyone else being able to see the footage/feed from the cameras and am wondering if C4 allows it to be done even if "no one ever looks".  I had a Skybell at my old place and hated every minute of it. I won't add Google or Alexa into my home so I'm going to "miss out" on the voice control functions unless Siri is integrated in some way. 

Anyway, I have way more questions and likely all would be answered if my dealer actually contacted me back with a sales pitch.   At this point, I'd rather do my own searching.

Where are you located? It seems like you're a good candidate for remote dealer support.

[AK1]

On 6/20/2020 at 10:33 AM, RAV said:

Your key to success will be find a dealer willing to work with you. Sounds like your dealer is busy and brushing off a DIY. Doesn't make him a bad dealer, each is different in their sales and approach. But DIY clients tend to eat time, so setting expectations is key.

Yep. Working with DIY clients tends to be way more interesting for the dealer. While they may ask lots of questions, they don't bog you down with basic stuff like how to access the App Store which for some clients represents a. challenge -)

[turtle2472]

I actually found a dealer who is local that will be willing to work with me.  He is actually going to be moving onto the same street I live on once his house is built!

I was very candid with the guy when he came to my house and spoke with my wife and I.  We even had the clear understanding of things I might do that would "offend" him and a DYI guy and he has been told to tell me when/if I offend him.

He REALLY doesn't want me buying hardware and just having him install it.  He is totally cool with remotely integrating though.  Kinda weird way to go about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He did mention the home edition thing.  

I'm going to have to see how this pans out though.  My wife needs to be able to call someone if I'm not available.  She doesn't want me hacking together a system that no one will be able to figure out and not be able to do anything with it unless I'm the one doing it.  I totally get that so I'm really going to try to make it brainless for all of us.  I just need to make sure we have the right system from the start as we build, not something that is going to require upgrades and replacing hardware because I outgrew it.

[turls]

8 minutes ago, turtle2472 said:

He REALLY doesn't want me buying hardware and just having him install it.  He is totally cool with remotely integrating though.  Kinda weird way to go about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

What's weird about that?  Why would he want to install random stuff that may or may not work from Ebay?

But that's also how the dealer makes ends meet--the margin on the hardware.  it isn't enough to just get the labor payments for the job...

[turtle2472]

I get not wanting to put his name on eBay hardware.  If I buy one or two switches at a time and have him install them he would make more on the labor than markup on the devices.  Now the thermostats, I'm sure he made some cash on those since I bought 6 from him and he didn't even install them.  I had my HVAC system reworked and that installer put the new thermostats in.  They aren't integrated into Control4 yet, but not that is all that has to be done.

The reason it is weird is I must not know enough about how these dealers make money.  In construction the markup isn't the money maker, it is the labor.  When I was doing computer service for businesses, it was my labor that made the money not the parts I resold to them.

[turtle2472]

I have a new question about WiFi connected devices paired with Control4.  When using a driver to integrate with Control4 do they provide any additional security?  Is the connection still unencrypted and as vulnerable as if I just did a device and an app on my phone?

Example being if I buy a WeMo switch and the driver from Chowmain would that be more secure over buying the same switch and using the standard app?

IoT network/WiFi devices being horrible security risks normally means I don't want to use them, but if they are encrypted like HomeKit does then maybe they are worth looking at as an option to integrate. 

[msgreenf]

The security of WeMo is what it is. It uses UPnp so that's what the chow mein driver is using on the local network

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[Cyknight]

5 hours ago, turtle2472 said:

would that be more secure over buying the same switch and using the standard app?

Can't speak for the specific driver, but the receiving DEVICE doesn't change it's security (not in HomeKit either for many of them). The C4 system itself is more closed off, and you're not likely to cause and concerns on that end of things.

But no C4 as such doesn't integrate on any 'special' level with it's own encryption

 

On 6/25/2020 at 6:46 AM, turtle2472 said:

 If I buy one or two switches at a time and have him install them he would make more on the labor than markup on the devices.

My assumption is that (s)he works as a dealer, and just doesn't want to take the responsibility on installing items not provided by him/her.

Wouldn't do it either, don't need the headache. Bad dimmer burns the house down and dealer installed it (likely not an electrician) from an unknown source? Wouldn't want that legal battle.

[zaphod]

Devices that you can control via C4 generally have an API of some sort that is accessible via the network - either local or cloud based.  The security has nothing to do with C4, it depends on the security model used by the device.  I believe some devices require authentication and supply tokens, and some do not. 

 

[turtle2472]

Great answers guys.  Thank you very much.  I'm getting a much better understanding of how the communications works with C4 and any other device.

At this point, I may just run an isolated VLAN for those IoT devices that connect to the controller.  This would sandbox them and still allow the control I'm looking to have.

[Bmwbball88]

10 hours ago, turtle2472 said:

Great answers guys.  Thank you very much.  I'm getting a much better understanding of how the communications works with C4 and any other device.

At this point, I may just run an isolated VLAN for those IoT devices that connect to the controller.  This would sandbox them and still allow the control I'm looking to have.

Yup that is what I do.  No problems at all running all this IOT stuff in its own little playground.  Let’s me define access rules and also just a little more piece of mind also.