C4 Newbie

[BertieB]

Hi,

I have inherited a Control4 system in our new house and slowly getting my head around it. There are a number of things that don’t work, such as alarm integration, gate integration, automations and references to the old occupants.

In addition the 4Sight licence has just expired so Alexa control and When -> Then has just stopped working.

I work in technology and have a pretty good understanding of technology (programming and networks) so having to rely on a dealer doesn’t really work for me. Especially as my local ones (including the one that installed it) all seem to be busy.

I have built a Home Assistant instance and have integrated it to the lights using the Control4, which works ok - but it isn’t able to access other features (like relays, motion sensors and alarm)

So I think my plan is:

• get access to Composer Home Edition, so I can start to take control of things - this seems to be easier said than done though, as you have to go through a dealer?
• Start replacing some of the direct integrations (like relays) with more open versions so I can integrate with Home Assistant e.g. Shelly
• keep C4 for the lighting, as the wiring is already in place around a 400 year old house
• I don’t use the video and audio streaming as mostly already have direct streaming with Sonos and Firesticks

All help and advice gratefully received!

[Andrew luecke]

1 hour ago, BertieB said:

Hi,

I have inherited a Control4 system in our new house and slowly getting my head around it. There are a number of things that don’t work, such as alarm integration, gate integration, automations and references to the old occupants.

In addition the 4Sight licence has just expired so Alexa control and When -> Then has just stopped working.

I work in technology and have a pretty good understanding of technology (programming and networks) so having to rely on a dealer doesn’t really work for me. Especially as my local ones (including the one that installed it) all seem to be busy.

I have built a Home Assistant instance and have integrated it to the lights using the Control4, which works ok - but it isn’t able to access other features (like relays, motion sensors and alarm)

So I think my plan is:

• get access to Composer Home Edition, so I can start to take control of things - this seems to be easier said than done though, as you have to go through a dealer?
• Start replacing some of the direct integrations (like relays) with more open versions so I can integrate with Home Assistant e.g. Shelly
• keep C4 for the lighting, as the wiring is already in place around a 400 year old house
• I don’t use the video and audio streaming as mostly already have direct streaming with Sonos and Firesticks

All help and advice gratefully received!

Huw

Firstly, Any integration between Control4 and Home Assistance isn't official. So, it isn't a good long term solution mixing the two imho, especially since Control4 is aware of the dodgy integration. The integration appears to be a hacked protocol, and it's probably breaking soon.. No point of having home automation if you can't rely on it (trust me, I have experience with that lol).. 

It really comes down to whether the cost of replacing the system to be native to HA makes sense.

In practice, how often would you be installing and uninstalling drivers? That's really the main limitation of Composer HE...

 

If you generate a list of what is wired where, IP's, controller mac addresses and what they connect to, it will probably be cheaper, to just get assistance from an online dealer (I think installers like @chopedogg88 handle a lot of online stuff). They can just install the drivers then and bind the connections, and you can just when>>then or add programming for whatever you want.

If like many of us you've built your own NAS for instance, keep in mind it always seems like a great idea and a great money saver, with great flexibility to have a custom solution, but in practice, it often turns out easier to just switch to the guaranteed solution (my mate who built a NAS which used RAID via BtrFS can attest to that, and my NAS turned out to be a near disaster too). Home automation doesn't work well if you fiddle with it a lot (so for that reason, I understand it sounds like the dealer model is limiting, especially as power users, but in practice, it isn't a good idea to be constantly adding / removing drivers anyway. Also, there is an auto-update mechanism built in to allow drivers to update themselves anyway).

 

That being said, I can't say anything bad about Shelly (I wrote a Control4 Shelly driver) or Control4 lighting. In practice, you'll be happy with either one.. In fact, Shelly benefits from products like configurable keypads and control4 benefits from products like the Shelly button and Shelly TRV

[Pncik]

1 hour ago, Andrew luecke said:

Firstly, Any integration between Control4 and Home Assistance isn't official. So, it isn't a good long term solution mixing the two imho, especially since Control4 is aware of the dodgy integration. The integration appears to be a hacked protocol, and it's probably breaking soon.. No point of having home automation if you can't rely on it (trust me, I have experience with that lol).. 

It really comes down to whether the cost of replacing the system to be native to HA makes sense.

In practice, how often would you be installing and uninstalling drivers? That's really the main limitation of Composer HE...

 

If you generate a list of what is wired where, IP's, controller mac addresses and what they connect to, it will probably be cheaper, to just get assistance from an online dealer (I think installers like @chopedogg88 handle a lot of online stuff). They can just install the drivers then and bind the connections, and you can just when>>then or add programming for whatever you want.

If like many of us you've built your own NAS for instance, keep in mind it always seems like a great idea and a great money saver, with great flexibility to have a custom solution, but in practice, it often turns out easier to just switch to the guaranteed solution (my mate who built a NAS which used RAID via BtrFS can attest to that, and my NAS turned out to be a near disaster too). Home automation doesn't work well if you fiddle with it a lot (so for that reason, I understand it sounds like the dealer model is limiting, especially as power users, but in practice, it isn't a good idea to be constantly adding / removing drivers anyway. Also, there is an auto-update mechanism built in to allow drivers to update themselves anyway).

 

That being said, I can't say anything bad about Shelly (I wrote a Control4 Shelly driver) or Control4 lighting. In practice, you'll be happy with either one.. In fact, Shelly benefits from products like configurable keypads and control4 benefits from products like the Shelly button and Shelly TRV

I use HA and have just started test Control4.

What is the ‘dodgy’ integration? Only thing I have found is simple HTTP access to Control4 system which I see uses standard C4 server sockets, how and why would Control4 shut this down?

Thanks help.

[wnpublic]

2 hours ago, Pncik said:

I use HA and have just started test Control4.

What is the ‘dodgy’ integration? Only thing I have found is simple HTTP access to Control4 system which I see uses standard C4 server sockets, how and why would Control4 shut this down?

Thanks help.

Welcome.  The integration is not dodgy, it is quite stable and works well for lights, but it does seem to have a target on its back for at least one apparent employee of C4. You will find that discussion here beginning on page 4 or so  

Why?  Seemingly because they are devoting time to swatting gnats (an unofficial integration used by like 70 people) rather than fixing the big problems. 
 

Now, on to your larger post. Getting HE is a good idea to see if it does what you need (you will probably hate the interface and programming model unless you just travelled here from 1998).  Any dealer can get you the license key for $150 I think. But if it works for you, your plan will be good as long as the HA integration remains. If it goes away you have at least two options:  

1. Strip out the c4 switches. Unless you have panelized lighting, there’s no wiring, its all zigbee proprietary wireless.  You can just remove them and replace with whatever open solution you want. Since you didn’t pay for the initial cost, but just took it with the house, you don’t really have a sunk cost problem. You can do what you want. 
2.  I believe there is a driver based C4 solution to integrate with HA from berto but it requires some mqtt setup.  I haven’t investigated that closely. 
 

Your plan sounds good to me. It’s what I’ve done, mostly. I’ve been very happy with it. 

[Pncik]

46 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

Welcome.  The integration is not dodgy, it is quite stable and works well for lights, but it does seem to have a target on its back for at least one apparent employee of C4. You will find that discussion here beginning on page 4 or so  

Why?  Seemingly because they are devoting time to swatting gnats (an unofficial integration used by like 70 people) rather than fixing the big problems. 
 

Now, on to your larger post. Getting HE is a good idea to see if it does what you need (you will probably hate the interface and programming model unless you just travelled here from 1998).  Any dealer can get you the license key for $150 I think. But if it works for you, your plan will be good as long as the HA integration remains. If it goes away you have at least two options:  

1. Strip out the c4 switches. Unless you have panelized lighting, there’s no wiring, its all zigbee proprietary wireless.  You can just remove them and replace with whatever open solution you want. Since you didn’t pay for the initial cost, but just took it with the house, you don’t really have a sunk cost problem. You can do what you want. 
2.  I believe there is a driver based C4 solution to integrate with HA from berto but it requires some mqtt setup.  I haven’t investigated that closely. 
 

Your plan sounds good to me. It’s what I’ve done, mostly. I’ve been very happy with it. 

I don’t understand why, or more important how, Control4 get rid of integration? It uses simple HTTP server from Control4 web driver which has nothing do with HA. Web driver can be use for lots of things not just HA.

Anyway better to integrate MQTT for HA, realtime and fast like most of HA integration.

I look berto but better wait for version 2 release so can write own MQTT integration for just HA.

[zaphod]

6 hours ago, BertieB said:

So I think my plan is:

• get access to Composer Home Edition, so I can start to take control of things - this seems to be easier said than done though, as you have to go through a dealer?

Google is your friend, and it isn't like you are going to JAIL if you BREAK into Control4.

[david@berto.co.uk]

4 hours ago, Pncik said:

I use HA and have just started test Control4.

What is the ‘dodgy’ integration? Only thing I have found is simple HTTP access to Control4 system which I see uses standard C4 server sockets, how and why would Control4 shut this down?

Thanks help.

PM me you email and I’ll send you SDK details. 
 

v2 is still beta but the area your looking to develop in, MQTT, is complete. 

[Andrew luecke]

4 hours ago, Pncik said:

I don’t understand why, or more important how, Control4 get rid of integration? It uses simple HTTP server from Control4 web driver which has nothing do with HA. Web driver can be use for lots of things not just HA.

Anyway better to integrate MQTT for HA, realtime and fast like most of HA integration.

I look berto but better wait for version 2 release so can write own MQTT integration for just HA.

Depends on which integration you're looking at.. 

[DanITman]

9 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Firstly, Any integration between Control4 and Home Assistance isn't official. So, it isn't a good long term solution mixing the two imho, especially since Control4 is aware of the dodgy integration. The integration appears to be a hacked protocol, and it's probably breaking soon.. No point of having home automation if you can't rely on it (trust me, I have experience with that lol).. 

I wouldn't call it a hacked protocol.  Its the protocol the mobile app uses.  Many unofficial APIs are written this way and it becomes a cat / mouse game to block.  It isn't easy to block.  MyQ is a great example.  Every change MyQ makes and the unofficial APIs are updated pretty quickly.  I'm sure Control4 knows that these API calls can be duplicated.  Lots of the c4 ecosystem (mobile app, composer express, sysman) uses these calls and it would require a large effort to change them.  Updating the security might be a good stop-gap but it won't take long to sniff them again. 

[DanITman]

6 hours ago, wnpublic said:

1. Strip out the c4 switches. Unless you have panelized lighting, there’s no wiring, its all zigbee proprietary wireless.  You can just remove them and replace with whatever open solution you want. Since you didn’t pay for the initial cost, but just took it with the house, you don’t really have a sunk cost problem. You can do what you want. 

I disagree on the lighting.  I think investing in another lighting solution would be expensive and not necessary. Control4 lighting works well and since its already installed. 

[Andrew luecke]

29 minutes ago, DanITman said:

I wouldn't call it a hacked protocol.  Its the protocol the mobile app uses.  Many unofficial APIs are written this way and it becomes a cat / mouse game to block.  It isn't easy to block.  MyQ is a great example.  Every change MyQ makes and the unofficial APIs are updated pretty quickly.  I'm sure Control4 knows that these API calls can be duplicated.  Lots of the c4 ecosystem (mobile app, composer express, sysman) uses these calls and it would require a large effort to change them.  Updating the security might be a good stop-gap but it won't take long to sniff them again. 

Which imho comes down to whether you want a reliable system or not.  It's a tradeoff between gain and potential risk. 

 But, it's not just the authentication I'm talking about tbh at this time.. 

[Andrew luecke]

27 minutes ago, DanITman said:

I disagree on the lighting.  I think investing in another lighting solution would be expensive and not necessary. Control4 lighting works well and since its already installed. 

I totally agree. It also depends on what kind of lighting equipment is installed. I Love shelly, but no configurable keypad equivalent (yet), but similarly, shelly does things Control4 lighting won't. Combining more than one system is a good idea in some cases imho.

People need to also consider how often their Home automation programming needs altering. I still think it's a great idea to get a quote from an online installer first too (it may end up cheap anyway).

 

[DanITman]

28 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

But, it's not just the authentication I'm talking about tbh at this time.. 

What do you mean?

[wnpublic]

1 hour ago, DanITman said:

I disagree on the lighting.  I think investing in another lighting solution would be expensive and not necessary. Control4 lighting works well and since its already installed. 

You missed the point.  OP wants to use HA for everything else, while using C4 for lighting only.  That's what I've been doing.  My answer concerned his options if the current integration HA-C$ integration is taken away.  Stripping out the C4 is a viable solution in that case. 

[wnpublic]

1 hour ago, Andrew luecke said:

Which imho comes down to whether you want a reliable system or not.  It's a tradeoff between gain and potential risk. 

 But, it's not just the authentication I'm talking about tbh at this time.. 

i have no idea what you're talking about, in either sentence.

[DanITman]

49 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

You missed the point.  OP wants to use HA for everything else, while using C4 for lighting only.  That's what I've been doing.  My answer concerned his options if the current integration HA-C$ integration is taken away.  Stripping out the C4 is a viable solution in that case. 

I see, that makes sense.  

[Andrew luecke]

2 hours ago, wnpublic said:

i have no idea what you're talking about, in either sentence.

That's ok..

[Pncik]

11 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Depends on which integration you're looking at.. 

I refer this, https://github.com/itsfrosty/control4-2way-web-driver

How can Control4 stop driver like this and why? It not use just for HA.

[Andrew luecke]

15 minutes ago, Pncik said:

I refer this, https://github.com/itsfrosty/control4-2way-web-driver

How can Control4 stop driver like this and why? It not use just for HA.

That one was developed by Lukas, so works differently to the one I was referring to. 

[BertieB]

Hi OP here

Thanks for the useful feedback.

A few comments & observations…in no particular order:

• Quite a lot of emotion around some of these threads! 
• The Home Assistant integration I'm using is this one https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/control4/ - please don't turn it off   I've just noticed it say you need to be on 3.0+ - which I'm not 
• Most of my lights are (I think) wired to 3 x C4-DIN-8DIM-E - so I guess that unpicking that will incur some cost - so can't see the point of that…unless they break!
• Unfortunately not all of the lights are wired into there, probably as they are at the top of the house, so if I want to automate the remainder then I will have a mixed environment which will require integration
• There’s some talk about the stability of C4. To be honest, it’s not been that stable for me so far. Now that might be due to the original installation, or more likely the ongoing maintenance. For example it is on v2.10 - though I’m not sure on the implications of that. As I can’t currently do anything to the system myself, that implies that I have to pay a dealer to carry out regular maintenance to keep things up to date - with the risk that integrations fail. That sounds like an unbounded hourly rate kind of job
• I’d be happy to get quotes for implementing what I want - but at this stage I’m not really sure what I want. I’m new to automation - but I can see that might be additional devices in the future: power generation, more sensors, better cameras, better heating thermostats, locks etc - with automation around that. I know all too well from experience that’s a tricky requirement to scope and cost and possibly get someone interested in if you do it piecemeal
• I’m interested in how many dealers are interested in small pieces of random work rather than big installations? and what the going rate is
• My first hurdle seems to be that no one seems keen to sell me Composer HE - original dealer brushed it off 
• I won’t mention the surprise that the gate intercom can’t be recorded - as that seems to have been done to death in another thread! 
• It all has to be useable by the family - so Alexa integration is (probably) key to it all - the C4 / Alexa integration I had working could only see lights though 
• I'm aware of the pros and cos of niche OS and "professional products" - I used to have a load of Squeezebox products - which were brilliant - but after the were taken over by Logitech they became harder and harder to use (by the non-techies) - so I ended up going down the Sonos route....now of course there are complaints from people who spent a lot of money of Sonos products to find out they are no longer supported and are expensive bricks

^ sorry that's all a bit random - it's been a long (working) day 

I have a dealer / electrician coming over next week so I will see where we go from there

Thanks all - you might see me around!