Upgrading a 9 Year Old System - Best Practices?

[txfanatic]

So the old Audio Matrix went out (and not a power supply issue).  Given the age, and possibility of doing an addition, I wanted to plan better this system than the one when I initially built the house 9 years ago.  Probably going to change the dealer as I haven't been impressed with follow ups (and have paid 9 years of alarm system monitoring through their company, but unsure if cellular alarm actually works).

The home setup I have currently is as follows:
HC800 with a separate I/O device running 2.10.2 (I think)

Leaf 4x4 Video Matrix - currently full on the inputs and 3 tv outputs (had a fourth but the outdoor setup didn't work well)

C4 Audio Matrix 16x16 driving two C4 8 channel Amps...3 are bridged to give 13 zones of audio (the 3 outdoor zones are twice as powerful)

Sony STR2800 - Runs the main room audio/tv

Every light is on a C4 switch, as is the alarm, Somfy blinds, one motion sensor and the garage door 

5 Ring Cameras/Doorbell using the Control4 driver 

 

Anyways, I am planning on adding potentially 3-4 TVs (so 6-7 total) plus 3 more zones of audio so the main things I am thinking about doing are replacing the HC800, Leaf 4x4 and the Audio Matrix (Audio Matrix needs to be done stat).  What I find sort of ridiculous is how the different audio outputs from the Roku, Apple TV, HC800, DVD player, Sonos player all have to be split to go to the Sony STR2800 and the Audio 16x16 Matrix.  What I would like to do is have the new Video Matrix take in HDMI and output sound digitally into the Audio Matrix, which then would be send digital audio directly into the Sony and analog into the powered Amps for the other 13 zones.  As much as I would like this to be an unlimited budget project, alas, want to be smart about where I spend on this...based on the research I've done on other posts, could I use a 8x8 No Hassle 8x16 Video Matrix that takes in all the different devices (would love to get a second Roku) that feeds digital sound out directly to an audio matrix.  Saw the ProAudio Matrix looked good for taking in digital...does it down convert to analog for the other zones?  Also is this ideal or am I wanting something that is not necessary.

Thank you

[cnicholson]

I used to have a set-up similar to your current one.  For new house, I decided against video matrix / distribution.  I just put an Apple TV behind most TVs and do audio backhaul to audio matrix.   Works great.   For the very rare occasions where i want to send sync'ed common video feed to multiple TV's, I added a cheap ($33/endpoint) IP one-to-many system.  It's 1080P60, not 4K, but does the job for me.

So I guess threshold Q is: do you really need a video matrix at all? 

[Amr]

It’s really depends on how many sources you are distributing and the cost associated, I have to have a video matrix now as I have many “paid” sources that can’t be replicated at 13 locations and if I can, it will cost more than a matrix!

[txfanatic]

Great question on whether I need a matrix...I guess since I want the sound to come out of the speakers around the house, I didn't realize audio backhaul is easy to do? 

I basically use: Hulu, Youtube TV, Prime, etc via a Roku (and have an Apple TV that is connected as a backup) and rarely use the DVD player (actually haven't used that in like 8 years).  The controller though has video (right now I don't use that either...but figured with the updated one maybe it might be nice) and used to have a Tivo that allowed me to connect an antenna (but that died this past year too and I figured I should probably move away from it)

I guess having 6-7 tvs with a Roku or AppleTV is cheaper for sure, but can the remote control the system and the sound come from the room speakers?

Also not related, does that PulseEight ProAudio Matrix downgrade from digital inputs to analog outputs (and vice versa)?

[Matt Lowe]

I am sure there is a model of the pulse eight that does down mixing. With the matrix you essential would one streaming device per family member. Then you can access your personal box from anywhere in the house. 

with out it and having the boxes locally at the tv, you could pull the audio from the tv back to your central audio matrix. the triad matrix 16x16 would allow for 8 digital tv connections. If you need surround sound you will still need a more traditional connect to an AVR for a more reliable experience. 

Having the matrix allows you to transfer rooms much more easily as well. Tired of watching the movie in one room pause and pick up exactly where you left off in another room with essentially 4 or less button presses.

a matrix will not be a cheaper solution for many that are using streaming services but it does have its advantages. If you are streaming you can also look into ip based distribution and have a lot more reliability and flexibility and have options like PIP and grid view 

[SpencerT]

On 1/1/2023 at 9:55 PM, txfanatic said:

does that PulseEight ProAudio Matrix downgrade from digital inputs to analog outputs (and vice versa)?

Digital inputs to analog output, no problem. 

Digital inputs to digital output, no problem. 

Analog inputs to analog outputs no problem. 

Analog inputs to digital outputs is a little finicky, in my experience.

According to the manual, Analog to Digital is done by creating a mirror on the digital output of the corresponding analog output (i.e. coax out 1 mirrors analog out 1).

I played with this when we first put the matrix in c4 because I was running digital amps but didn't have any luck getting it to work (2 channel audio). Opened a ticket with pulseeight but gave up on it before I heard back.  Pulseeight support is excellent, btw, I just put a work-around in.

My issue was supposedly a firmware bug on this specific matrix with the c4 driver version (I'm on a pre pulseeight Zektor proaudio AUD1600 that takes different firmware and c4 driver version). They sent me both, I upgraded, fixed a few other issues but never tested the conversion to digital again.

If I remember correctly, besides the mirror, the corresponding analog and digital outputs need to be "joined" together as a single zone (this was mentioned on my support call).

Here is the snippet from the manual..

[zaphod]

18 hours ago, txfanatic said:

Great question on whether I need a matrix...I guess since I want the sound to come out of the speakers around the house, I didn't realize audio backhaul is easy to do?

I guess having 6-7 tvs with a Roku or AppleTV is cheaper for sure, but can the remote control the system and the sound come from the room speakers?

Digital or Analog backhaul audio is easy as long as you have a spare ethernet cable.  You can use relatively inexpensive baluns/converters to do this.  Google "audio over ethernet".  But in every room you have to have a spare ethernet drop to do the backhaul as it is not travelling over your LAN, it is using the ethernet wiring for sending other signals.

Your C4 remote control can control anything that is on the system, even if they are not in the same physical room.  That is very common with Control4.  So you can adjust the volume on the TV in your kitchen using a C4 remote that is actually controlling an amp on the rack in your basement that drives speakers in your kitchen.  Or you can use the remote to control the Roku which could be in the kitchen .  Roku plays very well with Control4, unlike some others.  The problem with Rokus is that they typically do not have audio outputs so if you are sending the audio back to your rack you have to be creative and split the audio out of the HDMI, or use a TV audio output.

[txfanatic]

On 1/2/2023 at 4:41 PM, SpencerT said:

Digital inputs to analog output, no problem. 

Digital inputs to digital output, no problem.

Analog inputs to analog outputs no problem. 

Analog inputs to digital outputs is a little finicky, in my experience.

According to the manual, Analog to Digital is done by creating a mirror on the digital output of the corresponding analog output (i.e. coax out 1 mirrors analog out 1).

 

 

This is super helpful...seems like it would simplify the Audio Matrix from what it is right now (where everything is split up before it heads to the Audio Matrix and the Home Theater Receiver).  Hopefully whoever sets this up can get my sound working properly for all my video feeds.

Thank you

[txfanatic]

On 1/2/2023 at 5:07 PM, zaphod said:

Digital or Analog backhaul audio is easy as long as you have a spare ethernet cable.  You can use relatively inexpensive baluns/converters to do this.  Google "audio over ethernet".  But in every room you have to have a spare ethernet drop to do the backhaul as it is not travelling over your LAN, it is using the ethernet wiring for sending other signals.

Your C4 remote control can control anything that is on the system, even if they are not in the same physical room.  That is very common with Control4. 

Thank you, this is helpful as well...I do have spare ethernet ports at each TV to backhaul them, but I feel if there are 6 tvs to backhaul from that would be a lot of inputs back to the matrix (doable though).

Ah yes, the C4 remote is good for control...i forgot that they can be anywhere...that is good to remember.  I guess I need to see the cost of the video matrix (the NoHassle one is on Amazon, so no issue seeing that) and comparing that to the cost of putting in 6 Rokus/Backhaul Audio.

Btw, since you mentioned that Rokus are good...is it better than AppleTVs (ie would you even put in an AppleTV?)

Thank you!

[zaphod]

Dealers can chime in but Roku has been the most rock solid for IP control and their API stays constant.  People have had issues with AppleTV from time to time as Apple tends to not care about playing well with others.

[lippavisual]

And Roku offers AirPlay too, so we’ve found there’s zero reason to not use the Roku for streaming services. 

[cnicholson]

On 1/2/2023 at 1:41 PM, SpencerT said:

Analog inputs to digital outputs is a little finicky, in my experience.

According to the manual, Analog to Digital is done by creating a mirror on the digital output of the corresponding analog output (i.e. coax out 1 mirrors analog out 1).

I have the Pulse Eight ProAudio32.   It does Digital to Analog conversion BUT NOT Analog to Digital conversion.   So if you try to switch an analog input to a digital output, it won't work--- even though Control4 considers this a valid path.   Different Pulse Eight models may have different limitations.  See Screen grab from ProAudio32 driver documentation.

Since most of my inputs are digital, this is not a major problem.  For the few that are analog, I put cheap ($20-$30 IIRC) Amazon ADC (analog to digital converters) between source and matrix (using path setter driver) and it works great.   Basically I try to make ALL of my inputs digital.  Audiophiles may have a heart attack, but I can't hear any quality degradation.   Most of my sources are TV backhaul, which are digital to begin with.  I do worry about edge cases where the Core5 uses analog outputs (after running out of digital ones) to try to reach a digital output port, so I might put ADC converters on those paths, too.  

I'm not sure how "mirroring" works, but my Analog outputs are full so not really an option for me (lots an lots of zones).

 

[SpencerT]

Yeah, this is that mirror situation I couldn't get working. I'm wondering if you have to setup the mirror (i.e. mirror digital out 1 to analog out 1), then select the analog output 1 as your path (even though your connection is through coax on the digital output). I might play with it again.

[cnicholson]

19 hours ago, SpencerT said:

Yeah, this is that mirror situation I couldn't get working. I'm wondering if you have to setup the mirror (i.e. mirror digital out 1 to analog out 1), then select the analog output 1 as your path (even though your connection is through coax on the digital output). I might play with it again.

Based on your diagram above on mirroring function, that would seem to be a good strategy since it says (when mirroring is enabled) "...by default, analog outputs will be mirrored on the coax side."   I'm not using mirroring as I am trying to squeeze more zones through my matrix.  Kudos to Pulse Eight for honesty in product naming.  You seem to be able to get FULL features out of the 16 or 32 zones they claim but can get EVEN MORE with reduced feature set.

But, to the OP: Pulse Eight seems to support DAC (Stereo PCM, no down-mixing ) and ADC for the advertised number of zones (perhaps with a bit of configuration to specify the correct path through matrix for Analog inputs being switched to Digital outputs).