Some advice for Control4 diy'ers

[ILoveC4]

When I say that, I mean the hardware seems solid. My iPods are tough, the iPhone seems well built, the Ti laptop seems rock solid, it just seems like they're well built. The last Mac computer I had was one of those Tangerine colored notebooks, and that was about 10 or 12 years ago. I don't remember the assembly being good or bad, I just remember having incompatibility issues.

Let's not turn this into an Apple thread, urbanmark will further accuse of me throwing flame at Apple =)

[wappinghigh]

EDIT: It seems like this would be even easier to do with Control4 products! You could pull up the GUI on your TV and tell the system you just bought a new SR-250. It could ask you what room the SR-250 will reside in, and tell you how to identify it. Once it identified, hit okay on the GUI, and there you go. I have to see them moving in this direction to a certain extent, it just makes too much sense (unless they're trying to protect these revenue's for the dealer base).

Yep. But why stop there? How easy would it be to add other small devices into our projects. Like another Tstat, speaker point, or Kwikset lock. To have to get a dealer out to do this (and wait the obligitory 2-4 weeks) every time we want to spend a bit more money on the product...is just plain stupid. Even if we still had to order through the dealer. No problem with that: I'd be happy with paying top dollar. But where is the sense in this "having to get the dealer to INSTALL absolutely everything" model? How does this drive added sales for the C4 product? This is plain daft IMHO.

[ILoveC4]

EDIT: It seems like this would be even easier to do with Control4 products! You could pull up the GUI on your TV and tell the system you just bought a new SR-250. It could ask you what room the SR-250 will reside in' date=' and tell you how to identify it. Once it identified, hit okay on the GUI, and there you go. I have to see them moving in this direction to a certain extent, it just makes too much sense (unless they're trying to protect these revenue's for the dealer base).[/quote']

Yep. But why stop there? How easy would it be to add other small devices into our projects. Like another Tstat, speaker point, or Kwikset lock. To have to get a dealer out to do this (and wait the obligitory 2-4 weeks) every time we want to spend a bit more money on the product...is just plain stupid. Even if we still had to order through the dealer. I'd be happy with paying top dollar for that. Where is the sense in this "having to get the dealer to install absolutely everything" model? How does this drive added sales for the C4 product? This is plain daft IMHO.

I agree. I just used the SR-250 as an example. I used a media player as an example earlier in the post. This seems like it could be easily done with just about everything, including smaller controllers!

[wappinghigh]

Is anybody listening at Control4 here?

Customer wants to buy more C4 product. Customer happy to pay RRP. Customer wants to spend more money on C4 gear. Customer happy to buy through dealer. But customer not happy to wait 4 weeks for dealer to turn up, then be charged for the "privilege", just for a simple plug in and play install of another small device.

[takitezsdc]

Is anybody listening at Control4 here?

Customer wants to buy more C4 product. Customer happy to pay RRP. Customer wants to spend more money on C4 gear. Customer happy to buy through dealer. But customer not happy to wait 4 weeks for dealer to turn up, then be charged for the "privilege", just for a simple plug in and play install of another small device.

RIGHT ON !!! I will not upgrade to 2.0 until I find a hack. PERIOD! I have had ComposerPRO since day one and i refuse to have a dealer ( even know mine is a great one) charge me or limit my access to MY SYSTEM! PERIOD.

Its so easy to get ComposerPro now, THATS why no one really has a problem! BUT wait and see...........once we are not allowed to make simple programing changes and / or add things we bought off ebay /smile then I am DONE! Selling it ALL!! DONE !! BUT what I am hearing is HE 2.0 will allow us to change basic programing ............it will not allow us to add equipment.........but I have a dealer that will install / add them NO CHARGE! So ...............wait and see!?

So C4 dont listen to us...........see what happens.

/wave

[dgbrown]

I have to say this crap rub's me the wrong way to no end: http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?pid=42235#p42235

Here we have an authorized C4 dealer hocking their wares (after market or otherwise) on this forum, and out of the other side of the dealer's mouths we have the protectionist non-sense going on in this thread.

What in the Good Lord's Name is going on here ? Where is Control4 in enforcing it's dealer agreements ? Why should customers on this thread be preyed upon like this by Control4's sole equipment channel - it's dealers ?

Why aren't the "good, reputable" dealers on this forum looking out for our best interests ?

IS: Harmony Interiors in Asheville NC, Columbia SC, and Charleston SC Sales: 800-942-5955 | sales@harmonyinteriors.com

Looking out for our collective best interest in selling us new gear that won't be warrantied or supported by them, and will likely go to someone outside their geographic service area ?

Riddle me this !

[thecodeman]

Why aren't the "good, reputable" dealers on this forum looking out for our best interests ?

What am I missing that I should be doing?

[dgbrown]

Don't spoil this Cody. You know exactly where I'm going with this. We have a dealer run site here that is fostering the resale of of C4 gear by authorized dealers contrary to C4's dealer agreement, which is a legal and binding contract in it's truest sense.

I don't mean to be a prick about this but after thumbing through all the non-sense on this thread and other threads for that matter on this topic, I'm left wondering: Why this is OK ?

I'm making a point here. Dealers feel free to frequent the forums to market and to soap box on this thread specifically and that's fine - but what about policing your own ?

This said, where's that squeaky wheel KJB ?

[thecodeman]

I'm making a point here. Dealers feel free to frequent the forums to market and to soap box on this thread specifically and that's fine - but what about policing your own ?

I have no moderation powers on this forum. Dan/ETC at CytexOne rarely moderate this site. I think it can go both ways - there are interesting discussions here, however you will see some dealers hocking their gear from time to time. You also see it on eBay. As to whether or not I take actions against that, it's my business. I'm not here to say what people should or should not do with their own money - but if someone calls us or emails us about something, we'll give them our advice. All we are here to do is help educate people about Control4. I have no intentions of "ruining" what you're doing or where this thread is going, but since you asked why dealers weren't looking out for your best intrests, I wanted to know how I could help.

*edit for spelling*

[dgbrown]

^ I appreciate your offer and concern but "Why is this ok ?"

If not by you, it does seem there's some kind of tacit approval here, if not a dual standard given the comments on this thread and others of a similar nature.

For the record, this was not directed specifically at you Cody, but since you replied to post#81 I'll hash this out with you if you like.

Edit: Spelling

[tilimil]

This looks very cool for those with the diy'er with the technical capability and time. Just thought I would pass this along to those still evaluating their options like me. CQC in combination with an omnipro controller, upb and russound/nuvo looks very compelling.

http://www.charmedquark.com/

[Seefour]

This looks very cool for those with the diy'er with the technical capability and time. Just thought I would pass this along to those still evaluating their options like me. CQC in combination with an omnipro controller, upb and russound/nuvo looks very compelling.

http://www.charmedquark.com/

Adding Cinemar Online http://www.cinemarsolutions.com/index.html

Cortexa http://www.cortexa.com/

All three are options to consider for DIY.

[ms2bmw]

This looks very cool for those with the diy'er with the technical capability and time. Just thought I would pass this along to those still evaluating their options like me. CQC in combination with an omnipro controller' date=' upb and russound/nuvo looks very compelling.

http://www.charmedquark.com/[/quote']

Adding Cinemar Online http://www.cinemarsolutions.com/index.html

Cortexa http://www.cortexa.com/

All three are options to consider for DIY.

I was heavily into CQC for the last three years before switching to C4 in my theater early this year and I can fairly say that it has a lot more capability than what C4 does today. Have a look at the CQC forum and see for yourself what DIY'ers have built.

[GoGo Delicious]

I was heavily into CQC for the last three years before switching to C4 in my theater early this year and I can fairly say that it has a lot more capability than what C4 does today.

Out of curiosity, why did you switch?

[rkuli]

GoGo,

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Crestron Prodigy line for the DIY community.

[GoGo Delicious]

GoGo,

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Crestron Prodigy line for the DIY community.

I posted the following on Page 2, I believe, of this thread.

Crestron does not support DIYer's at all. All sales and programming either goes through a Crestron dealer or CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) for programming only.

With that said, all Crestron training is free to the dealers. As a dealer I can sponsor a person, company or school and send them to the various Crestron classes at no cost and give them access to Crestron software. As far as a DIYer goes it's up to me as a dealer if I want to sponsor a DIYer (Maybe a DIYer wants to be a CAIP). Have I ever sponsored a DIYer? No, and I doubt that I will.

In order to become a Crestron Partner, CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) or participate in the A+ program a dealer has to sponsor the individual, company or school. Because of that requirement, I get quite a few requests from people if I would sponsor them, almost all have been for a CAIP, but so far I have turned them all down. The clients that I would sponsor, one the largest insurance companies in the U.S and the other is the largest school district in the U.S., have both turned down the offer to have their employees go to Crestron training and possibly become certified.

Back to the original question of ". . .thoughts on the Crestron Prodigy line for the DIY community." Allowing a client to do a DIY Prodigy system is up to me as a dealer. As I have stated above and in other threads it's up to each dealer on weather or not to allow the client access to the software or training. Other than my employees, I have not sponsored any individuals. The individual or potential client would have to make a very compelling case as to why I should 1) let them program their Prodigy system as a DIY & 2) give them access to software and training (Note: If I were to allow a client to do a Prodigy as a DIY solution I would first send them to Crestron training).

I hear the same thing over and over on why the DIY community is good for or necessary for C4 and it's always the same rhetoric such as;

1) DIYer's will spend more money on C4

2) DIYer's will figure out the bugs, do beta testing, etc.

3) I have spent $$$$$ of money I should have the ability to program my system

4) I'm a computer programmer/engineer/hacker so I know what I am doing (Note: Just because I can make a bowl of cereal does not make me a chef)

5) If I can program my own system I can show friends/family/etc what I can do and they will buy a C4 system

6) It's ridiculous to pay a dealer to add a new receiver/bluray/light switch/etc

7) C4 are you listening/do you care about the DIY community

The list goes on and on and on. But as a Crestron dealer none of the above would 1) be a compelling case to allow a potential client do a DIY Prodigy system & 2) nor is it a good enough reason for Control4 to allow end users access to the software.

To the DIYer's out there I think it's great you want to do your own system, I really do. But in all reality your looking at the wrong system, C4, Crestron and the other major brands will just not allow it. Stop banging your heads against a wall, shouting, screaming. It's not going to happen. As was suggested earlier DIYer's should look at CQC. There is a thread on AVS, started in 2006 and still being updated, where a member did his whole house as a DIY with CQC and other software. The thread is called IVB's HA Progress. I suggest that you read it. It's quite long but very detailed.

[ms2bmw]

I was heavily into CQC for the last three years before switching to C4 in my theater early this year and I can fairly say that it has a lot more capability than what C4 does today.

Out of curiosity' date=' why did you switch?[/quote']

Very good question and something I was expecting

Here are my three main reasons:

1. Lack of time to add features to my system. When I first started using CQC, I didn't have too much stuff going on at work but with recent changes, I had to work more hours during evenings and weekends to deal with teams around the globe. This leaves very little time for family and hobbies so had to rearrange priorities and this was one of the things that got dropped.

2. CQC is a windows based application and as such does not have the specialized hardware that C4 or any automation company has. Vidabox is a partner but the last time I checked they only dealt with custom pc with cqc pre-installed and touchscreens. I like the idea of having a remote that controls everything.

3. Relying on Windows for automation is not appealing. Sure it works as long as you don't keep installing patches and updates but having a dedicated PC just to run an automation software to me is overkill. I would prefer a light weight embedded OS for these types of systems. No mess no fuss.

If CQC had hardware like C4, I could have probably stayed put and made it work

[ILoveC4]

CQC seems to me like a lot of work, both initially and on-going.

[GoGo Delicious]

CQC seems to me like a lot of work, both initially and on-going.

Thats does not make sense if you are in favor of a DIY solution. Control4 would be the same way if it went the DIY route. The learning curve to initially get it going and the on-going programing to make sure it's running right is going to take a lot of time & work. Any DIY project weather it's a CQC based system or C4 will take a lot of work, both initially and on-going.

[CFUG]

GoGo' date='

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Crestron Prodigy line for the DIY community.[/quote']

I posted the following on Page 2, I believe, of this thread.

Crestron does not support DIYer's at all. All sales and programming either goes through a Crestron dealer or CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) for programming only.

With that said, all Crestron training is free to the dealers. As a dealer I can sponsor a person, company or school and send them to the various Crestron classes at no cost and give them access to Crestron software. As far as a DIYer goes it's up to me as a dealer if I want to sponsor a DIYer (Maybe a DIYer wants to be a CAIP). Have I ever sponsored a DIYer? No, and I doubt that I will.

In order to become a Crestron Partner, CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) or participate in the A+ program a dealer has to sponsor the individual, company or school. Because of that requirement, I get quite a few requests from people if I would sponsor them, almost all have been for a CAIP, but so far I have turned them all down. The clients that I would sponsor, one the largest insurance companies in the U.S and the other is the largest school district in the U.S., have both turned down the offer to have their employees go to Crestron training and possibly become certified.

Back to the original question of ". . .thoughts on the Crestron Prodigy line for the DIY community." Allowing a client to do a DIY Prodigy system is up to me as a dealer. As I have stated above and in other threads it's up to each dealer on weather or not to allow the client access to the software or training. Other than my employees, I have not sponsored any individuals. The individual or potential client would have to make a very compelling case as to why I should 1) let them program their Prodigy system as a DIY & 2) give them access to software and training (Note: If I were to allow a client to do a Prodigy as a DIY solution I would first send them to Crestron training).

I hear the same thing over and over on why the DIY community is good for or necessary for C4 and it's always the same rhetoric such as;

1) DIYer's will spend more money on C4

2) DIYer's will figure out the bugs, do beta testing, etc.

3) I have spent $$$$$ of money I should have the ability to program my system

4) I'm a computer programmer/engineer/hacker so I know what I am doing (Note: Just because I can make a bowl of cereal does not make me a chef)

5) If I can program my own system I can show friends/family/etc what I can do and they will buy a C4 system

6) It's ridiculous to pay a dealer to add a new receiver/bluray/light switch/etc

7) C4 are you listening/do you care about the DIY community

The list goes on and on and on. But as a Crestron dealer none of the above would 1) be a compelling case to allow a potential client do a DIY Prodigy system & 2) nor is it a good enough reason for Control4 to allow end users access to the software.

To the DIYer's out there I think it's great you want to do your own system, I really do. But in all reality your looking at the wrong system, C4, Crestron and the other major brands will just not allow it. Stop banging your heads against a wall, shouting, screaming. It's not going to happen. As was suggested earlier DIYer's should look at CQC. There is a thread on AVS, started in 2006 and still being updated, where a member did his whole house as a DIY with CQC and other software. The thread is called IVB's HA Progress. I suggest that you read it. It's quite long but very detailed.

So, I'll ride coat-tails on this post. Besides, if I'd said this I would have been flammed beyond recognition.

[dgbrown]

^ Seems stereotypical, no. Wouldn't the metrics to gauge that depend on the individual ? There are plenty of dealers out there that have undergone training and just don't have the aptitude/background/desire/other to transition from what was the traditional CI market to what it has evolved to, and others who will not make it to where it's going.

With the technology headed into embedded CE, it will be interesting to see how this whole thing plays out.

Edit: Spelling

[urbanmark]

To the DIYer's out there I think it's great you want to do your own system, I really do. But in all reality your looking at the wrong system, C4, Crestron and the other major brands will just not allow it. Stop banging your heads against a wall, shouting, screaming. It's not going to happen.

GoGo Delicious... a well thought out post and a good summary of many of the same considerations C4 management must have also thought about when they introduced ComposerHE. In my mind, C4 is fairly far down the DIY path... certainly not 100%, but by making programming software available with ComposerHE they've demonstrated a willingness to listen to, and address the needs of end users (aka DIYers). I can now freely program my system, I just can't freely add new hardware.

I'm a relatively new customer and wasn't around when HE was introduced. But I take it introducing HE was a first in the industry for one of the major brands. What was the reaction from C4 dealers / C4 customers when then happened?

[GoGo Delicious]

In my mind, C4 is fairly far down the DIY path... certainly not 100%, but by making programming software available with ComposerHE they've demonstrated a willingness to listen to, and address the needs of end users (aka DIYers). I can now freely program my system, I just can't freely add new hardware.

I'm a relatively new customer and wasn't around when HE was introduced. But I take it introducing HE was a first in the industry for one of the major brands. What was the reaction from C4 dealers / C4 customers when then happened?

Crestron offers the same ability but instead of a software application like ComposerHE, the client makes the changes right on the main touch panel and are saved on the system controller.

There is a "Admin" page thats either password protected or requires a biometric finger scan, where the customer can change, on the fly, different scenarios, presents, scenes, etc. You can do pretty much anything except add hardware. For example you have a "Group" of lights that come on at sunset. On the Admin page you can add and remove lighting zones in this group, you can state what percentages what zones ramp to, etc. You can change your TP layout, background, theme, etc. The possibilities are endless and the changes do not require a hardware or system reboot.

[ILoveC4]

CQC seems to me like a lot of work' date=' both initially and on-going.[/quote']

Thats does not make sense if you are in favor of a DIY solution. Control4 would be the same way if it went the DIY route. The learning curve to initially get it going and the on-going programing to make sure it's running right is going to take a lot of time & work. Any DIY project weather it's a CQC based system or C4 will take a lot of work, both initially and on-going.

I tend to disagree. I am in favor of DIY, and Control4, and I don't feel it is the same....but that is an arguement for another day.

[xc420]

GoGo' date='

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Crestron Prodigy line for the DIY community.[/quote']

I posted the following on Page 2, I believe, of this thread.

Crestron does not support DIYer's at all. All sales and programming either goes through a Crestron dealer or CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) for programming only.

With that said, all Crestron training is free to the dealers. As a dealer I can sponsor a person, company or school and send them to the various Crestron classes at no cost and give them access to Crestron software. As far as a DIYer goes it's up to me as a dealer if I want to sponsor a DIYer (Maybe a DIYer wants to be a CAIP). Have I ever sponsored a DIYer? No, and I doubt that I will.

In order to become a Crestron Partner, CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) or participate in the A+ program a dealer has to sponsor the individual, company or school. Because of that requirement, I get quite a few requests from people if I would sponsor them, almost all have been for a CAIP, but so far I have turned them all down. The clients that I would sponsor, one the largest insurance companies in the U.S and the other is the largest school district in the U.S., have both turned down the offer to have their employees go to Crestron training and possibly become certified.

Back to the original question of ". . .thoughts on the Crestron Prodigy line for the DIY community." Allowing a client to do a DIY Prodigy system is up to me as a dealer. As I have stated above and in other threads it's up to each dealer on weather or not to allow the client access to the software or training. Other than my employees, I have not sponsored any individuals. The individual or potential client would have to make a very compelling case as to why I should 1) let them program their Prodigy system as a DIY & 2) give them access to software and training (Note: If I were to allow a client to do a Prodigy as a DIY solution I would first send them to Crestron training).

I hear the same thing over and over on why the DIY community is good for or necessary for C4 and it's always the same rhetoric such as;

1) DIYer's will spend more money on C4

2) DIYer's will figure out the bugs, do beta testing, etc.

3) I have spent $$$$$ of money I should have the ability to program my system

4) I'm a computer programmer/engineer/hacker so I know what I am doing (Note: Just because I can make a bowl of cereal does not make me a chef)

5) If I can program my own system I can show friends/family/etc what I can do and they will buy a C4 system

6) It's ridiculous to pay a dealer to add a new receiver/bluray/light switch/etc

7) C4 are you listening/do you care about the DIY community

The list goes on and on and on. But as a Crestron dealer none of the above would 1) be a compelling case to allow a potential client do a DIY Prodigy system & 2) nor is it a good enough reason for Control4 to allow end users access to the software.

To the DIYer's out there I think it's great you want to do your own system, I really do. But in all reality your looking at the wrong system, C4, Crestron and the other major brands will just not allow it. Stop banging your heads against a wall, shouting, screaming. It's not going to happen. As was suggested earlier DIYer's should look at CQC. There is a thread on AVS, started in 2006 and still being updated, where a member did his whole house as a DIY with CQC and other software. The thread is called IVB's HA Progress. I suggest that you read it. It's quite long but very detailed.

I respect your opinions, but I disagree.

RyanE has stated that Control4 listens to their customers and that's the reason why they decided to create ComposerHE. His words not mine. If nobody voiced their opinions ComposerHE would not exist.

Response to #4 is: Just because I chose to make a bowl of cereal doesn't mean I'm not a chef. (I think a fry cook at McDonald's is sufficient for Control4, not a chef.) I'm not trying to insult any Dealers, I'm sure there are certain bugs, workarounds, etc. that only they know from dealing with Control4 day in and day out. But overall it's a very easy system to get up and running.